kola oloye:

I only asked for the proof.You can give me the link or otherwise for references.
Thanks in anticipation.

So you need proof? What have you done with the biblical evidence on the Deity of Christ?

OLAADEGBU:

So you need proof? What have you done with the biblical evidence on the Deity of Christ?

CONFESSION
You only got me more confused.I'm still trying to comprehend
why God had to die to have mercy on what He created.

kola oloye:

CONFESSION
You only got me more confused.I'm still trying to comprehend
why God had to die to have mercy on what He created.

^Sir, don't be confused. May God grant you the insight and understanding. Let's consider this points:

1. You and I agree that God is Perfect, Holy and Just.
2. You and I agree that God is Love.
3. We know that the Perfect Justice of God demands punishment for sin.
4. But God's Love requires Mercy.

How then can Perfect Justice be reconciled with Perfect Love? Or look at it this way, if the offence is forgiven, then no penalty has been paid for the offence and Justice is not satisfied. Unsatisfied justice is no justice, which means that if God forgave without the penalty of the offence being paid for; then His Justice is not Perfect, ergo God is not Perfect.

On the other hand; if punishment is administered for the offence even if for a moment (e.g. Purgatory [as Catholics believe] or a transient sojourn in Hell [as Muslims believe]) before forgiveness is given, then it means that God's Love and Mercy are incomplete, for Perfect Love and Mercy require that the penalty be taken away.

So a way must be found for the penalty to be administered while yet providing forgiveness. That way is for someone to bear our punishment, thus fulfilling the requirement of Justice, and provide a way for forgiveness to be given, thus satisfying Perfect Mercy and Love.

How can one requite an offence against the Holy, Righteous and Perfect One? Indeed can any man pay the penalty? None. . .For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; God is Holy, and so even our pitiful attempts at atoning for are sins do not meet the requirements of His Perfect Justice. . .But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away(Is 64:6).
So what to do? Who then can take the punishment on our behalf? Another man. . .perhaps. But such a man must not be under penalty of sin himself. Could such a one be found, a sinless man? The scriptures make clear that. . .[a]s it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10).
So what to do? God who is Love had to step in to provide the substitute Himself. Why was this necessary? Some of the issues are highlighted in the book of Job:
Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

No man can measure up to the standards of God's Justice:

Job 11:7-9. Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

So a mediator is needed, one to step in between God and man to effect a reconciliation between Justice and Love:

Job 16:21 O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

Moreover: None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. (Psalm 49:7-9)

The scriptures having clearly established that no man can provide a ransom either for himself or another man because all are under the same penalty or punishment goes on to tell us this.
Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. And again God Himself emphatically declares:
Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

And so we come to the Incarnation: Only God Himself can provide the substitute for the punishment as foreshadowed by Abraham's faith: "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."(Genesis 22: But for the substitute to be acceptable, it had to be a man, however a sinless Man. God took on human form thereby solving the problem as foretold in the OT and fulfilled in the NT:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 53:2-6 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John 1:1,14. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Php 2:7-8. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:14-17. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

^^As I shared the above with you, my heart has been filled with joy at the glorious gospel of the Lord Jesus.

Eph 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

May Our Father in heaven grant you insight as you consider these words.

aletheia:

^Sir, don't be confused. May God grant you the insight and understanding. Let's consider this points:

1. You and I agree that God is Perfect, Holy and Just.
2. You and I agree that God is Love.
3. We know that the Perfect Justice of God demands punishment for sin.
4. But God's Love requires Mercy.

How then can Perfect Justice be reconciled with Perfect Love? Or look at it this way, if the offence is forgiven, then no penalty has been paid for the offence and Justice is not satisfied. Unsatisfied justice is no justice, which means that if God forgave without the penalty of the offence being paid for; then His Justice is not Perfect, ergo God is not Perfect.

On the other hand; if punishment is administered for the offence even if for a moment (e.g. Purgatory [as Catholics believe] or a transient sojourn in Hell [as Muslims believe]) before forgiveness is given, then it means that God's Love and Mercy are incomplete, for Perfect Love and Mercy require that the penalty be taken away.

