smile4kenn:

JESUS IS 100% EQUAL WITH GOD The FATHER

Jesus came to earth as man and through the Virgin of virgins so that we will see him as complete man. He prayed to God as man and did everything as man so we can do same thing. He called God his father just like we do christain do today saying i am a child of God. Yes just same thing.

Trinity explains that God the Father, Jesus, Son of God, and Holy spirit is 100% equal because they make up GOd almighty.

I have studied the Trinity for so many years and i so much believe in the Trinity.

well said!!!



as for the rest of u, believe what u want to believe. remember, it's a free world!!

sage:

John 1:1 original rendering cannot contradict the rest of the bible. That would make the bible a false document. But the good news is that it does not. Il be back.

No problem waiting for your 'original rendering'.

d bible itself is contradictory

@sage.

You shouldnt diagree on what you don't know. have u well studied the bible. Bible is straight and not contradicting. [size=21pt]JESUS IS 100% EQUAL AS GOD THE FATHER. even the MOTHER OF MOTHERS>> VIRGIN oF VIRGINS, MORNING ROSE, QUEEN OF HEAVEN ( MY LOVELY MOTHER VIRGIN MARY) IS the MOTHER OF GOD[/size]

the bible contradicts.
it says one thing in the old testament and another in the new testament.

stimulus:

@KAG,

Are you not rather crying out against your own slant?

How can I be crying against "my own slant" by responding to your slant? By the way, what's my slant?

'Still showed the Jewish interpretation of the verse' - as pointing to who else than to the Messiah?

Again, a midrashic reading of the verse isn't the debate.

What then is the 'full and right interpretation of the verse'? Incase you missed it, here again are a few lines from the same link:

That's all that needed to be said from the onset in regards to my offering Isaiah 9:6 in answer to your initial question. The Jewish understanding of that verse simply points to the Messiah.

Again, the right interpretation: "For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—"

Second, some midrashic reading of the verse can interprete the verse as a messianic verse, but of course, that isn't and hasn't been the point. The point - and I've had to keep going over it for you, again and again - is and has always been that the portion of the verse you higlighted and thought meant the messiah would be the same as YHVH actually reads (according to the Jewish interpretation of the verse): The Mighty God is planning grace.

And this again is different from the Messiah?

It makes no difference.

I don't see any detraction other than your roundabout allusion to 'Jewish interpretation' in the attempt to see someone else in that verse. Throughout I've maintained the same thing; which you now have had to admit.

Let's see:

I asked: Which prophets in the OT indicated the son of God is God?

Stimulus: who was the prophet Isaiah referring to by the name "The mighty God"?

KAG: YHVH

Stimulus: What exactly is the "Jewish" translation of Isaiah 9:6?

KAG: For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—

Stimulus: In reference to the 'Jewish translation', who is being referred to as the Mighty God in that verse other than the Messiah?

KAG: I already told you: YHVH

As you can see, I was neither debating the implications of a midrashic reading nor was I debating any reference to a messiah. That you've decided to turn the line of discussion to whether Isaiah was predicting the messiah is a detraction.

Right then, could you please offer what in your context Zachariah 12:10 would be alluding to by the word 'pierced'?

Same question as above.

In my opinion, it could be anything from a slight to an insult.

I'm not so sure what you meant by 're-introduce' my earlier point on Isaiah 9. However, I've tried to be consistent with my position on that text; and have severally called your attention to the article on the website you offered.

You haven't been that consistent and I gave the website solely for the Jewish interpretation of the verse; stay focused.

Leaving out the midrashic reading, if it suits your argument, would the common interpretation otherwise be different from the very same thing argued all along - that it points to the Messiah?

Look, the debate is already long enough, but if you want to discuss the midrashic interpretation of Isaiah, how it pertains to a messiah and how the Christian messiah failed to fulfill any possible interpretation of the verse as a prophecy, then start a new thread. I'll participate and give my views. For now though, stay on topic.

Your honesty is quite a queer one as you've been circling round the very affirmation of the article on the website you offered. I wasn't playing 'injured party', try as much as you may have hoped so; and better luck on that if you've been snivelling on your 'irritation' and 'getting ridiculous' earlier.

Yeah, sure, pity when I posted the link I didn't say "hey, look at what the author of this article has to say on the issue of messiahship", I'm pretty sure I wrote, "see, Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9:6", but whatever. So, are you going to answer my question, or should I just put this to another of those misses?

I'm aware the Trinity means different things to many people; but I'm not one who assumes that God consists of separate entities. In that instance I would agree with you in that last line, that the Spirit of God is not a separate spirit from or of God. He is the very same One who created the world; the distinction being one that I'm persuaded is as borne out in my earlier rejoinder: He is the agency by which creation subsists - as would be the same thing pointed out in Psa. 104:30 - 'Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.'

If the spirit isn't a seperate entity then how can there be a trinity i.e. a collection of three beings?

By that I meant to offer the role of the Son who, being the Word (or, 'Logos') brings creation into existence. It is through Him that all things were made (John 1:3).

However, the verses don't say "the son" brings creation into existence et al., it says God (as in YHVH) did the making, so simply "offering the role" is your addition.

Indeed, it is true that in some instances one may readily recognize flawed interpretations that are completely off-keyed on issues discussed. However, you can only argue the case of 'flawed' interpretations where you have an alternative one to offer for consideration; rather than stating that you have no idea! That was the simple reason why I refrained and instead offered pointers such as the word 'prophecy' in Prov. 30:4.

Actually, that's not quite true: one doesn't necessarily need an alternative to recognise a flawed interpretation of a text or issue. For example, I may not have an explanation for how echoes are produced, but I can easily point out that the explanation proffered by the ancient Greeks is flawed and wrong.

@KAG,

KAG:

How can I be crying against "my own slant" by responding to your slant? By the way, what's my slant?

The very same thing you assumed about my post.

KAG:

Again, a midrashic reading of the verse isn't the debate.

Whichever is the reading, the whole premise was that Isaiah 9:6 was about the Messiah.

KAG:

Again, the right interpretation: "For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—"

Second, some midrashic reading of the verse can interprete the verse as a messianic verse, but of course, that isn't and hasn't been the point. The point - and I've had to keep going over it for you, again and again - is and has always been that the portion of the verse you higlighted and thought meant the messiah would be the same as YHVH actually reads (according to the Jewish interpretation of the verse): The Mighty God is planning grace.

And I've always had to call your attention back to the very same point - that the verse, even in Jewish understanding, is actually about the Messiah.

KAG:

It makes no difference.

It actually makes all the difference.

KAG:

Let's see:

I asked: Which prophets in the OT indicated the son of God is God?

Stimulus: who was the prophet Isaiah referring to by the name "The mighty God"?

KAG: YHVH

Stimulus: What exactly is the "Jewish" translation of Isaiah 9:6?

KAG: For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—

Stimulus: In reference to the 'Jewish translation', who is being referred to as the Mighty God in that verse other than the Messiah?

KAG: I already told you: YHVH

As you can see, I was neither debating the implications of a midrashic reading nor was I debating any reference to a messiah. That you've decided to turn the line of discussion to whether Isaiah was predicting the messiah is a detraction.

Again, my response was a direct answer to your initial query - that Isaiah 9:6 was referring to the Messiah which in that verse is called 'the Mighty God'. I did not refer you to a Midrash; rather, the weblink you provided actually confirmed the very same thing offered in my rejoinder without any detractions.

KAG:

In my opinion, it could be anything from a slight to an insult.

Which is which? That it could be 'anything' isn't saying anything at all.

KAG:

You haven't been that consistent and I gave the website solely for the Jewish interpretation of the verse; stay focused.

No matter how many times you dribble round it, the Jewish interpretation points to the Messiah - please go back and read your own weblink!

KAG:

Look, the debate is already long enough, but if you want to discuss the midrashic interpretation of Isaiah, how it pertains to a messiah and how the Christian messiah failed to fulfill any possible interpretation of the verse as a prophecy, then start a new thread. I'll participate and give my views. For now though, stay on topic.

I appreciate your recognition of the unnecessary stretch of this debate. However, as far as Isaiah 9:6 is concerned, even in Jewish understanding, it points to the Messiah.

KAG:

Yeah, sure, pity when I posted the link I didn't say "hey, look at what the author of this article has to say on the issue of messiahship", I'm pretty sure I wrote, "see, Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9:6", but whatever. So, are you going to answer my question, or should I just put this to another of those misses?

See, it's really a simple case, isn't it? How many times do I have to call your attention to what the website says about the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 as pointing to the Messiah? That's what the article says, and that's what I've maintained.

KAG:

If the spirit isn't a seperate entity then how can there be a trinity i.e. a collection of three beings?

The Bible does not present the Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as separate; for throughout there's only been one LORD God known by the covenant name 'Jehovah' (or YHVH). That it is a divine mystery has not been well received by many who study the subject - in just the same way that the Incarnation of the Son is a mystery.

KAG:

However, the verses don't say "the son" brings creation into existence et al., it says God (as in YHVH) did the making, so simply "offering the role" is your addition.

I honestly have to admit that was my interpretation of those verses concerning the Son (not the same as 'adding' to the verse) - for that is what other texts (such as John 1:3) point out.

KAG:

Actually, that's not quite true: one doesn't necessarily need an alternative to recognise a flawed interpretation of a text or issue. For example, I may not have an explanation for how echoes are produced, but I can easily point out that the explanation proffered by the ancient Greeks is flawed and wrong.

While I would not really want to stretch this into a discourse on echoes, your analogy actually works out my premise. You would not be able to 'point out' the flaws of ancient Greek explanation on that unless you knew what echoes were in the first place! In the same way, it really doesn't help one's argument to state that he/she has 'no idea' about a subject in order to see the flaws in other views.

stimulus:

@KAG,

The very same thing you assumed about my post.

It wasn't an assumption, and again you didn't answer my questions.

Whichever is the reading, the whole premise was that Isaiah 9:6 was about the Messiah.

And I've always had to call your attention back to the very same point - that the verse, even in Jewish understanding, is actually about the Messiah.

It actually makes all the difference.

For crying out loud, it doesn't really matter whether the verse is messianic or not, what matters is this part: “The Mighty God is planning grace", based especially on the first question you asked: who was the prophet Isaiah referring to by the name "The mighty God"? The answer is and has always being YHVH.

Again, my response was a direct answer to your initial query - that Isaiah 9:6 was referring to the Messiah which in that verse is called 'the Mighty God'. I did not refer you to a Midrash; rather, the weblink you provided actually confirmed the very same thing offered in my rejoinder without any detractions.

This is getting tiring, so I'll just ask that you read the line of discussion again.

Which is which? That it could be 'anything' isn't saying anything at all.

It's offering you a range of what it could be.

No matter how many times you dribble round it, the Jewish interpretation points to the Messiah - please go back and read your own weblink!

And no matter how much you introduce the non-sequitur, the Jewish interpretation makes it clear Isaiah wasn't equating anybody with YHVH.

I appreciate your recognition of the unnecessary stretch of this debate. However, as far as Isaiah 9:6 is concerned, even in Jewish understanding, it points to the Messiah.

