davidnazee:


So you like evidence yet you cannot provide a single evidence to support your claim that small ife was great Kingdom between 12 and 19 centuries.

(1) Your attachment is from page 75 of Robin Horton's "Ancient Ife: A Reassesment".

(2) You highlighted where Robin Horton writes:

"... he suggests, we may have to look elsewhere for the origins of the Eweka dynastic founder and for the capital of the Ogane."

(3) The "he" above shows that this suggestion to look elsewhere is NOT Robin Horton's suggestion.

(4) A detailed reading of the pages (and some prior acquaintance with the Ogane issue) shows that Robin Horton was talking about the suggestion from none other than A.F.C. Ryder.

(5) However, Robin Horton (from whom you got the attachment) has the following to say about this suggestion from A.F.C. Ryder:

"Curiously, Ryder, in pursuing his argument does so in full awareness of a fact which one might have expected to moderate his enthusiasm for it. Here, I refer to the ritual in which the Oba of Benin addresses prayers to his forefathers at Ife through an eastward facing window at dawn, thus making an identification ("albeit a symbolic one" ) between Ife and the East.* Far from sounding a note of caution in the face of this fact, he regards it as yet further evidence that the original home of Eweka dynasty was not Ife but some more easterly or north-easterly center. ... In fact, as further information now makes plain, Ryder's interpretation of this ritual is misguided. ... Had Ryder known of this background to the Oba's dawn prayers, he would surely have drawn somewhat different conlusions."

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.85-86.

On page 90, Robin Horton concludes on the suggestion from A.F.C. Ryder, et al. as follows:

"Summing up, I would say that Obayemi's critique, like the efforts of Ryder and Williams before him, has been rendered out of date by fresh information."

Lol ... unknown to you, Robin Horton (from whom you got your attachment) belongs to the vast scholarly consensus which identifies the Ogane [i.e. Oba of Benin's 'Oga'] as none other than the Ooni of Ife. He trashed Ryder's suggestion beyond recognition.

(6) Regarding your moronic claim that Ife wasn't prominent, or was non-existent, from the 12th century:

I am not sure why you decided to take the risk of uttering this inane statement when, in fact, the source of your own attachment refutes you in black and white.

Robin Horton summarizes as follows from page 140 of the same work from where you got your attachment:

"Phase 2. ("900A.D. - 1450A.D." )
Ife emerged as a power in the region after the main wave of Yoruba expansion and cultural differentiation."

May God have mercy on your miserable soul!

cc: macof

davidnazee:


Delusion is when you say a small powerless village ruled over a mighty and powerful Kingdom.
I guess u don’t know the meaning of delusion even tho you like to play with words.

I’m not crying oo. I have never been conquered or subjugated so why I go cry?
you should be the one crying and hurt, we know your history.

Chairman of knowing the history of others
Small man fighting online war for his small people

davidnazee:


I’m not an internet warrior so I don’t know how to conquer people online but real fact is: my ancestors conquered and ruled your ancestors for hundreds of years.. even your most powerful Kingdom Oyo recoiled sharply before a powerful Benin Kingdom.

Check out my mention to you before this one. Don't pretend not to see it!

Moreover, you went mute when I had written the following earlier:

"Ordinary Ibadan raided territories of your Kingdom for slaves and sacked many territories within your Kingdom."

Furthermore, your ancestors were served to Yoruba gods (and your people continues till date to be served to Yoruba gods) right there in your Benin Kingdom.

Please what book is this??

TAO11:

RamessesIV:
Please what book is this??

Spam bot won't allow me type in the reference without getting banned. So, see it attached below.

Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

TAO11:


Spam bot won't allow me type in the reference without getting banned. So, see it attached below.

RamessesIV:
Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

Good question! I will take my time before replying because I've got what I think is a very good reply which I can't afford to give hastily and superficially just for the sake of replying.

I need to pool and verify the relevant quotes and references in the midst of other engagements.

