OgboAto:



Actually the Noah story isn't true. It was adopted from the mysticism of other cultures just like Osiris & Horus story was adapted to the virgin status of Mary & saviour-murder status of Jesus. You just need to read a little bit more.

Lols, you actually have no idea.

I actually can figure your level of awareness because I used to be where you're currently at. But the difference today is that I proceeded even further.

The idea that the Story of Noah was borrowed from Mesopotamian myths (and that the Jesus Story too was borrowed from myths) are some of the ideas that almost every young person who have at some point at least contemplated non-theism (agnosticism, atheism, etc.) must have stumbled upon in one way or the other.

The idea is actually itself the myth which is unfortunately popular and accepted by young people hook, line, and sinker without hesitation and scrutiny. They simply want to be seen as different and "free-thinking" which is not bad, but the sacrifice for that shouldn't be objective research.

The reality, however, is that geologists, archaeologists, goe-mythologists, anthropologists, oceanographers, et al. who have conducted investigations on the Noah Story do not share in the foregoing youthful unsubstantiated sentiments of the young and 'emotional' non-theists, even though the unproven hypothesis of borrowing from myth sounds and appears "woke".

The submission of experts, as far as the Story of Noah is concerned, is that it is a true historical event which influenced many myths around the world, and not the other way round.

I can submit a whole thesis on this position -- backed by overwhelming academic evidence -- to you in few minutes if you're willing to have an healthy, meaningful and cordial engagement, but prior to that you will have to assure me that you're willing to learn.

OgboAto:


There's no Ikedu anywhere, my G. The first person to present that thesis was Prof Akinjogbin who was only able to gather excerpts of it from Oral Tradition. No one speaks or knows about Ikedu. Not even Ife or Ugbo.

Lols,

Please cite me the prominent scholars whose position you just echoed above.

You see, you need to be very aware that you're no authority. So, you really have to substantiate your claim with reference to your source.

Modified:

However, just for the sake of informing you, experts such as Cornelius have made reference to certain content of the surviving text (which even bears the name of its compiler) again and again.

forgiveness:


90% will have nothing to do with idol.

In Nigeria, most of them still visit Babalowo and worship deities behind closed doors.

Amujale:


That is your opinion, nobody is here to discuss Ikedu with you.

Assuming you really want to learn and understand then you can always visit the right places. Becoming an apprentice to a good priest or visit the many royal palaces and seek their attention.


Thank You

LOL.

You do not even know me or where I am from yet you speak of visiting the right places. The computer/phone screen really affords people one serious delusion yo!

TAO11:


Lols, you actually have no idea.

I really can figure out your level of awareness on this because I used to be where you're currently at. But the difference today is that I proceeded even further.

The idea that the Story of Noah was borrowed from Mesopotamian myths (and that the Jesus Story too was borrowed from myths) are some of the ideas that almost every young person who have at some point (at least) contemplated non-theism (agnosticism, atheism, etc.) must have stumbled upon in one way or the other.

Some others cling to the idea just because they seek to abandon and dissociate from the organized Abrahamic faiths at any cost, reasonable or not.

The idea is actually itself the myth which is unfortunately popular and accepted by young people hook, line, and sinker without hesitation and scrutiny. They simply want to be seen as different and "free-thinking" which is not bad, but the sacrifice for that shouldn't be objective research.

The reality, however, is that geologists, archaeologists, goe-mythologists, anthropologists, oceanographers, et al. who have conducted investigations on the Noah Story do not share in the foregoing youthful unsubstantiated sentiments of the young and 'emotional' non-theists, even though the unproven hypothesis of borrowing from myth sounds and appears "woke".

The submission of experts, as far as the Story of Noah is concerned, is that it is a true historical event which influenced many myths around the world, and not the other way round.

I can submit a whole thesis on this position to you in few minutes if you're willing to have an engagement, but prior to that you will have to assure me that you're willing to learn.

You are highly deluded. You do not know me - heck, you do not even know if I work in any of the fields you've listed above. Just to impress your fans and yourself, you went on a tirade of nonsensical conjecture.

OgboAto:



You are highly deluded. You do not know me - heck, you do not even know if I work in any of the fields you've listed above. Just to impress your fans and yourself, you went on a tirade of nonsensical conjecture.

Lol!

In which of these fields did you investigate the Noah Flood Story?: Geology, archaeology, oceanography, or anthropology.

What is your name? Cite me your publication with detailed refrence in relation to your investigation of the Story.

'Ngbeke' feeling funky! You better talk if you're willing to learn or not.

And yes I used to be like you at least seven years ago.

I was busy marauding like you with the unproven claim that the Flood of Noah never occured, of course without any evidence to back the claim, just as you haven't been able to adduce even one shred of evidence

-- I mean just one shred of evidence that could resist objective scrutiny, lol!

You're simply socialized by pseudointellectual pressure into the unproven idea that the Flood never occured, you have absolutely no evidence that can stand the test of scrutiny.

TAO11:


Lols,

Please cite me the prominent scholars whose position you just echoed above.

You see, you need to be very aware that you're no authority. So, you really have to substantiate your claim with reference to your source.

Modified:

However, just for the sake of informing you, experts such as Cornelius have made reference to certain content of the surviving text (which even bears the name of its compiler) again and again.

You do not know if you've come to my field, you need to really relax. I think the kids you've engaged and impressed is beginning to gas you up. You're beginning to go out of what you know - you're reaching. You're an history ethusiast who probably began to dig into secondary sources [written history] as a result of exposure to Nairaland. Smh.

There's no Ikedu anywhere. Every scholar has cited Akinjogbin. None has laid their hands on written or oral data which Professor Akinjogbin consulted. In fact, their analysis have been greatly limited to what Professor Akinjogbin gave in his work. Again, there's no Ikedu anywhere. No one speaks it. Not even the boisterious Olugbo or Alaafin who are desperately trying to prove something have been able to give us detailed Ikedu beyond what Professor Akinjogbin tinkered with.

You may want to focus on these kids you're impressing who have erroneously compared you with the great Katsumoto.

TAO11:


Lols, you actually have no idea.