And like I said, if you want to discuss "the midrashic interpretation of Isaiah, how it pertains to a messiah and how the Christian messiah failed to fulfill any possible interpretation of the verse as a prophecy, then start a new thread" I'll participate.

See, it's really a simple case, isn't it? How many times do I have to call your attention to what the website says about the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 as pointing to the Messiah? That's what the article says, and that's what I've maintained.

This is probably the first time a person I'm debating has missed the point of me posting a website I disagree with, but they would trust, simply for the evidence. Remarkably, you're still missing the point.

The Bible does not present the Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as separate; for throughout there's only been one LORD God known by the covenant name 'Jehovah' (or YHVH). That it is a divine mystery has not been well received by many who study the subject - in just the same way that the Incarnation of the Son is a mystery.

So when the New Testament has Jesus saying prayers like this: "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.", he was in reality praying to himself? From what I can see, they would certainly have to be separate entities for one to offer a prayer to another in the manner suggested by the text. Furthermore, to say that it's a mystery after offering some kind of an explanation really does seem contradictory.

I honestly have to admit that was my interpretation of those verses concerning the Son (not the same as 'adding' to the verse) - for that is what other texts (such as John 1:3) point out.

I see that it's your interpretation, but I don't see how you can call reading, instead of the "God made" written in the text, "God's son made" not adding to the verse. Also, you say that's what John 1:3 points out, but that's not what Genesis itself points out. Moreover, it's highly unlikely anyone before John 1:3 (and even afterwards in the Jewish community) would have read the verse that way.

While I would not really want to stretch this into a discourse on echoes, your analogy actually works out my premise. You would not be able to 'point out' the flaws of ancient Greek explanation on that unless you knew what echoes were in the first place! In the same way, it really doesn't help one's argument to state that he/she has 'no idea' about a subject in order to see the flaws in other views.

The analogy works, because like the text in question, I know what the words say in as much as I know, vaguely what echoes are. However, I can't explain how echoes are made or what they mean just like I can't explain the text; I can spot a flawed or ad hoc interpretation though.

@KAG,

KAG:

And no matter how much you introduce the non-sequitur, the Jewish interpretation makes it clear Isaiah wasn't equating anybody with YHVH.

I'll simply offer you one thing so we don't argue like kids. The Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 points to the Messiah - as affirmed by the weblink you offered. Anyone reading the article there would not miss it. However you try to read it, the Incarnation is undeniably there in that verse - 'Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given' - and that makes all the difference as to whom that verse was pointing to: none other than the Messiah. I introduced nothing of my own in calling your attention once and again to the article on your weblink; and it is inconsequential that you're pretending it isn't there.

KAG:

The analogy works, because like the text in question, I know what the words say in as much as I know, vaguely what echoes are. However, I can't explain how echoes are made or what they mean just like I can't explain the text; I can spot a flawed or ad hoc interpretation though.

There is no way one could intelligently flaw an interpretation without an alternative understanding of the subject in question. That you argue with the analogy of echoes confirms that you, at least, would know 'vaguely what echoes are.' One cannot claim to have 'no idea' about a subject and at the same time try to flaw the views of others.

stimulus:

@KAG,

I'll simply offer you one thing so we don't argue like kids. The Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 points to the Messiah - as affirmed by the weblink you offered. Anyone reading the article there would not miss it. However you try to read it, the Incarnation is undeniably there in that verse - 'Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given' - and that makes all the difference as to whom that verse was pointing to: none other than the Messiah. I introduced nothing of my own in calling your attention once and again to the article on your weblink; and it is inconsequential that you're pretending it isn't there.

I guess we've moved on from the presentation of and debate on Old Testament writers that equated the son of God with God. So, is it possible that Isaiah was prophesying a messiah? Yes, I'd say it's a strong possibility; however, and this is just me returning briefly to the early point, the author wasn't equating the messiah with YHVH.

By the way, I wasn't pretending the argument presented in the article wasn't there, I was simply disregarding it because the article itself was tangential to the discussion on whether the Jewish interpretation of the verse supported the deification of the "prophesied" person.

There is no way one could intelligently flaw an interpretation without an alternative understanding of the subject in question. That you argue with the analogy of echoes confirms that you, at least, would know 'vaguely what echoes are.' One cannot claim to have 'no idea' about a subject and at the same time try to flaw the views of others.

Like I pointed out I know what the words mean - hence the similarity with a vague understanding of echoes - but I can't interprete the text as a whole. I'll try to give a better analogy using a text, when I can.

@KAG,

KAG:

I guess we've moved on from the presentation of and debate on Old Testament writers that equated the son of God with God. So, is it possible that Isaiah was prophesying a messiah? Yes, I'd say it's a strong possibility; however, and this is just me returning briefly to the early point, the author wasn't equating the messiah with YHVH.

Well, reading the article led me to believe the author saw the Messiah in Isaiah 9:6.

KAG:

By the way, I wasn't pretending the argument presented in the article wasn't there, I was simply disregarding it because the article itself was tangential to the discussion on whether the Jewish interpretation of the verse supported the deification of the "prophesied" person.

Okay, I take that back on insinuating the pretence.

KAG:

Like I pointed out I know what the words mean - hence the similarity with a vague understanding of echoes - but I can't interprete the text as a whole. I'll try to give a better analogy using a text, when I can.

Well appreciated. Regards.

Jesus the Son of God or God

All of the above.

No he's not. He's just a Prophet of God. Period

Drunk,etc,
Jesus is God, he is the first begotten of the father, he is the word made flesh, he is GOD. get that into your head!, the bible is straight forward jn1:1, gen 1:5 God spoke, now tell me, can you separate a man from his words? like wise a man from his spirit? the word of God and the spirit of God is GOD, there is no heirachy they are one.
you all that are talking anyhow about this issue , BE CAREFUL, BE WISE AND KNOWLEDGEABLE, DONT SAY WHAT YOU DONT KNOW, there is freedom to religion dont mislead anyone because of what you think. SAY WHAT YOU KNOW and back up your words.

The fact is that God has designed our heart to curious but the truth is that our mind is[b] too finite[/b] to comprehend the nature of God.
God created humans in His own image i.e Tripartied; Body, spirit & soul.
In God, these part can exist independently but in human no way.
But check out various religion views about Jesus

Do you realize that Jesus not only spoke
to the seven churches in the book of
Revelation through John, but that He was
also speaking to the church today? I believe
we are living today in the last generation
before Jesus Christ will return to earth with
His feet touching the Mount of Olives.
(Zech. 14:2-4)
The seven churches of Revelation;
Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira,
Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea, were
basically centers of seven postal districts in
the interior of the province of Asia. By
sending letters to these seven churches, they
would be shared with the smaller churches
in the outlying districts. During the time that
John wrote the book of Revelation, he was
stranded on Patmos and the church was
coming under severe persecution by the
government of Rome. John wrote the
Apocalypse by means of signs, symbols and
cryptic language in order not to be martyred
by the Roman government. The number
“seven” was and is considered to be the
perfect number, which stands for
completeness. As the true author of the
Book of Revelation, Jesus was delivering
messages of commendation,condemnation,
encouragement, hope, warning and reward
to the church of John’s day, the church
throughout history and today’s church.
The book of Revelation is part of the canon
of Scriptures; thus, it is the inspired Word
of God, and Jesus Christ Himself is the true
author, using John as His secretary. Rev. 1:1
starts out by stating for the record: “The
revelation of Jesus Christ…” Rev. 1:10-11
reads: “I (John) was in the Spirit on the
Lord’s day, and heard behind me, a great
voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha
and Omega, the first and the last: and, what
thou seest write in a book, and send it unto
the seven churches which are in Asia…”
Rev.1:17-19 records: “And when I saw him, I
fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right
hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not: I
am the first and the last: I am he that liveth,
and was dead; and behold, I am alive for
evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell
and of death. Write the things which thou
hast seen, and the things which are, and
the things which shall be hereafter.” It is
intuitively clear that Jesus Christ is the
author, and He alone is speaking to us today.
It is with the authority of God Himself that
He commends, condemns, warns, rebukes
and calls us to repent and be faithful lest we
not only loose our power, anointing and gifts
of the Holy Spirit, but most importantly our
place in the Lamb’s Book of Life itself.
Let’s look closer at the church of Ephesus,
beginning with Rev. 2:1: “Unto the angel of
the church of Ephesus write; These things
saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his
right hand, who walketh in the midst of the
seven golden candlesticks, ” Here John is
saying that Jesus is addressing the Pastor
(angel) of Ephesus, and also Jesus holds the
other Pastors (stars) accountable for the
condition of the churches (golden
candlesticks). Verse 2 and 3 read: “ I know
thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience,
and how thou canst not bear them which
say they are apostles and are not, and hast
found them liars. And hast borne, and hast
patience, and for my name’s sake hast
labored, and hast not fainted.” Jesus in
verse 2 and 3 commends this church and
those like it for their hard, busy, active labor;
“toil which exhausts”. He also commends
them for their patience, meaning their
“triumphant fortitude”. In the area of
orthodoxy Jesus commends them for being
able to discern between good and acceptable
or bad and false teachers. To discern
between a true or false teacher and to have
the fortitude to confront and deal with wrong
teaching is so important because so many
churches are being torn apart by teachers of
heresy and nobody challenges or stops them
from spreading their lies. So this is a busy,
active, strong church by outward
appearances. Possibly they were involved
in evangelistic activities to add members to
the church. Their members were not afraid
to work to build the church physically and
cause it to grow numerically.
First we saw Jesus’ commendation, but
now in verse 4 we read Jesus’ condemnation
of the church in Ephesus: “Nevertheless I
have somewhat against thee, because thou
hast left thy first love.” Jesus follows up
with a command to remember their past sweet
relationship with Himself and their brethren
and a warning to repent for allowing it to slip
away in the business of life and replacing it
with wrong motives for building a mega
church. Verse 5 reads: “Remember therefore
from whence thou art fallen and repent and
do the first works; or else I will come unto
thee quickly, and will remove thy
candlestick out of his place, except thou
repent.” Saints, we all need to be careful
not to neglect our worship of Jesus in
exchange for serving Him with wrong
motives, which might build a businessman’s
mega church, but Jesus Himself condemns
it. When we truly take daily quality time to
love Jesus, then we exhibit His
characteristics to those around us; love, joy,
peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
faith, meekness, temperance. (Gal. 5:22,23)
In a living relationship with Jesus Christ we
are kind one to another and we have mercy
on the widow and the orphan. We treat the
street people with respect and compassion
and visit those in prison. We feed and clothe
the poor and pray for those afflicted
whenever we come in contact with them, not
just in front of a nationally televised
audience. There is such a lack of genuine
ministry today that the heart of Jesus grieves
as ministers of notoriety showcase their
supposed gifts of the Holy Spirit and build
their mega churches with wrong motives. The
strong warning was to “repent” or Jesus
would “remove thy candlestick”. To
“remove” means to judge, and history
January 16, 2003
records that the church of Ephesus did not
take Jesus’ warning seriously enough.
Today in Ephesus there is no Christian
church! When a person or church looses
their “first love”, anointing starts to leave.
If that church will not repent, the Holy Spirit
continues to depart, as in Ezekiel’s terrible
vision, and like Samson who shook himself
not realizing that the Spirit of God had left!
Samson was judged; Israel was judged;
Ephesus was judged; and the question is,
are you or your church being judged today?
Jesus goes on in verse 6 to commend:
“But this thou hast, that thou hatest the
deeds of the Nicolaitans, which also I hate.”
Nicolaitans were followers of Nicolaus, a
heretic. Jesus hates heresy! The Webster’s
Dictionary defines “heresy” as “religious or
ideological belief opposed to orthodoxy.”
Jesus hates heresy because it confuses
people, thus leading them away from Himself,
consequently giving their allegiance to
another person, god, philosophy, church or
religion, etc. Jesus hates cults because their
teachings deviate from the canon of Scripture
and from the infallibility of the Bible.
Orthodox Christianity believes in the
following essential fundamentals of faith:
1[b]) the inspiration of Scripture and the
inerrancy of the Bible;
2) the Trinity;
3) the deity of Jesus Christ;
4) the virgin birth of Jesus Christ;
5) the substitutionary atonement of Jesus
Christ’s death;
6) the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead;
7) salvation is a gift which comes through
faith in Christ alone;
the literal return of Jesus Christ (the
second coming);
9) a literal heaven;
10) a literal hell;
11) a literal lake of fire.Cults center around a strong charismatic
person who either opposes Jesus Christ or
misrepresents Jesus Christ.[/b] Cults deny
the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of
Jesus Christ. Cults do not accept the canon
of Scriptures as the final authority. They
either reject it or say they have other
revelation that supersedes the Bible. Some
also rely heavily on their religious tradition,
which to them outweighs the authority of
the original canon of Scriptures.
There are over 2000 cults in the United
States alone today.The following are just a
few from Dr. Fleming’s book, “Gatebreakers”:

PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN CULTS
These are organizations that purport to be
Christian but teach some marvelous
revelation (vision, dream or some angel
appeared to them) that has greater authority,
supplements or supersedes the canon of
Scripture. Mormonism, Jehovah’s
Witnesses, Unity, Christian Science, The
Unification Church, and The Way
International are examples.

NEW AGE CULTS
Scientology, Mind Sciences, The Forum
(E.S.T.), UFO’s,etc. In his book
“Understanding the New Age”, author
Russell Chandler gives this definition: “New
Age is a hybrid mix of spiritual, social, and
political forces, and it encompasses
sociology, theology, the physical sciences,
medicine, anthropology, history, the human
potentials movement, sports, and science
fiction…Identifying individuals as full-blown
New Agers is baffling. Some subscribe to
certain portions of New Age, some to
others… The New Age influence touches
virtually every area of life, and thousands of
New Age activists seek to transform society
through New Age precepts…Although new
in style and vocabulary, the movement is in
many ways as old as the Eastern religions of
Hinduism and Buddhism, Western occultism,
and the mystical oracles of ancient Greece
and Egypt. New Age has simply recast the
theory of reincarnation into the language of
Western humanistic psychology, science,
and technology.”

ORIENTAL CULTS
Originate from Hinduism and Buddhism.
Jainism, Sikhism, Hare Krishna, the Divine
Light, the Vedanta Society, ISKON,
Theosophy, Rajneeshism, Dravidians,
Transcendental Meditation, etc.

MIDDLE EAST CULTS
Islam, Bahaism, The Sunnites, The Shiaites,
The Sufi Muslims,Tijjanias, Ahmaddiyas etc.

OCCULT-SPIRITUALISTIC CULTS
Satanism, Witchcraft (WICCA), Spiritism,
Eckankar, Freemasonry, etc.

APOCALYPTIC CULTS
Solar Temple, Heaven’s Gate, Movement for
the Restoration of the Ten Commandments,
Aum Shinrikyo etc.
Remember the dialogue to the seven
churches of Revelation is from the Risen Lord
Jesus Christ Himself. He tells them
emphatically that he hates cults, false
teachers who lead people away from Him to
themselves and their false gods etc. Let us
take a look at what some cults say about
who Jesus is. 1 John chapters 2 & 3 warn us
that Jesus Christ is the son of God that Jesus
Christ is God and if anyone or any other spirit
contradicts this reality it is an anti-Christ.

BAHAI
Jesus was one of nine great world
manifestations. There is no Trinity. He is
not God. He is a prophet beneath
Baha’u’llah.

BUDDHISM
Deny Jesus Christ is God. Gautama Buddha
who rejected certain features of his native
Hinduism, taught that man’s release from
sorrow was not obtainable by any act of
sacrifice or pilgrimage which might be
interpreted as trying to gain favor of a deity.
He also taught that this release came from
the all absorbing knowledge that man’s
selfish desires were rooted in dualistic
delusions about the self. Buddha has been
regarded as a naturalistic atheist by many
both critics and disciples.

CHRISTIAN SCIENCE
Jesus is only a divine idea.

EVOLUTION
Denies the deity of Jesus Christ. This false
doctrine where man is not made in the image
of God but is an evolved animal has provided
a license and justification for evil without
guilt. The relationship between false
religions and the heresy of theistic evolution
is strong. Evolution is the foundation and
structure upon which humanism has built
its societal plagues of euthanasia, abortion,
divorce, racism, homosexuality,
pornography, population control,
reincarnation and every other de-
Christianized program of the United Nations
and their One World Religion which is
syncretism.

FREEMASONS
To them Christ was a mystical figure. Jaobul-
on is God, all men have divine potential.
Freemasonry uses deception to get men
involved and entraps them by secret ritual
rites and secret blood oaths. It blasphemes
the true name of God and purposely removes
the name of Jesus Christ from its Scripture
quotations. Its own writers teach paganism,
spiritism, and the occult. Read the book “The
Truth About Masons”. The Shriners strive
to be the face of the Masonic brotherhood
to the public. If you look carefully at the red
fezzes, you’ll see an Islamic sword and
crescent encrusted with jewels on the front.
The city of Fez represents a bloody slaughter
of 50,000 Christians in the eighth century by
Islamic barbarians. The Muslim murderers
dipped their caps in the blood of the
Christians as a testimony to Allah. In order
to become a Shriner, a man must have risen
through all the degrees of either the Scottish
or York Rites. After an initiation rite in the
Shriners that is obscene, the candidate
swears a blood oath that is four and a half
pages long; agrees that it is non-revocable,
and then takes an oath in the name of Allah.
When people first enter the Masons, I believe
most do not realize the cult they have just
joined. It is not until one progresses up the
ladder and continues to receive their
teachings pertaining to that level of
Masonry do they start to recognize the
satanic depths of Freemasonry. The general
teaching of the degrees and rituals is that
the candidate is in darkness without the light
of Masonry that reveals hidden mysteries.
The following are examples of some of the
oaths they have to take:
1) Entered Apprentice—Candidate is
blindfolded, left arm and breast naked, wears
blue pajamas with one leg missing, noose
around the neck, led around from darkness
to light. It is here that they are given the
white apron. This represents purity and the
covering of sin which is supposed to save
them at judgment day. Masons wear this
when buried. Part of the oath they take at
this level is: “having my throat cut across,
my tongue torn out from its roots, and my
body buried in the rough sands of the sea.”
2) Master Mason—The legend of Hiram
Abiff. Candidate pretends to be Hiram Abiff,
the builder of King Solomon’s Temple (1
Kings 7:13). Their legend teaches that Hiram
was privileged to know the name of the one
true God. He was killed and the name was
lost to men. The initiate acts all of this out.
However, in the end of the ritual the initiate
is raised back to life with the strong grip of
the Lion’s paw by “King Solomon”. This
grip is very important to secret societies. It
is used in the witchcraft rituals of Wicca and
is known as the “Strong Grip of the Lion of
the Tribe of Judah.” Part of the oath at this
level is: “my body severed in two, my bowels
taken from thence and burned to ashes etc.”
(If they revealed the secrets of the order.)
3) Royal Arch Degree—Candidate stands
before someone dressed in a high priest
outfit and has revealed to him “the lost
word”--the “lost name of God” that Hiram
Abiff knew. This is the name that the Mason
has been searching for throughout the rituals
of Masonry. He is told that the true name of
God is Jabulon (or Jaobulon). Now lets break
this name down because in this initiation
ceremony three Masons reveal the name to
the candidate by speaking their part of it,
Jao-bul-on. Jao = Jah meaning Yahweh or
Jehovah, God of Israel. Bul = Baal or Bel,
God of Canaan. On = Osiris, (Egyptian sun
god), God of Egypt.
It should be noted that there are many
references to Jehovah and Adonai also in
the Masonic rituals, but the names are
blasphemed because they are perverted to
represent other than the God of the Holy
Bible. The oath of this level is: “I would
sooner have my skull off than divulge any of
the secrets of this degree unlawfully…and
have my brain exposed to the scorching rays
of the noonday sun.” Some other oaths at
different levels are: Past Master of the York
Rite, “binding myself under no less penalty
than to have my tongue split from tip to root.”
Tenth Degree of the Scottish Rite level, “I do
promise and swear upon the Holy Bible, to
keep exactly in my heart all the secrets that
shall be revealed to me. And in failure of this
by obligation, I consent to have my body
opened perpendicularly, and to be exposed
for eight hours in the air, that the venomous
flies may eat of my entrails, my head to be
cut off and put on the highest pinnacle of
the world.”
Note that in the 17th degree of the Scottish
Rite the candidate is taught that ABADDON
is a sacred name to be honored. ABADDON
is the king over the demons in the pit of hell.
Manley P. Hall, one of the highest level
Masonic authors, claims that the key demon
of the Masons is BAPHOMET, known as
the satanic Goat of Mendes. Albert Pike
substituted a triangle for the cross and said
that it referred to Shiva, Krishna, and Brahma,
The Hindu Trinity. Albert Pike books are
considered by some Masons as
authoritative. He was given the honorary
thirty-third degree of the Scottish Rite in 1857
and became the Grand Commander of the
Supreme Council in 1859 and reigned as the
undisputed head until his death in 1891. The
murder of William Morgan in 1826
triggered a national political movement--
the anti-Masonic party--the first mass
movement in American history organized
to destroy Freemasonry. William Morgan
worked in Batvia, New York, as a stone
mason. Having been initiated as a Royal
Arch Mason, he understood the workings
of the lodge and the rituals within. He
became disgruntled at his Masonic brothers
for refusing to start a Masonic chapter in
Batvia where he hoped to be given the
contract for building the Hall and decided to
publish a book entitled: “Illustrations of
Masonry, Exposing All the Rituals, Secrets,
Handshakes, and Oaths”. The Masons
retaliated by kidnapping and murdering
Morgan.

HARE KRISHNA
Jesus was an enlightened vegetarian teacher
of meditation, maybe Krishna.

HINDUISM
Jesus Christ was a guru, a teacher, or even
avatar of Vishnu. Modern Hinduism allows
for millions of gods. The majority of Hindus,
about 79 percent, worship Vishnu while other
millions worship Shiva, the god of fertility,
whose rituals are as evil as those of the
Canaanites who God commanded the
children of Israel to destroy.