Please bear with me. Thanks!

RamessesIV:
Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

You asked a very good question. I can tell you now that they will not be able to provide an answer that referenced the period in question because there is simply no written records of that period. What you will get as answer is going to be a biased opinion or narrative.

There is no written record of an eyewitness account of Ife society before 1900.

What you will get is a recently written fabrications presented as scholarly work. A modern biased interpretations of what happened centuries ago by those who were not eyewitness.

Apart from the Bronze arts being dug up in Ife, there is simply no record of artistic history that says they were made in Ife or Ife even had the tradition of Bronze casting. Benin could have tailor made those Bronzes for whoever took them there.

Don't be surprised if they come back with a Benin source or reference Benin for their answer.

Another example that they parrot is Ogane being Ife.

In about 1475 a Portuguese that visited Benin recorded that he was told by a Benin resident and informat that there was another great kingdom that had relationship with Benin.

1. This kingdom was to the east of Benin

2. This Ogane kingdom was a distance of 250 leagues or 900 miles

3. The travelling time from Benin to this kingdom of Ogane was 20 moon or 20 months or 1 year 8 months.

Despite the fact that none of the above support Ife as being the location, they still point to some fictitious recent scholars that claim this kingdom is Ife.

For the benefits of doubt.

1. Ife is west of Benin not east as described by the Portuguese who recorded the conversion.

2. Ife is 171 miles from Benin, not 900 miles as recorded by the Portuguese.

3. There was no way the journey from Benin to Ife would have taken 20 months because another European recorded in 1603 that Benin was despatching 2 messagers every day from Benin military camp in Lagos to Benin City. Lagos to Benin is a distance of 201 miles, more than the distance from Benin to Ife.

So, you have to be very wary and mindful when you are given the so called scholarly works that were not written during the period in time as answer to your question.

Anybody can write some nonsense today and tell you that his nonsense opinion is the answer to what happened in 1535AD.

All they often do to disguise their lies and confused the less informed is simply tag their lies and personal opinions as archeological and anthropological findings.

If any Benin person tells you that they colonised Lagos as far back as 1603, demand for a written
independent eyewitness evidence or account that was written in 1603, don't accept or settle for anything written later than 1603. Don't accept historical opinions of some historians written in 1975.

Likewise, if any Yoruba person makes a historical claim, demand a written eyewitness accounts of the time and period in question, don't accept what may be an opinion of someone which is written centuries after the event.

How can someone accurately write about the events of 1600s, 1700s in 1984 and call it the absolute truth.

Anybody can write anything to support their history and put others down, which is why it's very important to demand for eyewitness accounts not opinions of those that were not there masquerading as scholars.

No problem I await your reply.

TAO11:


Good question! I will take my time before replying because I've got what I think is a very good reply which I can't afford to give hastily and superficially just for the sake of replying.

I need to pool and verify the relevant quotes and references in the midst of other engagements.

Please bear with me. Thanks!

Thanks I greatly appreciate your contribution,I did my own personal research but couldn't come to a conclusion that's why I asked it on here

samuk:


You asked a very good question. I can tell you now that they will not be able to provide an answer that referenced the period in question because there is simply no written records of that period. What you will get as answer is going to be a biased opinion or narrative.

There is no written record of an eyewitness account of Ife society before 1900.

What you will get is a recently written fabrications presented as scholarly work. A modern biased interpretations of what happened centuries ago by those who were not eyewitness.

Apart from the Bronze arts being dug up in Ife, there is simply no recorded of artistic history that says they were made in Ife or Ife even had the tradition of Bronze casting. Benin could have tailor made those Bronzes for whoever took them there.

Don't be surprised if they come back with a Benin source or reference Benin for their answer.

Another example that they parrot is Ogane being Ife.

In about 1475 a Portuguese that visited Benin recorded that he was told by a Benin resident and informat that there was another great kingdom that had relationship with Benin.