I really can figure out your level of awareness on this because I used to be where you're currently at. But the difference today is that I proceeded even further.

The idea that the Story of Noah was borrowed from Mesopotamian myths (and that the Jesus Story too was borrowed from myths) are some of the ideas that almost every young person who have at some point (at least) contemplated non-theism (agnosticism, atheism, etc.) must have stumbled upon in one way or the other.

Some others cling to the idea just because they seek to abandon and dissociate from the organized Abrahamic faiths at any cost, reasonable or not.

The idea is actually itself the myth which is unfortunately popular and accepted by young people hook, line, and sinker without hesitation and scrutiny. They simply want to be seen as different and "free-thinking" which is not bad, but the sacrifice for that shouldn't be objective research.

The reality, however, is that geologists, archaeologists, goe-mythologists, anthropologists, oceanographers, et al. who have conducted investigations on the Noah Story do not share in the foregoing youthful unsubstantiated sentiments of the young and 'emotional' non-theists, even though the unproven hypothesis of borrowing from myth sounds and appears "woke".

The submission of experts, as far as the Story of Noah is concerned, is that it is a true historical event which influenced many myths around the world, and not the other way round.

I can submit a whole thesis on this position to you in few minutes if you're willing to have an engagement, but prior to that you will have to assure me that you're willing to learn.

You are highly deluded. You do not know me - heck, you do not even know if I work in any of the fields you've listed above. Just to impress your fans and yourself, you went on a tirade of nonsensical conjecture.

TAO11:


Lol!

In which of these fields did you investigate the Noah Flood Story?: Geology, archaeology, oceanography, or anthropology.

What is your name? Cite me your publication with detailed refrence in relation to your investigation of the Story.

'Ngbeke' feeling funky! You better talk if you're willing to learn or not.

And yes I used to be like you at least seven years ago.

I was busy marauding like you with the unproven claim that the Flood of Noah never occured, of course without any evidence to back the claim, just as you haven't been able to adduce even one shred of evidence

-- I mean just one shred of evidence that could resist objective scrutiny, lol!

You're simply socialized by pseudointellectual pressure into the unproven idea that the Flood never occured, you have absolutely no evidence that can stand the test of scrutiny.

LOOOL demanding much?

Check my previous post to you, attached her photos from Manly P Hall's work, a compediun of several well researched thesis on in

OgboAto:


You do not know if you've come to my field, you need to really relax. I think the kids you've engaged and impressed is beginning to gas you up. You're beginning to go out of what you know - you're reaching. You're an history ethusiast who probably began to dig into secondary sources [written history] as a result of exposure to Nairaland. Smh.

There's no Ikedu anywhere. Every scholar has cited Akinjogbin. None has laid their hands on written or oral data which Professor Akinjogbin consulted. In fact, their analysis have been greatly limited to what Professor Akinjogbin gave in his work. Again, there's no Ikedu anywhere. No one speaks it. Not even the boisterious Olugbo or Alaafin who are desperately trying to prove something have been able to give us detailed Ikedu beyond what Professor Akinjogbin tinkered with.

You may want to focus on these kids you're impressing who have erroneously compared you with the great Katsumoto.

Oga, all you did was simply repeat your empty claim without providing any evidence.

Again, cite me the prominent scholars whose position you just echoed above because you are no authority, so you should substantiate your claims.

It is pointless to go into a debate, dialogue, etc. when the co-debater is simply stating their personal opinion while passing it off as facts, lol.

Cite your references backing your claim that there is nothing like Ikedu, lol!

Moreover, I had noted that Cornelius Adepegba alluded to the text and he didn't have to cite Akinjogbin, smiles!

Also, I have personally heard from a Professor in Missouri State, U.S. who knows and has worked with people from the Noth-Eastern border of the Yoruba region in Nigeria (i.e. our people in Kogi, Yagba, etc.) who are well versed in the ancient Ikedu tradition.

Overall, I observed a sense of insecurity in your tone. I think you should put that to check. Please work on it.

OgboAto:


LOOOL demanding much?

Check my previous post to you, attached her photos from Manly P Hall's work, a compediun of several well researched thesis on in

Smiles ...

I had anticipated your folly and bungle and you didn't dissapoint with your so-called evidence.

It is obvious even from a cursory reading of the statement you submitted as evidence that the statement in no way supports your imagination that the Story of Noah borrowed or copied from the mythologies.

Rather, the statement shows in very clear terms that (if anyone ever borrowed from the other considering the similarity) it is the cult of Mithras that actually borrowed from the Judeo-Christian Stories. And that is the point I had defended when I written earlier on that:

" The submission of experts is that, as far as the Story of Noah (and the Flood of course) is concerned, is that it is a true historical event which influenced many myths around the world, and not the other way round. "

The statement you provided noted in relation to the Flood and the Ark among other common similar stories that:

" There are many point of resemblance between Christianity and the cult of Mithras. One of the REASONS for this (i.e. for the similarity and commonality of their stories) is that the Persian mystic INVADED Italy during the first century AFTER CHRISTIANITY ..."

How then in your warped mind could "A "possibly have borrowed an idea from "B", if their point of contact wasn't until after A had formed the idea?

Use your upper!

Again, are you ready to learn or not?

TAO11:


Oga, all you did was simply repeat your empty claim without providing any evidence.

Again, cite me the prominent scholars whose position you just echoed above because you are no authority, so you should substantiate your claims.

It is pointless to go into a debate, dialogue, etc. when the co-debater is simply stating their personal opinion while passing it off as facts, lol.

Cite your references backing your claim that there is nothing like Ikedu, lol!

Moreover, I had noted that Cornelius Adepegba alluded to the text and he didn't have to cite Akinjogbin, smiles!

Also, I have personally heard from a Professor in Missouri State, U.S. who knows and has worked with people from the Noth-Eastern border of the Yoruba region in Nigeria (i.e. our people in Kogi, Yagba, etc.) who are well versed in the ancient Ikedu tradition.

Overall, I observed a sense of insecurity in your tone. I think you should put that to check. Please work on it.

Your delusion is major and your knack for personal-esque conclusions is out of this world.