ISLAM
Muslims believe Jesus is only a prophet.
They exalt Allah, a moon deity, and
Muhammad.

JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES
Jesus is Michael the Archangel. The first
being God created. He came as a man, died,
and rose as an invisible spirit; came back
invisible in 1914 to Brooklyn to head
Watchtower.

MOON’S UNIFICATION CHURCH
Jesus was a man who failed; Moon is the
Second Coming. Rev. Sun Myung Moon
has declared that he is the new world
Messiah. Moon claims to have had regular
contact with Buddha, Krishna, Jesus,
Moses, John the Baptist, and other prophets.
Moon claims that Jesus Christ appeared to
him in a vision admonishing him to carry out
the task that Christ had failed to complete.
The Unification Bible, ‘Divine Principle’ was
published in 1957.
It should be noted that the immorality
charge for which Moon was arrested was
based around a blood-cleansing sex ritual
called Pikaruna. “Pikaruna” is based on the
belief that because original sin came through
Eve’s sexual intercourse with Satan, a woman
could have sex three times with Moon, the
perfect man, and thus liquidate her original
sin. After intercourse with Moon a woman
achieved a perfected status, and male church
members could have sexual relations with
her and liquidate their own sin. Couples
experiencing this blood cleansing [could]
produce perfect children. If practiced widely
enough, such a ritual could save the world.
His theology, based upon the 1936 vision,
also includes the divine need for him to have
sexual relations with 70 married women, 70
widows, and 70 virgins.

MORMONS
Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan; one god
in a pantheon of gods; born through physical
incest.

NEW AGE
Jesus was an ascended master, guru, and
spiritual guide, but not God and not Savior.

ROMAN CATHOLICISM
Romanism should be regarded as a
deformation of Christianity, in fact as its
lowest deformation. And this deformation
expresses itself not merely at some, but at
every point of doctrine. They do believe
Jesus is God but historical Christianity
places the Bible, the Logos as supreme in
authority, but this is not so with Catholicism.
Catholicism equates their tradition with the
Bible and thus places the directives of the
church (at times) in a higher authority. This
is quite serious as it undermines the Bible
and what it teaches (Col. 2:8 and Mark 7:6-
9). On November 21, 1964, Pope Paul VI
proclaimed “the title of Mary as Mother of
the Church”. To non-Catholics this
proclamation seems preposterous,
ridiculous and outright heresy since the
Bible says nothing about Mary being the
Mother of the Church. But the mind of a
devout Catholic would willingly accept this
lie because it was spoken by the Pope, who
according to Catholic tradition is the
Apostle Peter’s successor and speaks with
infallibility regarding doctrines of faith and
morals. This is scary stuff for Christians
because we know that the Pope is just
another man who is not infallible and he does
make mistakes. We also know the Pope’s
decisions on doctrine at times is totally
unscriptural and so is his position and title.
The Bible shows a number of facts that
refute Catholicism’s claims of the Pope and
Peter concept:
[b]1) Neither the word ‘pope’ nor the office
of it are mentioned in the Bible.
2) It is not clear that Peter was ever even
in Rome. Paul did not mention it.
3) Jesus changing Peter’s name proves
nothing because he changed the names
of others as well, Mark 3:16-17; 1 John
1:42.
4) Paul’s work seems greater than Peter’s
in comparison, but he never sought
ultimate leadership. Neither do we see
him submitting himself to Peter. Once,
he even rebuked him, Gal 2:11-14.
5) James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19)
appears to be the head of the early
church in Jerusalem not Peter.[/b]Consider the following evidence: James
was named first among the pillars of the
church in Gal. 2:9. Peter distinguished the
name of James in Acts 12:17 after he was
miraculously released from prison by the
angel. “Go, tell these things to James and
the brethren.” At the great Jerusalem
Debate over circumcision, Barnabas, Paul
and Peter submitted to James’ decision. In
Acts 15:19 we see James running the meeting
and deciding: “Wherefore my sentence is,
that we trouble not them, which from among
the Gentiles are turned to God.” Flavius
Josephus is considered one of the most
reliable Jewish historians of all times. He
was born in 37 AD. It is remarkable that he
highly regards James for his righteousness.
Indeed, he speculated that the “desolation”
of Jerusalem was because the Jews murdered
James, but nowhere does he mention Peter.
Martin Luther, a Catholic Monk and
Theologian, after studying the Bible,
protested against the Church of Rome in 1517
by nailing 95 points of disagreement to the
door of a church in Wittenberg, Germany,
coming against Rome’s unscriptural
teachings on the church, the Scriptures and
tradition. Martin Luther was convinced that
the office of Pope was unscriptural. Luther
said: ‘I believe in neither pope nor councils
alone; for it is perfectly well established that
they have frequently erred, as well as
contradicted themselves.

ROSICRUCIAN
Jesus is a manifestation of cosmic
consciousness.

SCIENTOLOGY
Jesus is a false implanted memory in people’s
mind.

SPIRITISTS
Jesus is an advanced medium in the 6th sphere
of astral projection.

THEOSOPHY
Jesus is no greater than other religious
leaders since all men are Christs.

TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION
Jesus was an enlightened guru who never
suffered for anyone. This is one of dozens
of Hindu-related religions that have sprung
up in America as many gurus sought a
following in America.

UNITARIANS
Jesus was a good man that followers
mistakenly deified.

UNITY
Jesus was a man who perfected a divine idea.

THE WAY
Jesus is the Son of God, but not God the
Son; they deny the Trinity.

YOGA
Denies Jesus is God. The teachings and
techniques of yoga were incorporated into
the Hindu religion about 100 BC by Patanjali
in the Yoga Sutras. Yoga became one of six
schools of thought regarding salvation
through knowledge (Jnana Marga)…Yoga
means ‘yoke or union with God.’ God is the
Impersonal All and Universal Soul to which
they want to yoke themselves…In the
Western world, yoga is often thought of as
simple isometric exercises, but it is much
deeper than that. Yoga has become the
leading method for Hindus to transcend this
world of illusion. The union with their god
that a yogi hopes to achieve is supposedly
reached only after living a moral life, gaining
inner and outer purity, and training the body
through various exercises and postures.
I could go on and on listing cults and
their teachings. What they all have in
common is a deviation or outright rejection
of the canon of Scriptures. They all reject
Jesus is God or they have a person who now
can add or nullify the Scriptures by their own
authority and church tradition. They all have
some teacher, prophet, guru, apostle, bishop,
pope etc., who has received new revelation
or additional revelation from a dream, vision,
angel etc. Gal. 1:6-9 warns: “I marvel that
ye are so soon removed from him that called
you into the grace of Christ unto another
gospel: Which is not another; but there be
some that trouble you, and would pervert
the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an
angel from heaven preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached
unto you, let him be accursed. As we said
before, so say I now again, if any man preach
any other gospel unto you than that ye have
received, let him be accursed.”
The Canon of Scriptures did not include
the Apocrypha and the Canon warns us
clearly not to add or subtract from the
Scriptures lest we be damned. Revelation
22:18-19 reads: “For I testify unto every man
that heareth the words of the prophecy of
this book, if any man shall add unto these
things, God shall add unto him the plagues
that are written in this book: And if any
man shall take away from the words of the
book of this prophecy, God shall take away
his part out of the book of life, and out of
the holy city, and from the things which are
written in this book.”
The Apocrypha is a Greek word meaning
hidden or concealed. The Apocrypha books
were rejected from the canon of Scriptures
because they did not meet the criteria for
canonization. Examples of criteria for books
to be considered inspired, infallible: 1) the
word of God had Apostolic Authorship; 2)
was recognized and used by leading
churches or the majority of them; and, 3) a
conformity to the standards of sound
doctrine as from the Lord. The church
fathers had a standard and followed the rule,
“if in doubt, throw it out.”
Orthodox Christians who submit to the
canon of Scriptures reject the Apocrypha.
Roman Catholicism has included it in their
own Roman Catholic Bible to support their
church tradition and teachings which go
against the Bible, thus making the Word of
God null and void in those circumstances.
The priests and Pope totally disregard the
strong warnings in the canon of Scriptures
against adding or subtracting or drawing the
glory away from Jesus and giving it to a man
or woman. Thus, Catholics in many
instances go against the teachings of Jesus
Christ in order to obey the teaching of the
Pope.
Dr. Fleming in his book, “Gatebreakers:
Answering Cults and World Religions with
Prayer, Love and Witnessing”, states the
following: “The reasons the Apocrypha was
and is rejected as authoritative and Godinspired
Scripture is: One, Jesus never
quoted the Apocrypha and did not
acknowledge it as Scripture. Two, the first
century apostles did not quote it or recognize
it as equal to Scripture. Three, the books
were rejected by the Jewish Council of Jamnia
(A.D.90). Four, it is rejected by modern day
Jews and not a part of their canon. Five, it
was not originally included in the Greek
Septuagint by the seventy. Six, Jerome never
regarded the Apocrypha as Scripture. He
only translated the books under coercion and
never accepted them as Scripture. After his
death, the books were added to his Latin
Vulgate. Seven, Augustine did acknowledge
the Apocrypha in his early writings, but his
later writings clearly reflected a rejection of
these books as outside the canon and
inferior to the Hebrew scriptures.
Furthermore, he presided over the African
council of Hippo that canonized the New
Testament, rejecting all other books. Eight,
the Roman Catholic Church itself did not
recognize these books until the Council of
Trent (1545-1563), and this was done as a
reaction to the Protestant Reformation and
to legitimize some of their doctrinal matters.
(Example: 2 Maccabees 12:45-46 gives them
their doctrine of praying for the dead). Nine,
the books abound in historical and
geographical inaccuracies. Ten, they teach
false doctrines that are at odds with other
Scripture. Eleven, they lack the distinctive
elements that give Scripture divine character.
Twelve, the books never claim to be the Word
of God or given by prophets.”
Rene Pache in his book, “The Inspiration
and Authority of Scritpture”, points out
some of the many problems with the
Apocrypha. He says: “Except for certain
interesting historical information (especially
in 1 Maccabees) and a few beautiful moral
thoughts (e.g. wisdom of Solomon), these
books contain absurd legends and
platitudes, and historical, geographical and
chronological errors, as well as manifestly
heretical doctrines; they even recommend
immoral acts (Judith 9:10,13).” Pachs
contends that Rome added the Apocrypha
to justify their human traditions. “Now, we
must remember that it was the Jews who were
called upon to compile the Old Testament.
As Paul said, it was to them that the oracles
of God were confided (Romans 3:1-2). We
received those oracles from their hands and
no one else. Why, then did Rome take so
new and daring a position? Because
confronted by the Reformation, she lacked
arguments to justify her unscriptural
deviations. Consequently, she declared that
the Apocryphal books supported such
doctrines as prayers for the dead (II Macc.
12:44); the expiatory sacrifice (eventually to
become the mass, (II Macc. 12:39-46);
almsgiving with expiatory value, also leading
to deliverance from dead (Tobit 12:9; 4:10);
invocation and intercession of the saints (II
Macc.15:14; Bar. 3:4); the worship of angels
(Tobit 12:12); purgatory; and the redemption
of souls after death (II Macc. 12:42, 46).”
For your information, the books of the
Apocrypha are 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit,
Judith, the additions to Esther, the Wisdom
of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, the
Letter of Jeremiah, the additions to the Book
of Daniel (the Prayer of Asariah and the Song
of the Three Young Men; Susanna; and Bel
and the Dragon), the Prayer of Manasseh, 1
Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees.
Jesus finally ends with a warning to the
Ephesus church in Revelation 2:7: “He that
hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit
saith unto the churches; To him that
overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of
life, which is in the midst of the paradise of
God.”
Once again, the number “seven”
represents completeness or totality. Jesus,
the Risen Lord Himself, is speaking to the
churches then and the churches now. In
Ephesus we see some good things that the
church was doing. In fact, originally it was
out of a loving, pure heart. Nevertheless,
over time, the cause and intent became wrong.
Where initially they worked with their hands,
energies, resources and talents to build a
church, building with the holiest of motives
for Jesus’ glory and to truly bring the lost
into the kingdom, eventually that became
secondary. Without realizing it, pastors and
elders were continually developing and
glamorizing the structure for their own
prestige. In the beginning they evangelized
to actually bring people out of paganism into
the light of Jesus Christ and into eternal life
because of their deep first love (Jesus). Now
they were doing evangelism for themselves
to show how correct, powerful and respected
they were and are amongst the church
community and society. Consequently, they
compromised more, failing to deal with each
person impartially. Instead they considered
their position in wealth, in the church, and
within the community. They were slowly but
consistently loosing their first love and
making decisions based on (as Solomon
would eventually admit) vanity.
Jesus was and is telling the church to love
Him first and foremost with all their heart so
as to develop His character and grow in His
image whereby they actually can represent
Him here on earth and render correct justice
and judgment. With passion and
compassion they are to feed the poor, take
care of the widow and orphan, visit and
comfort those in prison, heal the sick, deliver
the oppressed and possessed, and walk and
grow with power and anointing.
Jesus used the term “to him that
overcometh” because He knew the mentality
of the Ephesian culture with their games,
rewards, etc. In Asia, during the time of the
Ephesian church, the governor had a palace
in the city of Ephesus. Also, the Pan Ionic
Games, which were second only to the
Olympics, were held in Ephesus. The city
has been called “the Vanity Fair of the
ancient world”. As does Seattle,
Washington, Ephesus possessed one of the
greatest seaports, so she was a very rich
and proud city. One of the seven wonders
of the Ancient world, the Temple of Artemis
was located at Ephesus, which made
Ephesus a very liberal, immoral, and pagan
city. Heraclitus, a philosopher in Ephesus is
reported to have said: “The inhabitants of
Ephesus are fit only to be drowned. The
reason I never laugh or smile is that I lived
among such terrible uncleanness.” He was
referring to deep immorality such as
homosexuality, lesbianism, adultery,
fornication, etc. As an athlete in Ephesus
had to train to win and overcome, Jesus told
the church that they too must be as
dedicated to fight in this battle against
conforming to the culture and values of this
world. Out of their first love for Him they
must with all patience (fortitude) spend daily
time alone with Him in worship, meditation,
study and prayer. They must, in the power
of their relationship with Him, confront those
around them in this pagan community and
win them over, just as an athlete in the Roman
games wants to finish first, overcoming all
of his competition and resistance. The
Christian now must overcome the
temptations to conform to society’s
lifestyles, and, instead, daily try to convert
the people to Jesus’ kingdom. Where the
athlete who won the games in Ephesus ate
and wallowed in the beauties of Ephesus,
Jesus promised those of us who “overcome”
will eat from “the tree of life” and enjoy the
glories of heaven forever.