1. This kingdom was to the east of Benin

2. This Ogane kingdom was a distance of 250 leagues or 900 miles

3. The travelling time from Benin to this kingdom of Ogane was 20 moon or 20 months or 1 year 8 months.

Despite the fact that none of the above support Ife as being the location, they still point to some fictitious recent scholars that claim this kingdom is Ife.

For the benefits of doubt.

1. Ife is west of Benin not east as described by the Portuguese who recorded the conversion.

2. Ife is 171 miles from Benin, not 900 miles as recorded by the Portuguese.

3. There was no way the journey from Benin to Ife would have taken 20 months because another European recorded in 1603 that Benin was despatching 2 messagers every day from Benin military camp in Lagos to Benin City. Lagos to Benin is a distance of 201 miles, more than the distance from Benin to Ife.

So, you have to be very wary and mindful when you are given the so called scholarly works that were not written during the period in time as answer to your question.

Anybody can write some nonsense today and tell you that his nonsense opinion is the answer to what happened in 1535AD.

All they often do to disguise their lies and confused the less informed is simply tag their lies and personal opinions as archeological and anthropological findings.

If any Benin person tells you that they colonised Lagos as far back as 1603, demand for a written
independent eyewitness evidence or account that was written in 1603, don't accept or settle for anything written later than 1603. Don't accept historical opinions of some historians written in 1975.

Likewise, if any Yoruba person makes an historical claim, demand a written eyewitness accounts of the time and period in question, don't accept what may be an opinion of someone which is written centuries after the event.

How can someone accurately write about the events of 1600s, 1700s in 1984 and call it the absolute truth.

RamessesIV:
Thanks I greatly appreciate your contribution,I did my own personal research but couldn't come to a conclusion that's why I asked it on here

I just wanted to point out that history could be very subjective and biased without concrete eyewitness collaborative evidence from the times and periods in discussion.

Imagine if a Yoruba historian was to write about the Nigeria civil war today, the historian will do everything possible to make the Yoruba and Awolowo look good.

Same way an Igbo historian will absorb the Igbo of any blame and make Ojukwu look good.

So, anyone reading both versions should ask for independent eyewitness accounts, that were written before and during the war. These eyewitness accounts will gives the reader an insight into the events leading to the war and what happened during the war.

Anything outside of these eyewitness accounts could become the subjective and biased opinion of the writer.

RamessesIV:
Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the[b] ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not[/b]

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

This is Leo Frobenius' thesis.
At the time Europe was awash with sentiments of the inferiority of the black man, he attempted to disprove his people but upon getting to Ife and seeing well crafted arts superseding anything that Europe has ever made [except the Greeks], he quickly attempted to appropriate the works for his people by claiming they were made by Etruscan [an ancient people indigenous to a part of modern day Italy but were annihilated by the Romans] and the mythical Atlantis people of ancient Greece.
Overall, this theory has been shattered, battered, brutalized & brought to its knees when equipment/tools used to make many of these art works were excavated in Ile-Ife between 1950s to 1980s.


P.S: This is the same way the wonders of Egypt has been white-washed. They've claimed & continued to push the narratives that Old Egypt wasn't primarily peopled by blacks but rather, the Kingdom had a population of varying races, including whites LOL! This has played out in how Hollywood rendered many Egypt-esque movies meant to push the narratives [and also to entertain]. However, the Egyptians left wall murals depicting they were mostly black skinned thankfully.

samuk:


I just wanted to point out that history could be very subjective and biased without concrete eyewitness collaborative evidence from the times and periods in discussion.

Imagine if a Yoruba historian was to write about the Nigeria civil war today, the historian will do everything possible to make the Yoruba and Awolowo look good.

Same way an Igbo historian will absorb the Igbo of any blame and make Ojukwu look good.

So, anyone reading both versions should ask for independent eyewitness accounts, that were written before and during the war. These eyewitness accounts will gives the reader an insight into the events leading to the war and what happened during the war.