So a way must be found for the penalty to be administered while yet providing forgiveness. That way is for someone to bear our punishment, thus fulfilling the requirement of Justice, and provide a way for forgiveness to be given, thus satisfying Perfect Mercy and Love.

How can one requite an offence against the Holy, Righteous and Perfect One? Indeed can any man pay the penalty? None. . .For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; God is Holy, and so even our pitiful attempts at atoning for are sins do not meet the requirements of His Perfect Justice. . .But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away(Is 64:6).
So what to do? Who then can take the punishment on our behalf? Another man. . .perhaps. But such a man must not be under penalty of sin himself. Could such a one be found, a sinless man? The scriptures make clear that. . .[a]s it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10).
So what to do? God who is Love had to step in to provide the substitute Himself. Why was this necessary? Some of the issues are highlighted in the book of Job:
Job 9:2  I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Job 9:20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

No man can measure up to the standards of God's Justice:

Job 11:7-9.  Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

So a mediator is needed, one to step in between God and man to effect a reconciliation between Justice and Love:

Job 16:21  O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

Moreover: None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. (Psalm 49:7-9)

The scriptures having clearly established that no man can provide a ransom either for himself or another man because all are under the same penalty or punishment goes on to tell us this.
Psalm 49:15  But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. And again God Himself emphatically declares:
Hosea 13:14  I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

And so we come to the Incarnation: Only God Himself can provide the substitute for the punishment as foreshadowed by Abraham's faith: "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."(Genesis 22: But for the substitute to be acceptable, it had to be a man, however a sinless Man. God took on human form thereby solving the problem as foretold in the OT and fulfilled in the NT:
Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 53:2-6  For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

John 1:1,14.  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Php 2:7-8.  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb 2:14-17.  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

^^As I shared the above with you, my heart has been filled with joy at the glorious gospel of the Lord Jesus.

May Our Father in heaven grant you insight as you consider these words.

just wondering, why do you guys always have to explain/speak for this all-powerful entity; like those who helped him write his book for him. is god deaf mute that he cannot speak for himself or is god illiterate that he cannot write, or the obvious, he just doesn't exist

@Aletheia: [Quote]4. But God's Love requires Mercy.[/QUote]You can have Mercy on a person you dont Love. Hulk Hogan can have mercy on a 25 year old 130 pound man who slapped his face. He will not love the man or his act, but have mercy on him not have given him a beating that will send him into a sudden shock, that he may be silent for a long time (fainted, went into a coma), that people may think that he died, and they have to drag him to a place of burial (I think it shouls ring a bell).


God Almighty does show Love or Mercy to all, on this earth. He will on the day of Judgment show Love by showering Mercy on those who worshiped Him in truth on earth, those who did not deny His existence, or say there is a partner with Him in Trinity or any other way, or make Him a tribal God.

Your problem is that you dont know that God is capable of Independently Loving and showing Mercy on Man, without you installing a patron with Him or between you and Him.

You just have to bring Jesus into the mix, always.

Why dont you close your eyes and imagine the Awesomeness of God, Alone without a partner?

If you think having a baby without a father is therefore making the baby son of God, then imagine this; a man who produced a woman external from his own body? Is the woman daughter of God, the man who produced her son of God, or God? These two people, the male who produced female were nothing but creations themselves.

They were created in a creation way different from what you expect. God created these two, in very specifically unique was, as adult, each process greater and more complex that how Jesus was created.

The same God allowed the two man and woman to be husband and wife, as mates they produced children in a different way than they themselves were made. In time we get used to this way because majority of us are created that way.

You now doubt that the same Awesome God is incapable of creating a man from just the unfertilized egg of a woman, unless He must be his Father, and the baby has to be Him in flesh! This is how you think.


You cheapen God. man. You cheapen God.