You are not a very bright person. You are one of such internet historians with no training in the field but jump on topical issues and act like they're in the know of what they say. Meanwhile more damage is being done by their delusion induced ignorance. I know your comment about a Professor in the US is a lie; no Professor who nows his/her onions would make such a careless and unfounded statement.

The first person to inject Ikedu into Ife/Yoruba history in writing was Akinjogbin. His interpretation of the data wasn't very broad and that was as a result of the meagre information which he could gather on Ikedu. No one in Yagba/Okun speaks Ikedu and neither it is a tradition that affects or connects to them in any direct measure. Ikedu, according to Akinjogbin, was a sort of 'Awo' literature taught and learnt by initates of the Ikedu school. In essence, it is not a knowledge available to the public. From lexicostatistical data presented by scholars like Akinkugbe and Oga like Professor Ogen, Ikedu is said to be closely related to Ugbo language and in turn related to Ife dialect. Be that as it may, the fact remains, no one, not even the Olugbo and Alaafin who spend millions on gathering data in order to boost the position of their throne and further denigrate the Ooni's stool have been able to lay hand on any Ikedu text or speaker. Prof Akinjogbin claimed to have collected Ikedu in Ife but no one seems to know what Ikedu is, rather, what we have here is regarded as 'Oro Ife', an archaic type of language/terms spoken in Ife which is now closely restricted within certain Awo circles. Guess what? It shares no similarity with the Ikedu presented by Akinjogbin, Olugbo and several other writers who have made reference to it.

Professor Adepegba in his work referred to one Odukoya but the footnote of the paper does not provide a citation of that Odukoya. This implies two things: the Ikedu collected by Odukoya was irrelevant and incosequential in the argument of the paper OR the Ikedu collected by that Odukoya was non-existent. And consequently, the Prof had to mention it in passing.

Y

TAO11:


Smiles ...

I had anticipated your folly and bungle and you didn't dissapoint with your so-called evidence.

It is obvious even from a cursory reading of the statement you submitted as evidence that the statement in no way supports your imagination that the Story of Noah borrowed or copied from the mythologies.

Rather, the statement shows in very clear terms that (if anyone ever borrowed from the other considering the similarity) it is the cult of Mithras that actually borrowed from the Judeo-Christian Stories. And that is the point I had defended when I written earlier on that:

" The submission of experts is that, as far as the Story of Noah (and the Flood of course) is concerned, is that it is a true historical event which influenced many myths around the world, and not the other way round. "

The statement you provided noted in relation to the Flood and the Ark among other common similar stories that:

" There are many point of resemblance between Christianity and the cult of Mithras. One of the REASONS for this (i.e. for the similarity and commonality of their stories) is that the Persian mystic INVADED Italy during the first century AFTER CHRISTIANITY ..."

How then in your warped mind could "A "possibly have borrowed an idea from "B", if their point of contact wasn't until after A had formed the idea?

Use your upper!

Again, are you ready to learn or not?

Damn, I give up at this point.

You mean to say the cult of Mithras [Zoroastrainism] and the Egyptian cult of Horus both which predates Abrahamic cult by hundreds of years copied from the Jewish cult?

Did you see the part where the author said that Christianity and Mithra share similarities because Persian army invaded Italy - the seat of Roman Catholicism and as such, the alegories/stories of Mithra diffused into Christianity?
O o ni brains mehn.




Read further.

X

OgboAto:




Damn, I give up at this point.

You mean to say the cult of Mithras [Zoroastrainism] and the Egyptian cult of Horus both which predates Abrahamic cult by hundreds of years copied from the Jewish cult?

Did you see the part where the author said that Christianity and Mithra share similarities because Persian army invaded Italy - the seat of Roman Catholicism and as such, the alegories/stories of Mithra diffused into Christianity?
O o ni brains mehn.




Read further.

Egbon, no need to insult. Tao hasn't been very polite, professional, and objective. We can disagree on analysis, but he/she has been very very objective.

I know you are not Katsumoto because Kat's is strictly a historian.

Now back to Ikedu.

The Ikedu stuff, assuming it once existed, wasn't written down? All the academic sources I have read, mostly Adepegba and Blier referred to it as oral history.

Still early Yorubas did not write anything down, it seems?

Do you have references?

wowcatty:
Shut it already! You are triple obnoxious and disgusting. Whatever feeling you have should naturally rot in your gut. Ko ni da fun iyalaya e if you don't block me. Who cares what you think, your fantasy can only be lived out anonymously on faceless forum,. You will still go back to be the real failure you are, and an attention seeking whcre who 'd rather be someone else instead of your hopeless self.

Baba n la sa laro ni were yi sha

It seems like you enjoy trolling . . . I hope you find what you are looking for.

I hope you get laid before it is too late. . . It will do you a world of good.

TAO11:


You try hard to give off the impression of being aware but you're just not. Anyone can make thousands of grandiose claims, but if they can't substantiate them, then they simply still amount to nothing.

Your primary claim that Ikedu does not exist, no one knows what Ikedu is, etc. is still yet to be backed up by any source at all, let alone an authoritative source.

You had bungled when you noted that every scholar cites Akinjogbin when they make allusion to Ikedu, and when I showed you that Cornelius Adepeba did not (but instead cited the original compiler of the text, i.e. a certain Odukoya) you ignored your bungle and attempted your failed damage control stunt to the effect that you don't know who Odukoya is. Lol!

And the specific cheap face-saving excuse you gave was that Cornelius Adepegba did not provide the footnote to identify Odukoya, even though the excuse is obviously ineffective in rescuing you from the mess that every scholar cites Akinjogbin.

However, Cornelius Adepegba actually didn't make any attempt in the first place to give a footnote to the name "Odukoya" on that page 83 of the Journal in which his "The Descent from Oduduwa" was published. So, the question of the footnote not citing Odukoya doesn't come up.

In fact, how was he to cite an ancient compiler of an ancient text? Did you really expect that the Odukoya would have included the year of his publication, ISBN, etc. in his compilation? You're just being a joke that you obviously are!

And Cornelius Adepegba wasn't doing a critique of Ikedu when he alluded to it (contrary to your seeming suggestion along those lines), he was actually alluding to it as a piece of supporting evidence to the thesis that "monarchical system of government had been established in Ife before Oduduwa".