@ georgecso so what do you think JESUS (MY GOD) is?

My God please do forgive them, for they dont know what they are writing,

@SWEETSJOY
"Drunk,etc,
Jesus is God, he is the first begotten of the father, he is the word made flesh, he is GOD. get that into your head!, the bible is straight forward jn1:1, gen 1:5 God spoke, now tell me, can you separate a man from his words? like wise a man from his spirit? the word of God and the spirit of God is GOD, there is no heirachy they are one."

hmm hmmm hmmm YES JESUS IS GOD  IN THE SAME MANNER THAT I CAN CLAIM THAT MY FATHER AND I ARE ONE  ENTITY, I DARE CLAIM THAT I AM MY FATHER TO HIS FACE OR TO OTHER MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY. I CAN NEVER BE MY FATHER FOR I AM SUI GENERIS.

SO IF JESUS IS GOD WHY ELI ELI ELI LAMA SABA SAKTANI.  MY GOD MY GOD WHY HATH THOU FORSKAEN ME.
WHY CRY OUT TO THE SUPPOSED GOD IF HE HIMSELF WAS GOD?

WHY SHOULD THEY GET IT INTO THEIR HEADS OF COURSE THERE IS FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND RELIGION SO YOU DONT HAVE TO IMPOSE IT INTO THEIR HEADS

someone once asked Jesus when the world will come to an end? He answered by telling the person that He does not know the hour nor the day but His Father (God) alone knows. what does his answer tell you?

ishmael:

someone once asked Jesus when the world will come to an end? He answered by telling the person that He does not know the hour nor the day but His Father (God) alone knows. what does his answer tell you?

Someone once asked Jesus who He was, even going so far as to adjure Him to tell if He was the Son of God (Matt. 26:63). His answer was: I am! (Mark 14:62) What does that say to you?

@stimulus


Let me come in as regards to your post on sonship of God. You misquoted the verses and here are the verses posted by you.


#Someone once asked Jesus who He was, even going so far as to adjure Him to tell if He was the Son of God (Matt. 26:63). His answer was: I am! (Mark 14:62) What does that say to you?#


Jesus was asked

Luke 22 v 70: The said they all, art thou the son of God? and he saith unto them [b]ye said that I am.[/b]

Here, he told them that they said so.


Again they asked him

Mathew 26 v 63 - 64: But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said unto him, 'I adjure you by the living God , tell us if you are the christ, the son of God. Jesus said to to him, 'you have said so. But I will tell you, hereafter you will see the son of man seated at the right hand of Power , ,,,

Again, he told them that they have said so.


Finally when they noticed that he never wanted to claim sonship of God or answer them, they now changed the question and asked him

Mark 14 v 61: Jesus was asked , 'are ye christ, son of the blessed'? Jesus said I am and ye shall see the son of man sitting on the right hand of Power,,,

The next question is 'who is the blessed being referred to in the above verse"

The answer is in the gospel of Luke

Luke 1 v 28: And he came to her and said 'Hail, o favoured one, the Lord is with you'

Note: Other ancient authorities add, 'Blessed are you among women"

We all equally know that Mary is blessed among women and it is not God that is being referred to here. Also Jesus referred to himself as the son of man.

So carry on

Stay blessed.

@babs787,

babs787:

Finally when they noticed that he never wanted to claim sonship of God or answer them, they now changed the question and asked him

Dude, please don't sweat it out with your reconstruction of Islamic tales. Jesus Christ actually claimed to be the Son of God. "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36)

Not only so, the accusing and sneering crowd remembered that He said so by Himself - "He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for He said, I am the Son of God." (Matt. 27:43)

Jesus Himself claimed to be the Son of God.

The expression 'Ye say that I am' (Luke 22:70), or 'Thou hast said' (Matt. 26:64) was to evidence the fact that He was pointing out to them how they had finally made the very same confession they had been avoiding up until then. It would be the same thing as saying, 'You have said it!'

He used the same expression in answering Judas earlier: 'Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said' (Matt. 26:25) - meaning, that indeed Judas had just confessed to the very thing Jesus had been warning of up until then - Judas would betray Jesus.

Notice the same expression again in His answer to Pilate: 'And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it' (Luke 23:3). Earlier at His birth, the brutal political regime under Herod had sought His death upon the announcement that He was 'born King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2). Now, what they had refused to acknowledge for over thirty years of His life on earth was being unwittingly confessed by Pilate himself - and Jesus confirmed the very statement as binding: "Thou sayest it!"

Think about it: if He were not the Son of God, why would He have openly said so Himself (John 10:36 and Matt. 27:43)? If He were not born King of the Jews, why did He not stop those who sang His praise, saying 'Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest' (Luke 19:38)?

This is why I have often appealed to you that I'm not in the least interested in your boring roundabout denials, because you often don't make any sense, babs787. Jesus clearly said He was the Son of God, and you can't dribble round that.

You quoted a lot of scriptures where Christ was making refence to the Father as God. Also i want you to read John 20:28 and think why Thowas called him "My Lord and my God." Christ himself said if you have seen the Father, you have seen me. The Father and I are one. But i think i understand your point of view. So i tell you, man is nothing but dust! They are somethings which God has not revealed to man, so focus on the teachings of Christ built around faith, hope and love. And pray about everything.

You quoted a lot of scriptures where Christ was making refence to the Father as God. Also i want you to read John 20:28 and think why Thowas called him "My Lord and my God." Christ himself said if you have seen the Father, you have seen me. The Father and I are one. But i think i understand your point of view. So i tell you, man is nothing but dust! They are somethings which God has not revealed to man, so focus on the teachings of Christ built around faith, hope and love. And pray about everything.

we sing a song in Yorùbá

mo gba Olorun baba elédùmàrè gbo ,  ko ko ko di ko ko
eni ti a bi ninu maria wundia - di ko ko di ko ko
eni to ku ta si sin - ko di ko ko
, null.

georgecso:

The fact is that God has designed our heart to curious but the truth is that our mind is[b] too finite[/b] to comprehend the nature of God.
God created humans in His own image i.e Tripartied; Body, spirit & soul.
In God, these part can exist independently but in human no way.
But check out various religion views about Jesus