@Mudley313:
Can I ask you a question? Why do you think it's wrong if God speaks or communicates with us through other humans? And how is communicating with us through humans proof of the non-existence of God. There is a lot out there that proves that the Bible is indeed the Word of God. . .why don't you at least lay your suppositions aside and consider the evidence with an open mind, at least even if it is for the reason's of Pascal's wager.

Please note that I am not adducing Pascal's bet as evidence for the existence of God.

Mudley313:

just wondering, why do you guys always have to explain/speak for this all-powerful entity; like those who helped him write his book for him. is god deaf mute that he cannot speak for himself or is god illiterate that he cannot write, or the obvious, he just doesn't exist

^^God does not need me to explain/speak for Him; I beleive that He has spoken to Man in the Bible and through His Son: Jesus Christ.

aletheia:

@Mudley313:
Can I ask you a question? Why do you think it's wrong if God speaks or communicates with us through other humans? And how is communicating with us through humans proof of the non-existence of God.

i dont think there's anything wrong with that or if it prooves his non-existence or not, i just know for it to be the only form of communication an all-powerful entity can afford is kinda weird especially when the gods of everyone else used the same means (communicated through people) cos they just couldn't do it on their own for whatever reason or maybe cos they just don't exist. ever since recorded history man has always invented some form of deity to worship, right from the days of zeus to oduduwa.

MEN CREATED/INVENTED GODS, THAT'S WHY THE ONLY EVIDENCE OF THEIR GOD'S EXISTENCE IS IN THE PAGES OF BOOKS THESE MEN WROTE THEMSELVES

There is a lot out there that proves that the Bible is indeed the Word of God. . .

the only proof that the bible is the word of some god is in the bible itself, just like almost every other religious beliefs. just like your god, they only exist in the pages of religious texts and in the minds of their deluded followers

^^God does not need me to explain/speak for Him;

but that's exactly what you're doing for him right now; that's what all the churches collecting tithes in order to be able to help him spread his word are doing for him now; that's what the writers of the bible did for him too. how come, i, a mere mortal, can speak for myself and write, but an all-powerful god cannot. that's cause he/she/it does not exist. sorry you're too deluded to see it any other way

[center][img]http://4.bp..com/_Yv9ltc54vz8/Sl0GkhJW2bI/AAAAAAAAAD4/rVR5or3Qzq0/s400/Word-of-God.jpg[/img][/center]

Mudley313:

i dont think there's anything wrong with that or if it prooves his non-existence or not, i just know for it to be the only form of communication an all-powerful entity can afford is kinda weird especially when the gods of everyone else used the same means (communicated through people) cos they just couldn't do it on their own for whatever reason or maybe cos they just don't exist. ever since recorded history man has always invented some form of deity to worship, right from the days of zeus to oduduwa.

In a way, you are arguing in circles. You concede that there's nothing wrong if God choses to communicate through humans. . .then turn round to argue that outside of the pages of the Bible there is no evidence of God. I want to challenge you to take a systematic approach to the problem rather than relying on cobbled together arguments. Thank God that the resources are available for you to undertake the task. Consider that in a court of law, the decision is made on the balance of evidence. The bible makes certain claims, some of them historical. You could easily verify that these historical claims are true.
Consider that for example:
# The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
# The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
# Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
# It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
# Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.

Mudley313:

the only proof that the bible is the word of some god is in the bible itself, just like almost every other religious beliefs. just like your god, they only exist in the pages of religious texts and in the minds of their deluded followers

^^
You have an abrasive style which is probably what triggers spats with others. I actually don't mind being called deluded by you. My prayer is that one day, hopefully not too far off, you find the truth as I have done: Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Sweetnecta:

You cheapen God. man. You cheapen God.

No sir, it is you who cheapens God. If truly you believe that nothing is impossible for God, then you should realize that it is not impossible for God to incarnate in the flesh as a man.

@Aletheia-I studied your posts,and it appears that you are a typical christian.If so,then I need your help concerning a topic which I posted which reads ''Can God make a mistake?''I'm confused about it.If I don't see your reply,then I must be wrong about you.May the grace of God be with you and all my brothers in the religious forum.