You actually confirmed my assertion that you're just being an intimidated and insecure person when you noted that my "comment about a Professor in the US is" false. You are just a bored rookie looking for relevance.

I did hear from Bukola Oyeniyi, PhD who is a faculty member in the Department of History at Missouri State University, United States when he once said that he has worked with people from the North-Eastern Yoruba border (i.e. our people in Kogi, Yagba, etc.) who are well versed in the ancient Ikedu tradition.

If you really want to confirm from him if he said that or not, I am willing to give you his contact if you drop your contact detail. In fact, you may check up his contact details on his page on the University's webpage. It's public information. You could be invited over if he finds you interesting, but perhaps on the condition that you're willing to learn.

And it is not only Cornelius Adepegba who did not make reference to Akinjogbin. Bukola Oyeniyi in his joint publication with Professor Toyin Falola also made allusion to Ikedu wherein they touched on the mythology of Orisanobu-Oghene and his slave Oko.


You seem to be so stuck in your imaginative ideas which you have no evidence whatsoever for.

I expected a much better come back but well, with every post one can tell History wasn't what you went to school to be trained for; rather it is a new hobby you picked up.

Wht kind of statement is this?

In fact, how was he to cite an ancient compiler of an ancient text? Did you really expect that the Odukoya would have included the year of his publication, ISBN, etc. in his compilation? You're just being a joke that you obviously are!

How was he supposed to cite an ancient compiler? Are you serious? Wow.

Also, if History was what you were trained in school you would not keep harping upon 'evidence' which to you is a written source. A written source is regarded as a secondary data which is considered unequal to Primary data which in my case is oral source.

The Ikedu you're talking your neck out over has been used within the context of Ife history. Nothing else. And I, in my previous post stated I have asked around & no one here in Ife knows Ikedu - my sources are within my maternal, paternal lineages [both which hold important places in Ife] & across board in Ife. Rather, what is know here is 'Oro Ife' which is used by Monle, certain classes of Isoro & a few others. Secondary data are solely to help build knowledge or a gap in a study, it is not the ultimate. Sitting behind a screen and dishing out references is not a 'thing', get up for your butt & come down here to conduct an investigation.

I said the Ikedu is non-existent because it is unknown to Ife people whom the Ikedu supposedly talked about & also, all available research discussing Ikedu in whatever measure have not been able to provide a citation to the suppoaed 'ancient text'. Not Akinjogbin, Not Adepegba, Not Blier, Not Falola. Everyone seems to regurgitate each other, no one has provided the complete or atleast, detailed information on Ikedu. If Ikedu was indeed in existent, the desperate Alaafin or Olugbo will readily pay millions to have it.

Also, you are quite immature with your reference to insecurity. It is an infantile thing to assume I called you out on your US professor because of whatever imaginative thinking you concocted. Rather, I called you out because no Professor would take such risk to identify Ikedu that is said to speak primarily on Ife with Okun/Yagba. Wetin be Okun/Yagba with Ikedu that Ife which is its primary concern does not know. Do you see your logic now?

oduademonest:



Egbon, no need to insult. Tao hasn't been very polite, professional, and objective. We can disagree on analysis, but he/she has been very very objective.

I know you are not Katsumoto because Kat's is strictly a historian.

Now back to Ikedu.

The Ikedu stuff, assuming it once existed, wasn't written down? All the academic sources I have read, mostly Adepegba and Blier referred to it as oral history.

Still early Yorubas did not write anything down, it seems?

Do you have references?

I apprecated that s/he check the Bini revisionist. However, some of his/her claims her misplaced.

Ikedu was not written down but authors referred to it as 'sacred text' but none of these authors have provided a citation for these texts & neither have they provided details, they all just repeated the same things. Here in Ife, no one knows Ikedu. Even old Professors who are Ife indigenes never set eyes on the sacred texts nor found any Ife person that has heard it. Does this not bring the Ikedu claims into question.

Kats was not a Historian. He was a smart intelligent person. He himself alluded to not even being in the academia. The poster I knew to be Historian was Terracotta. I was active back in the days with these people so I'm familiar with them.

OgboAto:




Damn, I give up at this point.

You mean to say the cult of Mithras [Zoroastrainism] and the Egyptian cult of Horus both which predates Abrahamic cult by hundreds of years copied from the Jewish cult?

Did you see the part where the author said that Christianity and Mithra share similarities because Persian army invaded Italy - the seat of Roman Catholicism and as such, the alegories/stories of Mithra diffused into Christianity?
O o ni brains mehn.




Read further.

You need to understand, as a matter of urgency, that ancient cults (e.g. the Cults of Mithras and Horus) and even religions (e.g. Christianity) do not have ALL their stories and episodes -- as we know them today -- determined and frozen in one specific point in time of their respective histories.

Rather, these stories and episodes evolve over the centuries with more other stories even being adopted from other outside stories, cultures, etc. as the centuries pass.

Thus, the fact that the Cults of Mithras and the Cult of Horus predate Christianity does NOT imply that NONE of their stories and episodes will ever be influenced by a later ideology (in this case Christianity).

In fact, you shouldn't have been mad at me at all, for I was simply regurgitating your so-called evidence. Your "evidence" for your claim that the Noah Flood and Ark Story was borrowed from mythologies was to the effect that:

The RESEMBLANCE (of the Flood Story) between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras IS BECAUSE "the Persian mystic INVADED Italy DURING the first century AFTER CHRISTIANITY".

The "First Century after Christianity" corresponds to some time between 1 CE and 100 CE. In other words, it was the contact which happened sometime between these two dates (1 CE and 100 CE) that led to the Flood Story being common to these two faiths (i.e. Christianity and the Cult of Mithras).

To know which specifically influenced the other (on this specific story) during this contact period, it suffices that I mention to you that the Biblical account of the Noah's Flood story appears in the Bible for the first time in the text of the OT, i.e., centuries before Christianity. The first Christians thus came to accept this Bible story as truth as a matter of faith.