Do you realize that Jesus not only spoke
to the seven churches in the book of
Revelation through John, but that He was
also speaking to the church today? I believe
we are living today in the last generation
before Jesus Christ will return to earth with
His feet touching the Mount of Olives.
(Zech. 14:2-4)
The seven churches of Revelation;
Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira,
Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea, were
basically centers of seven postal districts in
the interior of the province of Asia. By
sending letters to these seven churches, they
would be shared with the smaller churches
in the outlying districts. During the time that
John wrote the book of Revelation, he was
stranded on Patmos and the church was
coming under severe persecution by the
government of Rome. John wrote the
Apocalypse by means of signs, symbols and
cryptic language in order not to be martyred
by the Roman government. The number
“seven” was and is considered to be the
perfect number, which stands for
completeness. As the true author of the
Book of Revelation, Jesus was delivering
messages of commendation,condemnation,
encouragement, hope, warning and reward
to the church of John’s day, the church
throughout history and today’s church.
The book of Revelation is part of the canon
of Scriptures; thus, it is the inspired Word
of God, and Jesus Christ Himself is the true
author, using John as His secretary. Rev. 1:1
starts out by stating for the record: “The
revelation of Jesus Christ…” Rev. 1:10-11
reads: “I (John) was in the Spirit on the
Lord’s day, and heard behind me, a great
voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha
and Omega, the first and the last: and, what
thou seest write in a book, and send it unto
the seven churches which are in Asia…”
Rev.1:17-19 records: “And when I saw him, I
fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right
hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not: I
am the first and the last: I am he that liveth,
and was dead; and behold, I am alive for
evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell
and of death. Write the things which thou
hast seen, and the things which are, and
the things which shall be hereafter.” It is
intuitively clear that Jesus Christ is the
author, and He alone is speaking to us today.
It is with the authority of God Himself that
He commends, condemns, warns, rebukes
and calls us to repent and be faithful lest we
not only loose our power, anointing and gifts
of the Holy Spirit, but most importantly our
place in the Lamb’s Book of Life itself.
Let’s look closer at the church of Ephesus,
beginning with Rev. 2:1: “Unto the angel of
the church of Ephesus write; These things
saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his
right hand, who walketh in the midst of the
seven golden candlesticks, ” Here John is
saying that Jesus is addressing the Pastor
(angel) of Ephesus, and also Jesus holds the
other Pastors (stars) accountable for the
condition of the churches (golden
candlesticks). Verse 2 and 3 read: “ I know
thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience,
and how thou canst not bear them which
say they are apostles and are not, and hast
found them liars. And hast borne, and hast
patience, and for my name’s sake hast
labored, and hast not fainted.” Jesus in
verse 2 and 3 commends this church and
those like it for their hard, busy, active labor;
“toil which exhausts”. He also commends
them for their patience, meaning their
“triumphant fortitude”. In the area of
orthodoxy Jesus commends them for being
able to discern between good and acceptable
or bad and false teachers. To discern
between a true or false teacher and to have
the fortitude to confront and deal with wrong
teaching is so important because so many
churches are being torn apart by teachers of
heresy and nobody challenges or stops them
from spreading their lies. So this is a busy,
active, strong church by outward
appearances. Possibly they were involved
in evangelistic activities to add members to
the church. Their members were not afraid
to work to build the church physically and
cause it to grow numerically.
First we saw Jesus’ commendation, but
now in verse 4 we read Jesus’ condemnation
of the church in Ephesus: “Nevertheless I
have somewhat against thee, because thou
hast left thy first love.” Jesus follows up
with a command to remember their past sweet
relationship with Himself and their brethren
and a warning to repent for allowing it to slip
away in the business of life and replacing it
with wrong motives for building a mega
church. Verse 5 reads: “Remember therefore
from whence thou art fallen and repent and
do the first works; or else I will come unto
thee quickly, and will remove thy
candlestick out of his place, except thou
repent.” Saints, we all need to be careful
not to neglect our worship of Jesus in
exchange for serving Him with wrong
motives, which might build a businessman’s
mega church, but Jesus Himself condemns
it. When we truly take daily quality time to
love Jesus, then we exhibit His
characteristics to those around us; love, joy,
peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
faith, meekness, temperance. (Gal. 5:22,23)
In a living relationship with Jesus Christ we
are kind one to another and we have mercy
on the widow and the orphan. We treat the
street people with respect and compassion
and visit those in prison. We feed and clothe
the poor and pray for those afflicted
whenever we come in contact with them, not
just in front of a nationally televised
audience. There is such a lack of genuine
ministry today that the heart of Jesus grieves
as ministers of notoriety showcase their
supposed gifts of the Holy Spirit and build
their mega churches with wrong motives. The
strong warning was to “repent” or Jesus
would “remove thy candlestick”. To
“remove” means to judge, and history
January 16, 2003
records that the church of Ephesus did not
take Jesus’ warning seriously enough.
Today in Ephesus there is no Christian
church! When a person or church looses
their “first love”, anointing starts to leave.
If that church will not repent, the Holy Spirit
continues to depart, as in Ezekiel’s terrible
vision, and like Samson who shook himself
not realizing that the Spirit of God had left!
Samson was judged; Israel was judged;
Ephesus was judged; and the question is,
are you or your church being judged today?
Jesus goes on in verse 6 to commend:
“But this thou hast, that thou hatest the
deeds of the Nicolaitans, which also I hate.”
Nicolaitans were followers of Nicolaus, a
heretic. Jesus hates heresy! The Webster’s
Dictionary defines “heresy” as “religious or
ideological belief opposed to orthodoxy.”
Jesus hates heresy because it confuses
people, thus leading them away from Himself,
consequently giving their allegiance to
another person, god, philosophy, church or
religion, etc. Jesus hates cults because their
teachings deviate from the canon of Scripture
and from the infallibility of the Bible.
Orthodox Christianity believes in the
following essential fundamentals of faith:
1[b]) the inspiration of Scripture and the
inerrancy of the Bible;
2) the Trinity;
3) the deity of Jesus Christ;
4) the virgin birth of Jesus Christ;
5) the substitutionary atonement of Jesus
Christ’s death;
6) the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead;
7) salvation is a gift which comes through
faith in Christ alone;
the literal return of Jesus Christ (the
second coming);
9) a literal heaven;
10) a literal hell;
11) a literal lake of fire.Cults center around a strong charismatic
person who either opposes Jesus Christ or
misrepresents Jesus Christ.[/b] Cults deny
the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of
Jesus Christ. Cults do not accept the canon
of Scriptures as the final authority. They
either reject it or say they have other
revelation that supersedes the Bible. Some
also rely heavily on their religious tradition,
which to them outweighs the authority of
the original canon of Scriptures.
There are over 2000 cults in the United
States alone today.The following are just a
few from Dr. Fleming’s book, “Gatebreakers”:

PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN CULTS
These are organizations that purport to be
Christian but teach some marvelous
revelation (vision, dream or some angel
appeared to them) that has greater authority,
supplements or supersedes the canon of
Scripture. Mormonism, Jehovah’s
Witnesses, Unity, Christian Science, The
Unification Church, and The Way
International are examples.

NEW AGE CULTS
Scientology, Mind Sciences, The Forum
(E.S.T.), UFO’s,etc. In his book
“Understanding the New Age”, author
Russell Chandler gives this definition: “New
Age is a hybrid mix of spiritual, social, and
political forces, and it encompasses
sociology, theology, the physical sciences,
medicine, anthropology, history, the human
potentials movement, sports, and science
fiction…Identifying individuals as full-blown
New Agers is baffling. Some subscribe to
certain portions of New Age, some to
others… The New Age influence touches
virtually every area of life, and thousands of
New Age activists seek to transform society
through New Age precepts…Although new
in style and vocabulary, the movement is in
many ways as old as the Eastern religions of
Hinduism and Buddhism, Western occultism,
and the mystical oracles of ancient Greece
and Egypt. New Age has simply recast the
theory of reincarnation into the language of
Western humanistic psychology, science,
and technology.”

ORIENTAL CULTS
Originate from Hinduism and Buddhism.
Jainism, Sikhism, Hare Krishna, the Divine
Light, the Vedanta Society, ISKON,
Theosophy, Rajneeshism, Dravidians,
Transcendental Meditation, etc.

MIDDLE EAST CULTS
Islam, Bahaism, The Sunnites, The Shiaites,
The Sufi Muslims,Tijjanias, Ahmaddiyas etc.

OCCULT-SPIRITUALISTIC CULTS
Satanism, Witchcraft (WICCA), Spiritism,
Eckankar, Freemasonry, etc.

APOCALYPTIC CULTS
Solar Temple, Heaven’s Gate, Movement for
the Restoration of the Ten Commandments,
Aum Shinrikyo etc.
Remember the dialogue to the seven
churches of Revelation is from the Risen Lord
Jesus Christ Himself. He tells them
emphatically that he hates cults, false
teachers who lead people away from Him to
themselves and their false gods etc. Let us
take a look at what some cults say about
who Jesus is. 1 John chapters 2 & 3 warn us
that Jesus Christ is the son of God that Jesus
Christ is God and if anyone or any other spirit
contradicts this reality it is an anti-Christ.

BAHAI
Jesus was one of nine great world
manifestations. There is no Trinity. He is
not God. He is a prophet beneath
Baha’u’llah.

BUDDHISM
Deny Jesus Christ is God. Gautama Buddha
who rejected certain features of his native
Hinduism, taught that man’s release from
sorrow was not obtainable by any act of
sacrifice or pilgrimage which might be
interpreted as trying to gain favor of a deity.
He also taught that this release came from
the all absorbing knowledge that man’s
selfish desires were rooted in dualistic
delusions about the self. Buddha has been
regarded as a naturalistic atheist by many
both critics and disciples.

CHRISTIAN SCIENCE
Jesus is only a divine idea.

EVOLUTION
Denies the deity of Jesus Christ. This false
doctrine where man is not made in the image
of God but is an evolved animal has provided
a license and justification for evil without
guilt. The relationship between false
religions and the heresy of theistic evolution
is strong. Evolution is the foundation and
structure upon which humanism has built
its societal plagues of euthanasia, abortion,
divorce, racism, homosexuality,
pornography, population control,
reincarnation and every other de-
Christianized program of the United Nations
and their One World Religion which is
syncretism.