^^I 'm not sure I understand what you mean by typical Christian.

^P.S. You will need to post a link to your topic. I can't find it.

@ alethia. so just a few vague claims of historical accuracy now automatically makes the bible the word of god? so, can any other texts or books that is historically accurate be attributed to your imaginary god too?

Putting aside all the atrocious morality inherent in the bible, i hope you do realize that the bible was copied, by hand, over and over and over again to get at what we have today. We don't have an original, or a copy of the original, or a copy of a copy of a copy of the original. If you ever played the childrens game 'Telephone', where you start with one sentence and whisper in a circle through 15 or 20 kids and then look at the first and last sentence, they are entirely different. We have the last little kids version of the Bible.

And by the way they're so many historical and scientific inaccuracies in that your bible written by a bunch of ancient megalomaniacs but it'll be foolhardy to try and point them out to one as deluded as yourself. Every rational thinking person knows rabbits don't chew their cud, bats aren't birds, insects have six legs, not four, Pi is NOT 3.0, the stars are not fixed in the sky to a firmament and the earth does not have four corners. To list all of the inaccuracies in the Bible would take a long time. But, for a start, here are at least four hundred: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

Mudley313:

@ alethia. so just a few vague claims of historical accuracy now automatically makes the bible the word of god? so, can any other texts or books that is historically accurate be attributed to your imaginary god too?

I fail to see how what I posted above could be considered vague. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me? BTW I just listed a few; there are numerous other examples.

Mudley313:

Putting aside all the atrocious morality inherent in the bible, i hope you do realize that the bible was copied, by hand, over and over and over again to get at what we have today. We don't have an original, or a copy of the original, or a copy of a copy of a copy of the original. If you ever played the childrens game 'Telephone', where you start with one sentence and whisper in a circle through 15 or 20 kids and then look at the first and last sentence, they are entirely different. We have the last little kids version of the Bible.

What you wrote above would seem to suggest that you have scarcely examined the evidence for yourself, but would rather rely on second-hand hearsay. No one denies that the bible was written by hand prior to the advent of the printing press. But part of the miracle of its preservation is that unlike in the normal course of things like the game of Chinese Whispers that you referred to above, it is a faithful and accurate transmission of the original text. How so?
For example the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1947 are dated from the third century B.C. to the first century A.D. These manuscripts predate by 1000 years the previous oldest manuscripts. They represent every Old Testament book except Esther (as well as non-biblical writings). There is word for word identity in more than 95% of the cases, and the 5% variation consists mostly of slips of the pen and spelling. Prior to their discovery, the thousands of earliest extant manuscripts dated from 100 to 300 years after the originals. Virtually all of these manuscripts are identical. We find that despite the gap in time between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the other later manuscripts: there is virtually no difference between them: proving that there was no corruption of the text in the intervening years.
Now contrast this with earliest extant copies of other ancient works:
Caesar—10 copies—1000 year gap

Tacitus—20 copies—1000 year gap

Plato—7 copies—1200 year gap

And yet despite the paucity of material and distance in time removed from the original copies, there is little doubt about the authenticity of Caesar, Tacitus and Plato. There are over 5000 ancient manuscripts from the period of the late first century (within the lifetime of eyewitnesses of the events of Jesus' life) and onwards, and they all agree. So where is the corruption of the text that you allege?

Mudley313:

And by the way they're so many historical and scientific inaccuracies in that your bible written by a bunch of ancient megalomaniacs but it'll be foolhardy to try and point them out to one as deluded as yourself. Every rational thinking person knows rabbits don't chew their cud, bats aren't birds, insects have six legs, not four, Pi is NOT 3.0, the stars are not fixed in the sky to a firmament and the earth does not have four corners. To list all of the inaccuracies in the Bible would take a long time. But, for a start, here are at least four hundred: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

Again with insults --- you refer to me as "one as deluded as yourself". Have I insulted you in any way? You pride yourself on being rational. Isn't it somewhat irrational and intolerant of you, if you cant have a conversation without hurling out insults? In what way then are you different from the religionists that you so dislike?
Is the value of pi stated in the Bible? I believe that is just a straw man argument set up by those who have a priori rejected the Bible. Can you show me where the value of pi is stated in the Bible? Alright then what is the exact value of something as irrational as pi?