However, the Biblical account of the Flood story has the Priestly text of the Old Testament (aka the Sacerdotal Text) and the Yahvist text of the Old Testament as its source documents, and these source documents have been dated by experts in historical criticism to circa 6th century BC and circa 9th century BC respectively.

In summary, since your "evidence" states clearly that the commonality (of this Flood story) between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras was BECAUSE OF THE CONTACT which occurred sometimes in between 1 CE and 100 CE; and since it is also known that the Bible writers had documented this Bible story as early as circa 9th century BC (i.e. some nine-hundred years before the contact), it then becomes pretty obvious who the influencer was and who the 'influencee' was (as regards this story) between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras during the period of the contact.

Furthermore, regarding your question to me about a particular statement, which you've attributed to your author, along the following lines:

"Christianity and Mithra share similarities BECAUSE Persian army invaded Italy - the seat of Roman Catholicism and as such, the alegories/stories of Mithra DIFFUSED INTO CHRISTIANITY"

Please highlight to me where this specific statement (or something to the same effect) was mentioned in the screenshot (just as you highlighted the word "flood" in the earlier attachments) so we can then continue our discussion afterwards from there because I, personally, am yet to find it. Lol!

And regarding your last set of attachments, please be aware that I am not here to defend Christianity (or any religion for that matter), I am simply defending one thing and one thing only (at least for now) which is the FACT of the Noah's Flood Story. An argument I am willing to substantiate as soon as you indicate interest.

So, stop the straw-man fallacy of trying to portray me as defending the idea that there is no evolution and borrowing in Christianity at all. I have never made any such claim anywhere. Stick to discussing our respective contrary claims which relate simply to the Story of the Flood of Noah -- Fact or Fiction?

And so far, you've not been able to substantiate your claim that it never occurred with any shred of evidence, proof, or reason -- not one.

In conclusion, my position that you're simply indoctrinated into the idea (that the Noah Flood Story never occurred) by pseudo-intellectual social pressure still stands tall, at least so far.

OgboAto:



I expected a much better come back but well, with every post one can tell History wasn't what you went to school to be trained for; rather it is a new hobby you picked up.

Wht kind of statement is this?



How was he supposed to cite an ancient compiler? Are you serious? Wow.

Also, if History was what you were trained in school you would not keep harping upon 'evidence' which to you is a written source. A written source is regarded as a secondary data which is considered unequal to Primary data which in my case is oral source.

The Ikedu you're talking your neck out over has been used within the context of Ife history. Nothing else. And I, in my previous post stated I have asked around & no one here in Ife knows Ikedu - my sources are within my maternal, paternal lineages [both which hold important places in Ife] & across board in Ife. Rather, what is know here is 'Oro Ife' which is used by Monle, certain classes of Isoro & a few others. Secondary data are solely to help build knowledge or a gap in a study, it is not the ultimate. Sitting behind a screen and dishing out references is not a 'thing', get up for your butt & come down here to conduct an investigation.

I said the Ikedu is non-existent because it is unknown to Ife people whom the Ikedu supposedly talked about & also, all available research discussing Ikedu in whatever measure have not been able to provide a citation to the suppoaed 'ancient text'. Not Akinjogbin, Not Adepegba, Not Blier, Not Falola. Everyone seems to regurgitate each other, no one has provided the complete or atleast, detailed information on Ikedu. If Ikedu was indeed in existent, the desperate Alaafin or Olugbo will readily pay millions to have it.

Also, you are quite immature with your reference to insecurity. It is an infantile thing to assume I called you out on your US professor because of whatever imaginative thinking you concocted. Rather, I called you out because no Professor would take such risk to identify Ikedu that is said to speak primarily on Ife with Okun/Yagba. Wetin be Okun/Yagba with Ikedu that Ife which is its primary concern does not know. Do you see your logic now?

First, I like to apologize for the impropriety of the manner in which my reply to your first comment on my submission about Ikedu (as well as my replies that follow on the same issue) was put. I have gone back to check the comment you had originally made in that regard, and I have seen that it is actually fair and not rude. My assumption was that it was coming from an Ubinu troll, and I wasn't having it at that time.

However, the position I maintain is that to dismiss Ikedu as non-existent in writing, you require more than a simple and lax allusion to the general muteness on it among academics and natives as well as more than a mere allusion to the secrecy in which it has generally been shrouded; especially when there are prominent scholars who have acknowledged it independent of each other (e.g Akinjogbin as well as C. O. Adepegba as I have mentioned).

Moreover, it is not anything surprising if no one at all in Ife today (or very few people if anyone at all) knows about Ikedu. And my reference to Bukola Oyeniyi, a faculty member in the Department of History at Missouri State University, was NOT ONLY to buttress the fact that he had met and worked with people who know it; but also to highlight the specific area of the Nigeria region occupied by those people.

In other words, the fact the North-East Yoruba border is the specific Yoruba region whose present occupants he identifies with some knowledge of Ikedu is actually quite mutually exclusive to the text been known by the present occupants of Ile-Ife, Osun State.

In fact, in the course of his discussion, I recall that he explained why his observation (on whom the present day custodians of ancient Ikedu tradition are) is what it is.

He identifies WHY these modern custodians are those of our kins in the North-Eastern Yoruba borders -- some of whom he noted to have worked with before. He identifies the REASON with the thesis that Ile-Ife, Osun State is not the first Ife settlement of the early "Yoruba" people.

He noted that there is ample persuasive evidence for the thesis that the earliest Ife was closer to the Niger-Benue confluence than it is to Ile-Ife, Osun State, a position which A. F. C. Ryder et al. also maintain.

A. F. C. Ryder in "The Ife-Benin Relationship" cites a certain "early Yoruba historian, J. O. George" who had noted that:

" 'The present town of Ile-Ife should not be taken as the original Ile-Ife ... the old Ile-Ife was much farther in the interior.' "

Ryder continues in reference to T. J. Bowen's "Adventures and Missionary Labours in Several Countries in the Interior of Africa (Charleston, 1857), pp.265" that:

"Forty years earlier the missionary Bowen was told of an Ife standing upon 'the sea'."