[b]Anything outside of these eyewitness accounts could become the subjective and biased opinion of the write[/b]r.

LOL the emboldened parts show the inadequacies exuded by the laymen who speak on matters of History. Why not face the discipline you had degrees in and leave History to Historians, eh?

Eye witness accounts are pitfalls laden, they're not ultimate and history does not regard it as such. The Historian is not just a story teller as you've made it seem, he's trained to employ and exhaust all sources when writing & to, from his background, detect gaps in accounts. Don't insult the craft some people have given their entire lives to. Do not shxt on the craft many in universities across the world labour daily to master. Rather, accept your own inadequacies in History stemming from your choice to study other disciplines. What you should do is focus on your craft, whatever discipline it was you went to school to study and contribute to or critique it.

samuk:


You asked a very good question. I can tell you now that they will not be able to provide an answer that referenced the period in question because there is simply no written records of that period. What you will get as answer is going to be a biased opinion or narrative.

There is no written record of an eyewitness account of Ife society before 1900.

What you will get is a recently written fabrications presented as scholarly work. A modern biased interpretations of what happened centuries ago by those who were not eyewitness.

Apart from the Bronze arts being dug up in Ife, there is simply no recorded of artistic history that says they were made in Ife or Ife even had the tradition of Bronze casting. Benin could have tailor made those Bronzes for whoever took them there.

Don't be surprised if they come back with a Benin source or reference Benin for their answer.

Another example that they parrot is Ogane being Ife.

In about 1475 a Portuguese that visited Benin recorded that he was told by a Benin resident and informat that there was another great kingdom that had relationship with Benin.

1. This kingdom was to the east of Benin

2. This Ogane kingdom was a distance of 250 leagues or 900 miles

3. The travelling time from Benin to this kingdom of Ogane was 20 moon or 20 months or 1 year 8 months.

Despite the fact that none of the above support Ife as being the location, they still point to some fictitious recent scholars that claim this kingdom is Ife.

For the benefits of doubt.

1. Ife is west of Benin not east as described by the Portuguese who recorded the conversion.

2. Ife is 171 miles from Benin, not 900 miles as recorded by the Portuguese.

3. There was no way the journey from Benin to Ife would have taken 20 months because another European recorded in 1603 that Benin was despatching 2 messagers every day from Benin military camp in Lagos to Benin City. Lagos to Benin is a distance of 201 miles, more than the distance from Benin to Ife.

So, you have to be very wary and mindful when you are given the so called scholarly works that were not written during the period in time as answer to your question.

Anybody can write some nonsense today and tell you that his nonsense opinion is the answer to what happened in 1535AD.

All they often do to disguise their lies and confused the less informed is simply tag their lies and personal opinions as archeological and anthropological findings.

If any Benin person tells you that they colonised Lagos as far back as 1603, demand for a written
independent eyewitness evidence or account that was written in 1603, don't accept or settle for anything written later than 1603. Don't accept historical opinions of some historians written in 1975.

Likewise, if any Yoruba person makes an historical claim, demand a written eyewitness accounts of the time and period in question, don't accept what may be an opinion of someone which is written centuries after the event.

How can someone accurately write about the events of 1600s, 1700s in 1984 and call it the absolute truth.

Anybody can write anything to support their history and put others down, which is why it's very important to demand for eyewitness accounts not opinions of those that were not there masquerading as scholars.

I am going to ask you just one Q.
Do you agree to the Portuguese account that a certain Oghene gave crosses to newly installed Bini kings in the time past?

of course they use white actors cause white people do the movies,anyways I don't have the time for afrocentric/eurocentric debate about egypt and other people's history as it wasn't the point of my post.

Am well aware of the eurocentric and "hamitic hyothesis" by early Early white historians,what I am referring to is claims made by nigerians and even afrocentrist themself,some claim it was knowledge from mecca,some claim it was knowledge from connection with egypt so as you can see this isn't a case of white-washed but claims made by indeginous yoruba people.