"It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."

Hahaha Yeh God inspired men to write the bible which is in its original form hebrew, now english which KING JAMES OF ENGLAND TOOK POETS TO re write and translate.in the process there many pages where adulterated  to suit their evila plan to conquer the world , with slavery and taken away that is why the BIBLE is just an ordinary piece of literature and best seller AND FULL OF CONFUSING WORD, an contradictions,

THE KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE

The King james translation of the bible is considered the greatest piece of literature in English.its language supposedly represent the ultimate in using the King English.Well Shakespeare  language and the Bibles Language are on and the same.They say that from 1604 to 1611 King james got poets to translate,to write the Bible Well if Shakespeare existed  he was then the top poet around,But Shakespeare is no where reported connected with the Bible.If he existed,why didnt King james use him? And if he did use him,why is it one of the world best kept secrets?
King James was Brilliant and the greatest king ho ever sat on the British throne.Who else among royalty,in his time,would have had the giant talent to write Shakespeare works? It was he who poetically FIXED the BIBLE -which in itself and it present King James version has enslaved the world.

from AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X



https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-517287.0.html#msg6817656

Muddled is being domesticated and made to study? It'll be faster if he was exorcized, for they are many. Just my weekend opinion sha.

@Aletheia: « #104 on: Yesterday at 06:39:21 AM »
[Quote]Quote from: Sweetnecta on October 28, 2010, 05:00 PM
You cheapen God. man. You cheapen God.

No sir, it is you who cheapens God. If truly you believe that nothing is impossible for God, then you should realize that it is not impossible for God to incarnate in the flesh as a man.[/Quote]I'm sure then that you believe that God the father, as God the ghost got Mary pregnant by coming upon her and overshadowed her, to produce God the son, the incarnate? I am using your not cheapening God idea, as a man can read it. This is sexual intercourse.

If God didn't have sex with Mary, then God is not Incarnated! You can't have it your way. It s the right way or you are the cheapening man.


Aletheia, it is Joonu. Not Johaanu. Or your yoruba is the same Wishy washy questionable like Obasanjo's who says Oranyan (compulsory), instead of Oranmiyan, the ancient yoruba man?

@Aletheia: « #109 on: Yesterday at 12:56:46 AM »
[Quote]Quote from: Mudley313 on October 29, 2010, 11:10 PM
@ alethia. so just a few vague claims of historical accuracy now automatically makes the bible the word of god? so, can any other texts or books that is historically accurate be attributed to your imaginary god too?

I fail to see how what I posted above could be considered vague. Perhaps you would care to enlighten me? BTW I just listed a few; there are numerous other examples.

Quote from: Mudley313 on October 29, 2010, 11:10 PM
Putting aside all the atrocious morality inherent in the bible, i hope you do realize that the bible was copied, by hand, over and over and over again to get at what we have today. We don't have an original, or a copy of the original, or a copy of a copy of a copy of the original. If you ever played the childrens game 'Telephone', where you start with one sentence and whisper in a circle through 15 or 20 kids and then look at the first and last sentence, they are entirely different. We have the last little kids version of the Bible.

What you wrote above would seem to suggest that you have scarcely examined the evidence for yourself, but would rather rely on second-hand hearsay. No one denies that the bible was written by hand prior to the advent of the printing press. But part of the miracle of its preservation is that unlike in the normal course of things like the game of Chinese Whispers that you referred to above, it is a faithful and accurate transmission of the original text. How so?
For example the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1947 are dated from the third century B.C. to the first century A.D. These manuscripts predate by 1000 years the previous oldest manuscripts. They represent every Old Testament book except Esther (as well as non-biblical writings). There is word for word identity in more than 95% of the cases, and the 5% variation consists mostly of slips of the pen and spelling. Prior to their discovery, the thousands of earliest extant manuscripts dated from 100 to 300 years after the originals. Virtually all of these manuscripts are identical. We find that despite the gap in time between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the other later manuscripts: there is virtually no difference between them: proving that there was no corruption of the text in the intervening years.[/Quote]I am assuming that you have a first hand examination of the dead sea scrolls, yourself, otherwise you will fall into the same category, as in the bold, above, of your accusation?