* "The sea" here as shown in the footnote of Ryder's work is a misnomer by the ancient inland people for the "great" Niger and Benue rivers of the interior

In fact, the submission of Professor Wande Abimbola that there are references in odu ifa to seven different Ife, the present one being the last also appear to corroborate this thesis.

[see: W, Abimbola: "The Literature of the Ifa Cult", in Sources of Yoruba History, pp. 55]

More than that is the fact that there is an "Ife" in Idah whose head chief bears the title "Onu" which quickly calls to mind the "Ooni" title of Ile-Ife, Osun State.

In addition is also the fact that one of the most important deities in Idah is called "Olojo" which also quickly calls to mind another deity bearing the same name in Ile-Ife, Osun state; among other important commonalities.

[see: The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities by Babatunde Lawal in The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), pp. 210-211]

The foregoing goes to show that you were quite mistaken on the fact that you could not see the logic of how our people in the North-Eastern Yoruba borders could have had anything to do with the compiled historical tradition on Ife, called Ikedu.

Lastly, you could follow up with the Professor as I have suggested, to confirm from him whether or not he ever made the statements I attributed to him here.

I like to keep it short for now until I hear from you again.

Peace!

Cc:
Ollaxworld

TAO11:


First, I like to apologize for the impropriety of the manner in which my reply to your first comment on my submission about Ikedu (as well as my replies that follow on the same issue) was put. I have gone back to check the comment you had originally made in that regard, and I have seen that it is actually fair and not rude. My assumption was that it was coming from an Ubinu troll, and I wasn't having it at that time.

However, the position I maintain is that to dismiss Ikedu as non-existent in writing, you require more than a simple and lax allusion to the general muteness on it among academics and natives as well as more than a mere allusion to the secrecy in which it has generally been shrouded; especially when there are prominent scholars who have acknowledged it independent of each other (e.g Akinjogbin as well as C. O. Adepegba as I have mentioned).

Moreover, it is not anything surprising if no one at all in Ife today (or very few people if anyone at all) knows about Ikedu. And my reference to Bukola Oyeniyi, a faculty member in the Department of History at Missouri State University, was NOT ONLY to buttress the fact that he had met and worked with people who know it; but also to highlight the specific area of the Nigeria region occupied by those people.

In other words, the fact the North-East Yoruba border is the specific Yoruba region whose present occupants he identifies with some knowledge of Ikedu is actually quite mutually exclusive to the text been known by the present occupants of Ile-Ife, Osun State.

In fact, in the course of his discussion, I recall that he explained why his observation (on whom the present day custodians of ancient Ikedu tradition are) is what it is.

He identifies WHY these modern custodians are those of our kins in the North-Eastern Yoruba borders -- some of whom he noted to have worked with before. He identifies the REASON with the thesis that Ile-Ife, Osun State is not the first Ife settlement of the early "Yoruba" people.

He noted that there is ample persuasive evidence for the thesis that the earliest Ife was closer to the Niger-Benue confluence than it is to Ile-Ife, Osun State, a position which A. F. C. Ryder et al. also maintain.

A. F. C. Ryder in "The Ife-Benin Relationship" cites a certain "early Yoruba historian, J. O. George" who had noted that:

" 'The present town of Ile-Ife should not be taken as the original Ile-Ife ... the old Ile-Ife was much farther in the interior.' "

Ryder continues in reference to T. J. Bowen's "Adventures and Missionary Labours in Several Countries in the Interior of Africa (Charleston, 1857), pp.265" that:

"Forty years earlier the missionary Bowen was told of an Ife standing upon 'the sea'."

* "The sea" here as shown in the footnote of Ryder's work is a misnomer by the ancient inland people for the "great" Niger and Benue rivers of the interior

In fact, the submission of Professor Wande Abimbola that there are references in odu ifa to seven different Ife, the present one being the last also appear to corroborate this thesis.

[see: W, Abimbola: "The Literature of the Ifa Cult", in Sources of Yoruba History, pp. 55]

More than that is the fact that there is an "Ife" in Idah whose head chief bears the title "Onu" which quickly calls to mind the "Ooni" title of Ile-Ife, Osun State.

In addition is also the fact that one of the most important deities in Idah is called "Olojo" which also quickly calls to mind another deity bearing the same name in Ile-Ife, Osun state; among other important commonalities.

[see: The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities by Babatunde Lawal in The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), pp. 210-211]

The foregoing goes to show that you were quite mistaken on the fact that you could not see the logic of how our people in the North-Eastern Yoruba borders could have had anything to do with the compiled historical tradition on Ife, called Ikedu.

Lastly, you could follow up with the Professor as I have suggested, to confirm from him whether or not he ever made the statements I attributed to him here.

I like to keep it short for now until I hear from you again.

Peace!

Cc:
Ollaxworld

My G,

I apologize for coming out you in such an uncouth way. It does not only make my heart heavy to have acted that way, it is also embarrassing. I honestly just didn't like the 'tone' of your response to me, it was quite patronizing but that was that. My sibling, abeg nor vex. This Yoruba thing na both of us heritage & we both want it to be good. What is pertinent is to learn from each other & find a common ground.

You'd have to pardon me for saying this but I have most of the papers you are citing. I have a library of HSN journals from 1970 till date. This is apart from books from that period till date. I'm a PhD candidate in History [all my degrees are in History] & as such, I have come in & still very much in contact with awon Baba nla in the field who have added to me in everyway.

Having said that, I'd like to say that, I guessed your Okun/Yagba angle was based on the multiple Ife hypothesis but I'll ask if you've read Robin Horton's 'Ancient Ife: An Assessment'? Prof Obayemi was a topnotch scholar but his thesis was geared towards projecting his town, Ife Ijumu as the actual 'Ife' rather than the present Ile-Ife where archeological evidences are still being excavated. Horton's work examined the various theses on Ife & trashed each with evidences ranging from archeological to lexicostatiscal data - I could share it with you if you'd like. As rich as the work was, he also supported the East theory [Obayemi supported North East] in which he said Ife was located somewhat near the Igala but with river Niger or whatever running as a dividing line & it was from here migration took place. It was a hypothesis because excavations from Ife says that the present Ile-Ife has been occupied for at least 350BC.