OgboAto:



This is Leo Frobenius' thesis.
At the time Europe was awash with sentiments of the inferiority of the black man, he attempted to disprove his people but upon getting to Ife and seeing well crafted arts superseding anything that Europe has ever made [except the Greeks], he quickly attempted to appropriate the works for his people by claiming they were made by Etruscan [an ancient people indigenous to a part of modern day Italy but were annihilated by the Romans] and the mythical Atlantis people of ancient Greece.
Overall, this theory has been shattered, battered, brutalized & brought to its knees when equipment/tools used to make many of these art works were excavated in Ile-Ife between 1950s to 1980s.


P.S: This is the same way the wonders of Egypt has been white-washed. They've claimed & continued to push the narratives that Old Egypt wasn't primarily peopled by blacks but rather, the Kingdom had a population of varying races, including whites LOL! This has played out in how Hollywood rendered many Egypt-esque movies meant to push the narratives [and also to entertain]. However, the Egyptians left wall murals depicting they were mostly black skinned thankfully.

OgboAto:



This is Leo Frobenius' thesis.
At the time Europe was awash with sentiments of the inferiority of the black man, he attempted to disprove his people but upon getting to Ife and seeing well crafted arts superseding an9ything that Europe has ever made [except the Greeks], he quickly attempted to appropriate the works for his people by claiming they were made by Etruscan [an ancient people indigenous to a part of modern day Italy but were annihilated by the Romans] and the mythical Atlantis people of ancient Greece.
Overall, this theory has been shattered, battered, brutalized & brought to its knees when equipment/tools used to make many of these art works were excavated in Ile-Ife between 1950s to 1980s.


P.S: This is the same way the wonders of Egypt has been white-washed. They've claimed & continued to push the narratives that Old Egypt wasn't primarily peopled by blacks but rather, the Kingdom had a population of varying races, including whites LOL! This has played out in how Hollywood rendered many Egypt-esque movies meant to push the narratives [and also to entertain]. However, the Egyptians left wall murals depicting they were mostly black skinned thankfully.

The reason for what you described above was possible was because of the lack of a written and documented history of the period and people that made the Bronze artworks.

If there were written documents of eyewitnesses that record the Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people, it would have been very difficult for anyone to ascribed them to a different culture.

There is absolutely no doubt about the Benin Bronzes and the people that made them.

Whatever is written by Yoruba biased scholars later to correct whatever was previously written about the Ife Bronze by white racist are still subjective and biased narratives of the writer.

The fact that the Bronzes were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that they were made there and they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

Yes early white historians were racist,but as you said need not in effort of fighting prejudice and misconceptions,make unwarrented claims

History should be about independent truth and not politics

And mind most of my claims wasn't in reference to white historians but modern yoruba people,some brought forth strong arguments that ife bronze shows yoruba linkage with the middle east another argued it was egypt as ancient ife came from there

samuk:


The reason for what you described above was possible was the lack of a written and documented history of the period and people that made the Bronze artworks.

If there were written documents of eyewitnesses that record the Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people, it would have been very difficult for anyone to ascribed them to a different culture.

There is absolutely no doubt about the Benin Bronzes and the people that made them.

Whatever is written by Yoruba biased scholars later to correct whatever was previously written about the Ife Bronze by white racist are still subjective and biased narratives of the writer.

The fact that the Bronzes were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that they were made there and they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

Exactly this is the problem i have with african history,is either one is full of myths,another about prejudice,the other was done by white racist,the new ones about making different claims about other people's history

So i think to be highly skeptical of what African say about history cause these days is about more bragging than knowing their ancestors,some are looking for ancestors they never had,i just hope with time well research works of history devoid of bias and politics takes the center stage when we talk of history.

samuk:


I just wanted to point out that history could be very subjective and biased without concrete eyewitness collaborative evidence from the times and periods in discussion.