[Quote]Now contrast this with earliest extant copies of other ancient work
Caesar—10 copies—1000 year gap

Tacitus—20 copies—1000 year gap

Plato—7 copies—1200 year gap

And yet despite the paucity of material and distance in time removed from the original copies, there is little doubt about the authenticity of Caesar, Tacitus and Plato. There are over 5000 ancient manuscripts from the period of the late first century (within the lifetime of eyewitnesses of the events of Jesus' life) and onwards, and they all agree. So where is the corruption of the text that you allege?[/Quote]I guess you did not consider the fact that when they began to pen the "Bible" as in the form of the "Dead sea scrolls", it was already a corruption? Consistency does not mean accuracy or truthfulness. It simply means that the lies continues in an unbroken chain. My proof; Ishmael was slated to be as a wildass. Unless, it means something else, which you must tell us here, and right away, with evidence, how is this so? What wildass like act did "Ishmael" can be attached to? Well, I will wait for your answer, so that I know if you finally discover the lies in the consistency of the manuscripts.



[Quote]Quote from: Mudley313 on October 29, 2010, 11:10 PM
And by the way they're so many historical and scientific inaccuracies in that your bible written by a bunch of ancient megalomaniacs but it'll be foolhardy to try and point them out to one as deluded as yourself. Every rational thinking person knows rabbits don't chew their cud, bats aren't birds, insects have six legs, not four, Pi is NOT 3.0, the stars are not fixed in the sky to a firmament and the earth does not have four corners. To list all of the inaccuracies in the Bible would take a long time. But, for a start, here are at least four hundred: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
Again with insults --- you refer to me as "one as deluded as yourself". Have I insulted you in any way? You pride yourself on being rational. Isn't it somewhat irrational and intolerant of you, if you cant have a conversation without hurling out insults? In what way then are you different from the religionists that you so dislike?
Is the value of pi stated in the Bible? I believe that is just a straw man argument set up by those who have a priori rejected the Bible. Can you show me where the value of pi is stated in the Bible? Alright then what is the exact value of something as irrational as pi?

"It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."[/QUote]Can you tell us the route of the "Children of Israel" in the exodus of 40 years between Egypt and Jerusalem's Canaan, which is in reality next door, just after Gaza of this very minute? Just because the world has not gotten to it yet does not mean it is not available.

@Sweetnecta a.k.a nopuqeater (your handles betray an obsession with matters culinary):
As always frantically clutching at straws:

Sweetnecta:

@Aletheia: « #109 on: Yesterday at 12:56:46 AM »I am assuming that you have a first hand examination of the dead sea scrolls, yourself, otherwise you will fall into the same category, as in the bold, above, of your accusation?

You can download jpegs of the scrolls for your study. Perhaps that will finally help you become "pastor" Sweetnecta (nopuqeater)

Sweetnecta:

I guess you did not consider the fact that when they began to pen the "Bible" as in the form of the "Dead sea scrolls", it was already a corruption? Consistency does not mean accuracy or truthfulness. It simply means that the lies continues in an unbroken chain. My proof; Ishmael was slated to be as a wildass. Unless, it means something else, which you must tell us here, and right away, with evidence, how is this so? What wildass like act did "Ishmael" can be attached to? Well, I will wait for your answer, so that I know if you finally discover the lies in the consistency of the manuscripts.