FREEMASONS
To them Christ was a mystical figure. Jaobul-
on is God, all men have divine potential.
Freemasonry uses deception to get men
involved and entraps them by secret ritual
rites and secret blood oaths. It blasphemes
the true name of God and purposely removes
the name of Jesus Christ from its Scripture
quotations. Its own writers teach paganism,
spiritism, and the occult. Read the book “The
Truth About Masons”. The Shriners strive
to be the face of the Masonic brotherhood
to the public. If you look carefully at the red
fezzes, you’ll see an Islamic sword and
crescent encrusted with jewels on the front.
The city of Fez represents a bloody slaughter
of 50,000 Christians in the eighth century by
Islamic barbarians. The Muslim murderers
dipped their caps in the blood of the
Christians as a testimony to Allah. In order
to become a Shriner, a man must have risen
through all the degrees of either the Scottish
or York Rites. After an initiation rite in the
Shriners that is obscene, the candidate
swears a blood oath that is four and a half
pages long; agrees that it is non-revocable,
and then takes an oath in the name of Allah.
When people first enter the Masons, I believe
most do not realize the cult they have just
joined. It is not until one progresses up the
ladder and continues to receive their
teachings pertaining to that level of
Masonry do they start to recognize the
satanic depths of Freemasonry. The general
teaching of the degrees and rituals is that
the candidate is in darkness without the light
of Masonry that reveals hidden mysteries.
The following are examples of some of the
oaths they have to take:
1) Entered Apprentice—Candidate is
blindfolded, left arm and breast naked, wears
blue pajamas with one leg missing, noose
around the neck, led around from darkness
to light. It is here that they are given the
white apron. This represents purity and the
covering of sin which is supposed to save
them at judgment day. Masons wear this
when buried. Part of the oath they take at
this level is: “having my throat cut across,
my tongue torn out from its roots, and my
body buried in the rough sands of the sea.”
2) Master Mason—The legend of Hiram
Abiff. Candidate pretends to be Hiram Abiff,
the builder of King Solomon’s Temple (1
Kings 7:13). Their legend teaches that Hiram
was privileged to know the name of the one
true God. He was killed and the name was
lost to men. The initiate acts all of this out.
However, in the end of the ritual the initiate
is raised back to life with the strong grip of
the Lion’s paw by “King Solomon”. This
grip is very important to secret societies. It
is used in the witchcraft rituals of Wicca and
is known as the “Strong Grip of the Lion of
the Tribe of Judah.” Part of the oath at this
level is: “my body severed in two, my bowels
taken from thence and burned to ashes etc.”
(If they revealed the secrets of the order.)
3) Royal Arch Degree—Candidate stands
before someone dressed in a high priest
outfit and has revealed to him “the lost
word”--the “lost name of God” that Hiram
Abiff knew. This is the name that the Mason
has been searching for throughout the rituals
of Masonry. He is told that the true name of
God is Jabulon (or Jaobulon). Now lets break
this name down because in this initiation
ceremony three Masons reveal the name to
the candidate by speaking their part of it,
Jao-bul-on. Jao = Jah meaning Yahweh or
Jehovah, God of Israel. Bul = Baal or Bel,
God of Canaan. On = Osiris, (Egyptian sun
god), God of Egypt.
It should be noted that there are many
references to Jehovah and Adonai also in
the Masonic rituals, but the names are
blasphemed because they are perverted to
represent other than the God of the Holy
Bible. The oath of this level is: “I would
sooner have my skull off than divulge any of
the secrets of this degree unlawfully…and
have my brain exposed to the scorching rays
of the noonday sun.” Some other oaths at
different levels are: Past Master of the York
Rite, “binding myself under no less penalty
than to have my tongue split from tip to root.”
Tenth Degree of the Scottish Rite level, “I do
promise and swear upon the Holy Bible, to
keep exactly in my heart all the secrets that
shall be revealed to me. And in failure of this
by obligation, I consent to have my body
opened perpendicularly, and to be exposed
for eight hours in the air, that the venomous
flies may eat of my entrails, my head to be
cut off and put on the highest pinnacle of
the world.”
Note that in the 17th degree of the Scottish
Rite the candidate is taught that ABADDON
is a sacred name to be honored. ABADDON
is the king over the demons in the pit of hell.
Manley P. Hall, one of the highest level
Masonic authors, claims that the key demon
of the Masons is BAPHOMET, known as
the satanic Goat of Mendes. Albert Pike
substituted a triangle for the cross and said
that it referred to Shiva, Krishna, and Brahma,
The Hindu Trinity. Albert Pike books are
considered by some Masons as
authoritative. He was given the honorary
thirty-third degree of the Scottish Rite in 1857
and became the Grand Commander of the
Supreme Council in 1859 and reigned as the
undisputed head until his death in 1891. The
murder of William Morgan in 1826
triggered a national political movement--
the anti-Masonic party--the first mass
movement in American history organized
to destroy Freemasonry. William Morgan
worked in Batvia, New York, as a stone
mason. Having been initiated as a Royal
Arch Mason, he understood the workings
of the lodge and the rituals within. He
became disgruntled at his Masonic brothers
for refusing to start a Masonic chapter in
Batvia where he hoped to be given the
contract for building the Hall and decided to
publish a book entitled: “Illustrations of
Masonry, Exposing All the Rituals, Secrets,
Handshakes, and Oaths”. The Masons
retaliated by kidnapping and murdering
Morgan.

HARE KRISHNA
Jesus was an enlightened vegetarian teacher
of meditation, maybe Krishna.

HINDUISM
Jesus Christ was a guru, a teacher, or even
avatar of Vishnu. Modern Hinduism allows
for millions of gods. The majority of Hindus,
about 79 percent, worship Vishnu while other
millions worship Shiva, the god of fertility,
whose rituals are as evil as those of the
Canaanites who God commanded the
children of Israel to destroy.

ISLAM
Muslims believe Jesus is only a prophet.
They exalt Allah, a moon deity, and
Muhammad.

JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES
Jesus is Michael the Archangel. The first
being God created. He came as a man, died,
and rose as an invisible spirit; came back
invisible in 1914 to Brooklyn to head
Watchtower.

MOON’S UNIFICATION CHURCH
Jesus was a man who failed; Moon is the
Second Coming. Rev. Sun Myung Moon
has declared that he is the new world
Messiah. Moon claims to have had regular
contact with Buddha, Krishna, Jesus,
Moses, John the Baptist, and other prophets.
Moon claims that Jesus Christ appeared to
him in a vision admonishing him to carry out
the task that Christ had failed to complete.
The Unification Bible, ‘Divine Principle’ was
published in 1957.
It should be noted that the immorality
charge for which Moon was arrested was
based around a blood-cleansing sex ritual
called Pikaruna. “Pikaruna” is based on the
belief that because original sin came through
Eve’s sexual intercourse with Satan, a woman
could have sex three times with Moon, the
perfect man, and thus liquidate her original
sin. After intercourse with Moon a woman
achieved a perfected status, and male church
members could have sexual relations with
her and liquidate their own sin. Couples
experiencing this blood cleansing [could]
produce perfect children. If practiced widely
enough, such a ritual could save the world.
His theology, based upon the 1936 vision,
also includes the divine need for him to have
sexual relations with 70 married women, 70
widows, and 70 virgins.

MORMONS
Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan; one god
in a pantheon of gods; born through physical
incest.

NEW AGE
Jesus was an ascended master, guru, and
spiritual guide, but not God and not Savior.

ROMAN CATHOLICISM
Romanism should be regarded as a
deformation of Christianity, in fact as its
lowest deformation. And this deformation
expresses itself not merely at some, but at
every point of doctrine. They do believe
Jesus is God but historical Christianity
places the Bible, the Logos as supreme in
authority, but this is not so with Catholicism.
Catholicism equates their tradition with the
Bible and thus places the directives of the
church (at times) in a higher authority. This
is quite serious as it undermines the Bible
and what it teaches (Col. 2:8 and Mark 7:6-
9). On November 21, 1964, Pope Paul VI
proclaimed “the title of Mary as Mother of
the Church”. To non-Catholics this
proclamation seems preposterous,
ridiculous and outright heresy since the
Bible says nothing about Mary being the
Mother of the Church. But the mind of a
devout Catholic would willingly accept this
lie because it was spoken by the Pope, who
according to Catholic tradition is the
Apostle Peter’s successor and speaks with
infallibility regarding doctrines of faith and
morals. This is scary stuff for Christians
because we know that the Pope is just
another man who is not infallible and he does
make mistakes. We also know the Pope’s
decisions on doctrine at times is totally
unscriptural and so is his position and title.
The Bible shows a number of facts that
refute Catholicism’s claims of the Pope and
Peter concept:
[b]1) Neither the word ‘pope’ nor the office
of it are mentioned in the Bible.
2) It is not clear that Peter was ever even
in Rome. Paul did not mention it.
3) Jesus changing Peter’s name proves
nothing because he changed the names
of others as well, Mark 3:16-17; 1 John
1:42.
4) Paul’s work seems greater than Peter’s
in comparison, but he never sought
ultimate leadership. Neither do we see
him submitting himself to Peter. Once,
he even rebuked him, Gal 2:11-14.
5) James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19)
appears to be the head of the early
church in Jerusalem not Peter.[/b]Consider the following evidence: James
was named first among the pillars of the
church in Gal. 2:9. Peter distinguished the
name of James in Acts 12:17 after he was
miraculously released from prison by the
angel. “Go, tell these things to James and
the brethren.” At the great Jerusalem
Debate over circumcision, Barnabas, Paul
and Peter submitted to James’ decision. In
Acts 15:19 we see James running the meeting
and deciding: “Wherefore my sentence is,
that we trouble not them, which from among
the Gentiles are turned to God.” Flavius
Josephus is considered one of the most
reliable Jewish historians of all times. He
was born in 37 AD. It is remarkable that he
highly regards James for his righteousness.
Indeed, he speculated that the “desolation”
of Jerusalem was because the Jews murdered
James, but nowhere does he mention Peter.
Martin Luther, a Catholic Monk and
Theologian, after studying the Bible,
protested against the Church of Rome in 1517
by nailing 95 points of disagreement to the
door of a church in Wittenberg, Germany,
coming against Rome’s unscriptural
teachings on the church, the Scriptures and
tradition. Martin Luther was convinced that
the office of Pope was unscriptural. Luther
said: ‘I believe in neither pope nor councils
alone; for it is perfectly well established that
they have frequently erred, as well as
contradicted themselves.

ROSICRUCIAN
Jesus is a manifestation of cosmic
consciousness.

SCIENTOLOGY
Jesus is a false implanted memory in people’s
mind.

SPIRITISTS
Jesus is an advanced medium in the 6th sphere
of astral projection.

THEOSOPHY
Jesus is no greater than other religious
leaders since all men are Christs.

TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION
Jesus was an enlightened guru who never
suffered for anyone. This is one of dozens
of Hindu-related religions that have sprung
up in America as many gurus sought a
following in America.

UNITARIANS
Jesus was a good man that followers
mistakenly deified.

UNITY
Jesus was a man who perfected a divine idea.

THE WAY
Jesus is the Son of God, but not God the
Son; they deny the Trinity.