Imagine if a Yoruba historian was to write about the Nigeria civil war today, the historian will do everything possible to make the Yoruba and Awolowo look good.

Same way an Igbo historian will absorb the Igbo of any blame and make Ojukwu look good.

So, anyone reading both versions should ask for independent eyewitness accounts, that were written before and during the war. These eyewitness accounts will gives the reader an insight into the events leading to the war and what happened during the war.

Anything outside of these eyewitness accounts could become the subjective and biased opinion of the writer.

OgboAto:



I am going to ask you just one Q.
Do you agree to the Portuguese account that a certain Oghene gave crosses to newly installed Bini kings in the time past?

Why should I doubt it, was I there 6oo years ago to know what the practice was?.

The Portuguese gave a detailed account of what he claimed he was told by a Benin informant, and gave a description of the location of the Oghene kingdom.

That kingdom cannot be Ife because of the description and account of the Portuguese. If the evidence points the Oghene kingdom to Asaba, Warri or Kogi and there is concrete prove for it, I will not only accept it, but will equally embrace it as a shared common history between Benin and those places.

Even if it can be proven that Benin accept crosses from another rulers, it doesn't affect the numerous other achievements recorded by the Benin empire.

In Europe, the history of Greece and Rome are celebrated as a shared common history amongst the European, nothing to be ashamed or feel inferior about.

samuk:


Why should I doubt it, was I there 6oo years ago to know what the practice was?.

The Portuguese gave a detailed account of what he claimed he was told by a Benin informant, and gave a description of the location of the Oghene kingdom.

[s]That kingdom cannot be Ife because of the description and account of the Portuguese. If the evidence points the Oghene kingdom to Asaba, Warri or Kogi and there is concrete prove for it, I will not only accept it, but will equally embrace it as a shared common history between Benin and those places.

Even if it can be proven that Benin accept crosses from another rulers, it doesn't affect the numerous other achievements recorded by the Benin empire.

In Europe, the history of Greece and Rome are celebrated as a shared common history amongst the European, nothing to be ashamed or feel inferior about.[/s]

Calm down with the additions. I just needed to know if you agreed and since you've expressly said you do not doubt it, which means you completely believe that a certain Oghane that isn't the Ooni according to you gave the Benin king bass crosses as recorded by the Portuguese then what is your opinion as regards the non-material [Bini King saying prayer for the Ooni], material [excavated brass crosses in Ife] and scientific evidences [thermoluminescence dating] in the screenshot below - now you're going to have to carefully come up with an argument that is way superior to what is contained in the screenshot using the same non-material, material & scientific evidences bro

samuk:


The reason for what you described above was possible was because of the lack of a written and documented history of the period and people that made the Bronze artworks.

If there were written documents of eyewitnesses that record the Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people, it would have been very difficult for anyone to ascribed them to a different culture.

There is absolutely no doubt about the Benin Bronzes and the people that made them.

Whatever is written by Yoruba biased scholars later to correct whatever was previously written about the Ife Bronze by white racist are still subjective and biased narratives of the writer.

The fact that the Bronzes were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that they were made there and they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

1. Hello Egypt had/has Hieroglyphics, what has that changed?

2. Your argument is exactly that of the anti-African whites who claimed the Egyptian monuments were made my Caucasian looking people.

3. If you were well educated & a proper reader of literature, you could see that Frobenius himself indicated that he found the tools & factories where some of the old works were done.

RamessesIV:
of course they use white actors cause white people do the movies,anyways I don't have the time for afrocentric/eurocentric debate about egypt and other people's history as it wasn't the point of my post.

Am well aware of the eurocentric and "hamitic hyothesis" by early Early white historians,what I am referring to is claims made[b] by nigerians and even afrocentrist themself,some claim it was knowledge from mecca,some claim it was knowledge from connection with egypt[/b] so as you can see this isn't a case of white-washed but claims made by indeginous yoruba people.