^^Such a weak claim, based on ignorance: there is a gap of over 1000 years between the DS scrolls and the next earliest Masoretic texts. In the intervening 1000 years, corruption would have been event, but we see virtually identical copies: something we can't say about your qur'an which even at compilation had several competing versions.
"Ishmael was slated to be as a wildass". No doubt you quote a variant translation of "Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Isn't that fulfilled in the spiritual characteristics of Islam, an attribute that you display again and again. . .a religion of wild men who ever violent, killing others at the drop of a hat (witness Jos etc) and at war against the rest of the world, a religion that divides the world into two camps: Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb?

Sweetnecta:

Can you tell us the route of the "Children of Israel" in the exodus of 40 years between Egypt and Jerusalem's Canaan, which is in reality next door, just after Gaza of this very minute? Just because the world has not gotten to it yet does not mean it is not available.

^^Since you are already a "pastor" and well-acquainted with Bible---you can read up the way-stations in the wanderings of the children of Israel in the book in the Bible called by its Hebrew name Bamidbar.

Anyone who thinks God wrote the bible should go for a psychiatric review at Yaba Pscychiatric Hospital.
I mean, did God write it in heaven and then throw the book down from heaven to earth.
The Europeans compiled that book for their supremacy and to control your minds.
Nothings pains me more than when I see an African with an open bible on the train or bus, all coloured up and underlined, and they have been trained that the book contains power to change their situation.
No wonder we as Africans are still in the mess we are in. So many churches, in every corner on every street. Yet, poverty is rife, even though the contininet has all the resources to be the number 1 economic power in the world. While the europenas who gave you the bible are setting up their companies and tapping all your wealth, you are in churches singing : 'Praise da Lord, O sing O, sing O, praise da Lord'

First of all, we can all have an intelligent discussion without resorting to insulting each others beliefs.


One incontrovertible fact is that the Bible is best selling book in the history of the world and it contains the best stories ever told.

The authors of the Bible (as well as the Torah and the Hadith) were almost exclusively Jews or Israelites. The bible is a historical guide book for the benefit of the Israelites. Simple.

It is no conincidence that most of the heroes of the Bible are Israelites - Noah, Moses, David, Solomon, Elijah, Jesus etc. Conversely, Most of the Villians of the Bibles were non-Jews/Israelites - Jezebel, Nebuchadnezzar, Herod, Pilate, Pharaoh etc

We should see the bible for what it really is. Its a great guide book that can help guide adherents and believers to lead a more fulfilling life.

I wont go as far as saying the bible is entirely a work of fiction because its not. Some of the stories actually happened, although they are grossly ex agerated. Also the stories give a one sided account of history. The interaction of the Israelites and the Egyptian is written exclusively from the point of view of the Israelites and as we know there are always 2 sides to a story

first tin is dat not jst anione can come out nd tell us he was inspired by GOD we have to luk at different tins bfore believing.bt if u can answer dis question then i can answer urs.how does words from the bible bcome powerful if there isnt sometin supernatural behind it if nt by d inspiration by god

Rhino3dm:
I was told it was inspired by god? ? But my problem is the names of people that were inspired, date and locations of the writters i cant still figure out.

1. Genesis was written by Moses in the wilderness (date unknown)

2. Exodus was written by Moses in the wilderness.

3. Leviticus was written by Moses in the wilderness.

4. Numbers was written by Moses in the wilderness.

5. Deuteronomy was partly written by Moses and completed by Joshua.

6. Joshua was partly written by Joshua and partly written by an unknown author.

7. Judges was written probably by Samuel.

6. Ruth was written by Samuel.

7. 1st Samuel was partly written by Samuel and completed by Gad and Jeremiah.

8. 2nd Samuel was written by Jeremiah and Gad.

9. 1st and 2nd Kings were by Jeremiah.

10. 1st and 2nd Chronicles by Ezra.

11. Ezra by Ezra himself.

12. Nehemiah was written by Nehemiah himself.

13. Esther was written by Mordecai, her uncle.

14. Job was written by Moses while keeping the sheep of his father-in-law. It was written to encourage the Israelites suffering in Egypt.....



The list is long...... I will refer you to my post concerning the Bible.