YOGA
Denies Jesus is God. The teachings and
techniques of yoga were incorporated into
the Hindu religion about 100 BC by Patanjali
in the Yoga Sutras. Yoga became one of six
schools of thought regarding salvation
through knowledge (Jnana Marga)…Yoga
means ‘yoke or union with God.’ God is the
Impersonal All and Universal Soul to which
they want to yoke themselves…In the
Western world, yoga is often thought of as
simple isometric exercises, but it is much
deeper than that. Yoga has become the
leading method for Hindus to transcend this
world of illusion. The union with their god
that a yogi hopes to achieve is supposedly
reached only after living a moral life, gaining
inner and outer purity, and training the body
through various exercises and postures.
I could go on and on listing cults and
their teachings. What they all have in
common is a deviation or outright rejection
of the canon of Scriptures. They all reject
Jesus is God or they have a person who now
can add or nullify the Scriptures by their own
authority and church tradition. They all have
some teacher, prophet, guru, apostle, bishop,
pope etc., who has received new revelation
or additional revelation from a dream, vision,
angel etc. Gal. 1:6-9 warns: “I marvel that
ye are so soon removed from him that called
you into the grace of Christ unto another
gospel: Which is not another; but there be
some that trouble you, and would pervert
the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an
angel from heaven preach any other gospel
unto you than that which we have preached
unto you, let him be accursed. As we said
before, so say I now again, if any man preach
any other gospel unto you than that ye have
received, let him be accursed.”
The Canon of Scriptures did not include
the Apocrypha and the Canon warns us
clearly not to add or subtract from the
Scriptures lest we be damned. Revelation
22:18-19 reads: “For I testify unto every man
that heareth the words of the prophecy of
this book, if any man shall add unto these
things, God shall add unto him the plagues
that are written in this book: And if any
man shall take away from the words of the
book of this prophecy, God shall take away
his part out of the book of life, and out of
the holy city, and from the things which are
written in this book.”
The Apocrypha is a Greek word meaning
hidden or concealed. The Apocrypha books
were rejected from the canon of Scriptures
because they did not meet the criteria for
canonization. Examples of criteria for books
to be considered inspired, infallible: 1) the
word of God had Apostolic Authorship; 2)
was recognized and used by leading
churches or the majority of them; and, 3) a
conformity to the standards of sound
doctrine as from the Lord. The church
fathers had a standard and followed the rule,
“if in doubt, throw it out.”
Orthodox Christians who submit to the
canon of Scriptures reject the Apocrypha.
Roman Catholicism has included it in their
own Roman Catholic Bible to support their
church tradition and teachings which go
against the Bible, thus making the Word of
God null and void in those circumstances.
The priests and Pope totally disregard the
strong warnings in the canon of Scriptures
against adding or subtracting or drawing the
glory away from Jesus and giving it to a man
or woman. Thus, Catholics in many
instances go against the teachings of Jesus
Christ in order to obey the teaching of the
Pope.
Dr. Fleming in his book, “Gatebreakers:
Answering Cults and World Religions with
Prayer, Love and Witnessing”, states the
following: “The reasons the Apocrypha was
and is rejected as authoritative and Godinspired
Scripture is: One, Jesus never
quoted the Apocrypha and did not
acknowledge it as Scripture. Two, the first
century apostles did not quote it or recognize
it as equal to Scripture. Three, the books
were rejected by the Jewish Council of Jamnia
(A.D.90). Four, it is rejected by modern day
Jews and not a part of their canon. Five, it
was not originally included in the Greek
Septuagint by the seventy. Six, Jerome never
regarded the Apocrypha as Scripture. He
only translated the books under coercion and
never accepted them as Scripture. After his
death, the books were added to his Latin
Vulgate. Seven, Augustine did acknowledge
the Apocrypha in his early writings, but his
later writings clearly reflected a rejection of
these books as outside the canon and
inferior to the Hebrew scriptures.
Furthermore, he presided over the African
council of Hippo that canonized the New
Testament, rejecting all other books. Eight,
the Roman Catholic Church itself did not
recognize these books until the Council of
Trent (1545-1563), and this was done as a
reaction to the Protestant Reformation and
to legitimize some of their doctrinal matters.
(Example: 2 Maccabees 12:45-46 gives them
their doctrine of praying for the dead). Nine,
the books abound in historical and
geographical inaccuracies. Ten, they teach
false doctrines that are at odds with other
Scripture. Eleven, they lack the distinctive
elements that give Scripture divine character.
Twelve, the books never claim to be the Word
of God or given by prophets.”
Rene Pache in his book, “The Inspiration
and Authority of Scritpture”, points out
some of the many problems with the
Apocrypha. He says: “Except for certain
interesting historical information (especially
in 1 Maccabees) and a few beautiful moral
thoughts (e.g. wisdom of Solomon), these
books contain absurd legends and
platitudes, and historical, geographical and
chronological errors, as well as manifestly
heretical doctrines; they even recommend
immoral acts (Judith 9:10,13).” Pachs
contends that Rome added the Apocrypha
to justify their human traditions. “Now, we
must remember that it was the Jews who were
called upon to compile the Old Testament.
As Paul said, it was to them that the oracles
of God were confided (Romans 3:1-2). We
received those oracles from their hands and
no one else. Why, then did Rome take so
new and daring a position? Because
confronted by the Reformation, she lacked
arguments to justify her unscriptural
deviations. Consequently, she declared that
the Apocryphal books supported such
doctrines as prayers for the dead (II Macc.
12:44); the expiatory sacrifice (eventually to
become the mass, (II Macc. 12:39-46);
almsgiving with expiatory value, also leading
to deliverance from dead (Tobit 12:9; 4:10);
invocation and intercession of the saints (II
Macc.15:14; Bar. 3:4); the worship of angels
(Tobit 12:12); purgatory; and the redemption
of souls after death (II Macc. 12:42, 46).”
For your information, the books of the
Apocrypha are 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit,
Judith, the additions to Esther, the Wisdom
of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, the
Letter of Jeremiah, the additions to the Book
of Daniel (the Prayer of Asariah and the Song
of the Three Young Men; Susanna; and Bel
and the Dragon), the Prayer of Manasseh, 1
Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees.
Jesus finally ends with a warning to the
Ephesus church in Revelation 2:7: “He that
hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit
saith unto the churches; To him that
overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of
life, which is in the midst of the paradise of
God.”
Once again, the number “seven”
represents completeness or totality. Jesus,
the Risen Lord Himself, is speaking to the
churches then and the churches now. In
Ephesus we see some good things that the
church was doing. In fact, originally it was
out of a loving, pure heart. Nevertheless,
over time, the cause and intent became wrong.
Where initially they worked with their hands,
energies, resources and talents to build a
church, building with the holiest of motives
for Jesus’ glory and to truly bring the lost
into the kingdom, eventually that became
secondary. Without realizing it, pastors and
elders were continually developing and
glamorizing the structure for their own
prestige. In the beginning they evangelized
to actually bring people out of paganism into
the light of Jesus Christ and into eternal life
because of their deep first love (Jesus). Now
they were doing evangelism for themselves
to show how correct, powerful and respected
they were and are amongst the church
community and society. Consequently, they
compromised more, failing to deal with each
person impartially. Instead they considered
their position in wealth, in the church, and
within the community. They were slowly but
consistently loosing their first love and
making decisions based on (as Solomon
would eventually admit) vanity.
Jesus was and is telling the church to love
Him first and foremost with all their heart so
as to develop His character and grow in His
image whereby they actually can represent
Him here on earth and render correct justice
and judgment. With passion and
compassion they are to feed the poor, take
care of the widow and orphan, visit and
comfort those in prison, heal the sick, deliver
the oppressed and possessed, and walk and
grow with power and anointing.
Jesus used the term “to him that
overcometh” because He knew the mentality
of the Ephesian culture with their games,
rewards, etc. In Asia, during the time of the
Ephesian church, the governor had a palace
in the city of Ephesus. Also, the Pan Ionic
Games, which were second only to the
Olympics, were held in Ephesus. The city
has been called “the Vanity Fair of the
ancient world”. As does Seattle,
Washington, Ephesus possessed one of the
greatest seaports, so she was a very rich
and proud city. One of the seven wonders
of the Ancient world, the Temple of Artemis
was located at Ephesus, which made
Ephesus a very liberal, immoral, and pagan
city. Heraclitus, a philosopher in Ephesus is
reported to have said: “The inhabitants of
Ephesus are fit only to be drowned. The
reason I never laugh or smile is that I lived
among such terrible uncleanness.” He was
referring to deep immorality such as
homosexuality, lesbianism, adultery,
fornication, etc. As an athlete in Ephesus
had to train to win and overcome, Jesus told
the church that they too must be as
dedicated to fight in this battle against
conforming to the culture and values of this
world. Out of their first love for Him they
must with all patience (fortitude) spend daily
time alone with Him in worship, meditation,
study and prayer. They must, in the power
of their relationship with Him, confront those
around them in this pagan community and
win them over, just as an athlete in the Roman
games wants to finish first, overcoming all
of his competition and resistance. The
Christian now must overcome the
temptations to conform to society’s
lifestyles, and, instead, daily try to convert
the people to Jesus’ kingdom. Where the
athlete who won the games in Ephesus ate
and wallowed in the beauties of Ephesus,
Jesus promised those of us who “overcome”
will eat from “the tree of life” and enjoy the
glories of heaven forever.

Georgecso, you're welcome to nairaland.com

JESUS CHRIST WAS A GURU

The spiritual leader of the Hare krishna Movement here recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as " the son of God,the representative of God, our Guru, our Spiritual Master,"yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers,

A vaisnava is unhappy to see the suffering of others.Therefore, Lord Jesus Christ agreed to be crucified--to free others from their suffering. But his followers are so unfaithful that they have decided,"Let Christ suffer for us,and we'll go on committing sin". They love Christ so much that they think "My dear Christ, we are very weak?We cannot give up our sinful activities? so you please suffer for us."

Jesus Christ thought,"Thou shalt not kill" But his followers have now decided,Let us kill anyway;and they have open big,modern,scientific slaughterhouses.If there is any sin, Christ will suffer for us.This is a most abominable conclusion.

A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA.
Founder Hare Krishna Movement.

Echidime:

JESUS CHRIST WAS A GURU

The spiritual leader of the Hare krishna Movement here recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as " the son of God,the representative of God, our Guru, our Spiritual Master,"yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers,

A vaisnava is unhappy to see the suffering of others.Therefore, Lord Jesus Christ agreed to be crucified--to free others from their suffering. But his followers are so unfaithful that they have decided,"Let Christ suffer for us,and we'll go on committing sin". They love Christ so much that they think "My dear Christ, we are very weak?We cannot give up our sinful activities? so you please suffer for us."

Jesus Christ thought,"Thou shalt not kill" But his followers have now decided,Let us kill anyway;and they have open big,modern,scientific slaughterhouses.If there is any sin, Christ will suffer for us.This is a most abominable conclusion.

A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA.
Founder Hare Krishna Movement.

This is how deceit begins. Jesus Christ the Son of God stated:

John 10:14 & 27 - "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

A true Christian does not follow the bogus lies of A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA.

Read John 17:3

Read the Bible - The Word of God.

John 1:1 & 8:24.

As well as Gen. 1:1

In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. Does that sound reasonably enough? Note that God is the only Creator and Grand Maker of all. Take a look at Luke Chapter 4. It contains a chronology of persons right from Jesus to Adam. All were sons of someone, including Adam who was created by God himself. And as you read further to the account of Noah, there is mentioned of Sons of God. If God can call those Sons, Why not Jesus?

And another thing, Trinity IS NOT BIBLICAL.

i've always felt jesus christ is a part of God.he is not 100% God cos if he is, then who did he pray to on the cross?(if thy will, please take this cup away from me!)was he praying to himself or to someone else?do you actually think God in his magnitude would have been crucified by we men?do you actually think that for the 3days jesus was in the grave there was no one in heaven watching over the rest of mankind?what of all the time jesus was on earth, you mean there was no one in heaven?jesus said in his fathers house there are many mansions,was he referring to himself since he is 100% God? just food for thought guys.

@firestar,

firestar:

As well as Gen. 1:1

In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. Does that sound reasonably enough? Note that God is the only Creator and Grand Maker of all. Take a look at Luke Chapter 4. It contains a chronology of persons right from Jesus to Adam. All were sons of someone, including Adam who was created by God himself. And as you read further to the account of Noah, there is mentioned of Sons of God. If God can call those Sons, Why not Jesus?

And another thing, Trinity IS NOT BIBLICAL.

The Trinity IS Biblical, otherwise John 1:1 continues to be a huge problem for all those who continue to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ.

The chronology of names in Luke 3 does not in any way negate the fact that Jesus Christ preceded them all. All of them were created; but Jesus Christ is the CREATOR, as John 1:3 declares. None of those names in Luke 3 up to and including Adam could claim the same thing that is said of Christ in John 1:3.

Other features of the Deity of Jesus Christ that NO ONE ELSE could claim includes John 10:30 where Jesus said: "I and my Father are one." The jews characteristically knew the import of that statement; and reading further, Jesus did not refute the interpretation He meant to convey to their understanding.

There are many other verses that show the Deity of Jesus Christ; and as far as that is revealed in Scripture, denying that the Trinity is Biblical only serves the thinking of those who wish it so without Biblical revelation.