As for Ifa, I'm an initiate of several awo including Ifa & I can authoritatively say that Ifa only mentions three Ife not seven & these Ife are: Ife Oodaye, where Oduduwa robbed the drunk Obatala & took up his role with 5 toes chicken & sand from snail shell; the Ife Ooyelagbo, the deluge period where everyone lived on Oke Ora under Oranfe's rule; & lastly, Ile-Ife under Obatala who was usurped by Oduduwa/Obameri group.

In conclusion, Baba Obayemi's argumrnt has been dismantled by new evidences both material & non-material. Likewise the pro-Bini scholars. And in essence, Ikedu could not have been hosted in Okun/Yagba axis because: 1. The Ikedu data is acclaimed to have focused on Ile-Ife; 2. Excerpts from Ikedu language shows it is closely related to Itsekiri/Ilaje not Okun/Yagba & 3. Obayemi's attempt at transposing Ile-Ife to Ife Ijummu has been dismantled.

Cheers.

TAO11:


You need to understand, as a matter of urgency, that ancient cults (e.g. the Cults of Mithras and Horus) and even religions (e.g. Christianity) do not have ALL their stories and episodes -- as we know them today -- determined and frozen in one specific point in time of their respective histories.

Rather, these stories and episodes evolve over the centuries with more other stories even being adopted from other outside stories, cultures, etc. as the centuries pass.

Thus, the fact that the Cults of Mithras and the Cult of Horus predate Christianity does NOT imply that NONE of their stories and episodes will ever be influenced by a later ideology (in this case Christianity).

In fact, you shouldn't have been mad at me at all, for I was simply regurgitating your so-called evidence. Your "evidence" for your claim that the Noah Flood and Ark Story was borrowed from mythologies was to the effect that:

The RESEMBLANCE (of the Flood Story) between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras IS BECAUSE "the Persian mystic INVADED Italy DURING the first century AFTER CHRISTIANITY".

The "First Century after Christianity" corresponds to some time between 1 CE and 100 CE. In other words, it was the contact which happened sometime between these two dates (1 CE and 100 CE) that led to the Flood Story being common to these two faiths (i.e. Christianity and the Cult of Mithras).

To know which specifically influenced the other (on this specific story) during this contact period, it suffices that I mention to you that the Biblical account of the Noah's Flood story appears in the Bible for the first time in the text of the OT, i.e., centuries before Christianity. The first Christians thus came to accept this Bible story as truth as a matter of faith.

However, the Biblical account of the Flood story has the Priestly text of the Old Testament (aka the Sacerdotal Text) and the Yahvist text of the Old Testament as its source documents, and these source documents have been dated by experts in historical criticism to circa 6th century BC and circa 9th century BC respectively.

In summary, since your "evidence" states clearly that the commonality (of this Flood story) between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras was BECAUSE OF THE CONTACT which occurred sometimes in between 1 CE and 100 CE; and since it is also known that the Bible writers had documented this Bible story as early as circa 9th century BC (i.e. some nine-hundred years before the contact), it then becomes pretty obvious who the influencer was and who the 'influencee' was (as regards this story) between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras during the period of the contact.

Furthermore, regarding your question to me about a particular statement, which you've attributed to your author, along the following lines:

"Christianity and Mithra share similarities BECAUSE Persian army invaded Italy - the seat of Roman Catholicism and as such, the alegories/stories of Mithra DIFFUSED INTO CHRISTIANITY"

Please highlight to me where this specific statement (or something to the same effect) was mentioned in the screenshot (just as you highlighted the word "flood" in the earlier attachments) so we can then continue our discussion afterwards from there because I, personally, am yet to find it. Lol!

And regarding your last set of attachments, please be aware that I am not here to defend Christianity (or any religion for that matter), I am simply defending one thing and one thing only (at least for now) which is the FACT of the Noah's Flood Story. An argument I am willing to substantiate as soon as you indicate interest.

So, stop the straw-man fallacy of trying to portray me as defending the idea that there is no evolution and borrowing in Christianity at all. I have never made any such claim anywhere. Stick to discussing our respective contrary claims which relate simply to the Story of the Flood of Noah -- Fact or Fiction?

And so far, you've not been able to substantiate your claim that it never occurred with any shred of evidence, proof, or reason -- not one.

In conclusion, [b]my position that you're simply indoctrinated into the idea (that the Noah Flood Story never occurred) by pseudo-intellectual social pressure still stands tall, at least so far.

Your conclusion is unfounded and your entire story is not tenable.

1. The century Jesus was born & the establishment of Christian era are still sources of debates amongst scholars.

2. The flood myth features in virtually every culture. In fact, the pyramid of Giza was said to have been erected because of a deluge. Israel had close contacts with Egypt my friend.

3. Persia, Israel, Arab are all located in the Mesopotamia/Sumerian region. Guess what? The early myths of Sumeria/Mesopotamia features the deluge gist.

My conclusion still stands, you are poorly read on this subject. No story.

OgboAto:


LOL.

You do not even know me or where I am from yet you speak of visiting the right places.

Who can answer that other than a learned person.

I know you well.

Theres no conflict of interest in my opinion.

ademijuwonlo:


In Nigeria, most of them still visit Babalowo and worship deities behind closed doors.

That isnt Idol Worshiping. That is being sensible and getting our priorities straight.

Idol worship is a derogative term derived out of Abrahimc religions.

The term "Idol" is an immure Eurocentric concept that has its origin in discrimination and nepotism against other concepts and philosophies of the world.


Througout the course of human history, African divinities are seen as the most kind, caring, fair and unbiased divinities anywhere in the world.

OgboAto:


My G,

I apologize for coming out you in such an uncouth way. It does not only make my heart heavy to have acted that way, it is also embarrassing. I honestly just didn't like the 'tone' of your response to me, it was quite patronizing but that was that. My sibling, abeg nor vex. This Yoruba thing na both of us heritage & we both want it to be good. What is pertinent is to learn from each other & find a common ground.

You'd have to pardon me for saying this but I have most of the papers you are citing. I have a library of HSN journals from 1970 till date. This is apart from books from that period till date. I'm a PhD candidate in History [all my degrees are in History] & as such, I have come in & still very much in contact with awon Baba nla in the field who have added to me in everyway.

Having said that, I'd like to say that, I guessed your Okun/Yagba angle was based on the multiple Ife hypothesis but I'll ask if you've read Robin Horton's 'Ancient Ife: An Assessment'? Prof Obayemi was a topnotch scholar but his thesis was geared towards projecting his town, Ife Ijumu as the actual 'Ife' rather than the present Ile-Ife where archeological evidences are still being excavated. Horton's work examined the various theses on Ife & trashed each with evidences ranging from archeological to lexicostatiscal data - I could share it with you if you'd like. As rich as the work was, he also supported the East theory [Obayemi supported North East] in which he said Ife was located somewhat near the Igala but with river Niger or whatever running as a dividing line & it was from here migration took place. It was a hypothesis because excavations from Ife says that the present Ile-Ife has been occupied for at least 350BC.

As for Ifa, I'm an initiate of several awo including Ifa & I can authoritatively say that Ifa only mentions three Ife not seven & these Ife are: Ife Oodaye, where Oduduwa robbed the drunk Obatala & took up his role with 5 toes chicken & sand from snail shell; the Ife Ooyelagbo, the deluge period where everyone lived on Oke Ora under Oranfe's rule; & lastly, Ile-Ife under Obatala who was usurped by Oduduwa/Obameri group.

In conclusion, Baba Obayemi's argumrnt has been dismantled by new evidences both material & non-material. Likewise the pro-Bini scholars. And in essence, Ikedu could not have been hosted in Okun/Yagba axis because: 1. The Ikedu data is acclaimed to have focused on Ile-Ife; 2. Excerpts from Ikedu language shows it is closely related to Itsekiri/Ilaje not Okun/Yagba & 3. Obayemi's attempt at transposing Ile-Ife to Ife Ijummu has been dismantled.

Cheers.

Wow!!! That is why I prefer to read White people's account of our history, unfortunately, because they have no conflict of interest.

I am jealous of you though; so well rounded and humble. I wish I knew more about Ifa.

Good luck boss. Your future is bright.

Robin Horton's paper is incredible; pretty damn long for an academic paper, 82 fucking pages, but I LOVE it. It is a critique really of important Yoruba oral history/tradition. Incredible analysis too. After Obayemi trashed Ife origin for the brass work, the part below made me happy, I won't lie. lol. Thanks for the reference.

In this paper, I shall not linger over Ife brass-work; for its style and
content have been lovingly described in a monograph and dozens of
papers.84 Rather, I shall just touch briefly on its origins and possible
commercial significance. Although we have yet to find direct evidence of
brass-casting operations at Ife, the perfect stylistic continuity between the
brass- work and the terra -cotta, the fact that no directly comparable works
of earlier date have been found elsewhere, and the fact that finds in the
city vastly outnumber comparable finds elsewhere, all make it virtually
certain that this corpus of work is the product of Ife craftsmen. As regards
the Ife-style works found outside the city, their small numbers suggest the
absence of large scale commerce in worked brass. Rather, it seems likely
that they were made to fulfil ritual and commercial purposes in the
outposts of the Ife empire

oduademonest:


Wow!!! That is why I prefer to read White people's account of our history, unfortunately, because they have no conflict of interest.

I am jealous of you though; so well rounded and humble. I wish I knew more about Ifa.

Good luck boss. Your future is bright.

African history is worth reasearching and learning by oneself, from African scholars and or African academics.

You are a genuinely good example to my point of view.


Eurocentrics cannot find their senses enough to be able to tell the truth about African history.

Anything that comes out of their (the Eurocentrics and Arabian fundamentalists) lips or written text regarding African history cannot be considered when making our determination. They lie about almost everything.

I have been enjoying this discussion and that it finally came to politeness because of our common interest.

There was an article about Oduduwa Before Christ or Yoruba Dynasties.

If Ifa only mention three Ife, and present Ife was established circa 350BC; can anyone give some approximate or estimated time Between Obatala and Oduduwa from Oke Ora to the present Ife.

Thanks.

OgboAto:


It was a hypothesis because excavations from Ife says that the present Ile-Ife has been occupied for at least 350BC.

As for Ifa, I'm an initiate of several awo including Ifa & I can authoritatively say that Ifa only mentions three Ife not seven & these Ife are: Ife Oodaye, where Oduduwa robbed the drunk Obatala & took up his role with 5 toes chicken & sand from snail shell; the Ife Ooyelagbo, the deluge period where everyone lived on Oke Ora under Oranfe's rule; & lastly, Ile-Ife under Obatala who was usurped by Oduduwa/Obameri group.

In conclusion, Baba Obayemi's argumrnt has been dismantled by new evidences both material & non-material. Likewise the pro-Bini scholars. And in essence, Ikedu could not have been hosted in Okun/Yagba axis because: 1. The Ikedu data is acclaimed to have focused on Ile-Ife; 2. Excerpts from Ikedu language shows it is closely related to Itsekiri/Ilaje not Okun/Yagba & 3. Obayemi's attempt at transposing Ile-Ife to Ife Ijummu has been dismantled.

Cheers.

Oduduwa is super important to us all as unifier and
military genius.

As a self-proclaimed royalist, that which i am, my admiration and genuine appreciation to the Emperor knows no bound.

Yet, it remains my opinion, and in a way that relates to the context, Obatala as the Arch Divinity is really unquestionable.

Unity allows for limitless progress.

googi:

There was an article about Oduduwa Before Christ or Yoruba Dynasties.

Yes, thats correct, Oduduwan Dynasties predates all nonAfrican ones in years that amount in their thousands upon thousands.

Kindly make use the notation B.C.E against B.C ; C.E instead A.D; as the former is the universally recognised standard and the latter isnt universally accepted.

...

Noted.

Thanks

Amujale:


Yes, thats correct, Oduduwan Dynasties predates all nonAfrican ones in years that amount in their thousands upon thousands.

Kindly make use the notation B.C.E against B.C ; C.E instead A.D; as the former is the universally recognised standard and the latter isnt universally accepted.