You're still speaking of hamitic hypothesis but the version hinged on religion.

The Muslims didn't want the origins of their ancestors to be in Europe [believed to be place of Christians] and as such, they began the Mecca tradition. If you conduct an observation you'll see this theory holds ground in Oyo areas where Islam is quite dominant.

In reaction, Christians didn't want to have roots in Mecca/Islam, as such they began the theory Egypt & Sudan. If you check the proponents of this theory, they have been Christians with some being scholars in Christian theology.

It was simply an after-effect of foreign religions brainwash with locals attempting to append their origins to their religions for several purposes including inclusion in the religious community and pursuitof the God-chosen race status.

OgboAto:


Calm down with the additions. I just needed to know if you agreed and since you've expressly said you do not doubt it, which means you completely believe that a certain Oghane that isn't the Ooni according to you gave the Benin king bass crosses as recorded by the Portuguese then what is your opinion as regards the non-material [Bini King saying prayer for the Ooni], material [excavated brass crosses in Ife] and scientific evidences [thermoluminescence dating] in the screenshot below - now you're going to have to carefully come up with an argument that is way superior to what is contained in the screenshot using the same non-material, material & scientific evidences bro

The book you provided was written in 1970, the page you requested I should read, referenced another book that was written in 1967.

Both your 1970 and 1967 authors are strainously trying to situate the Kingdom of Ogane in Ife.

The Portuguese who recorded the account, said the kingdom was east of Benin City, is Ife east of Benin City, the answer is no because Ife is West of Benin City.

The Portuguese writer stated that the distance of the Ogane kingdom from Benin City is 900 miles, is Ife 900 miles from Benin, the answer is no because Ife is only 171 miles from Benin City.

The Portuguese recorded the travelling time to be 20 months journey, Benin to Ife is not a 20 months journey because Benin was doing daily journeys from Benin to Lagos in 1603.

Others reasons why Ogane couldn't be Ife.

1. There is nothing in Yoruba/Ife history that say Ife used to be called Oghene.

2. Between 1475 to 1897 of recorded and written documentation of Benin history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Ooni, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan in Benin history.

Every other tribes and people encountered between 1475 and 1897 are all recorded in Benin history. People of Lagos, Akure, Ekiti, Owo, Agbor etc were all recorded but not a single thing about Ife.

If Benin had any relationship with Ife, there is no way that it wouldn't have been recorded for over 500 years of constant recording and documentation of Benin history by various Europeans.

You just can't wake up 500 years later, in 1967 or 1970 and claim Ogane is Ife, even though the description of Ogane and other evidences doesn't support the location of Ife. That is not history but wishful thinking of the authors.

What stops someone else from waking up tomorrow and claim the Ogane kingdom to be Kano or Sokoto. I hope you can now see why the need to adhere to credible evidence is very important in making any claim.

The evidences doesn't support Ife to be the kingdom of Ogane that was recorded in Benin around 1475.

You also can't make the spurious claim of Benin Bronze being influenced by Ife when there are no evidence to suggest that those Bronzes dug up in Ife were made in Ife and by Ife people.

The only people that this sort of history will make sense to are the Yorubas who only started recording Ife history from 1920.

Everyday since then, more and more fabrications are being authored and written to cover up for the 500 years gab between Benin history and Ife history.

samuk:


The book you provided was written in 1970, the page you requested I should read, referenced another book that was written in 1967.

Both your 1970 and 1967 authors are strainously trying to situate the Kingdom of Ogane in Ife.

The Portuguese who recorded the account, said the kingdom was east of Benin City, is Ife east of Benin City, the answer is no because Ife is West of Benin City.

The Portuguese writer stated that the distance of the Ogane kingdom from Benin City is 900 miles, is Ife 900 miles from Benin, the answer is no because Ife is only 171 miles from Benin City.

The Portuguese recorded the travelling time to be 20 months journey, Benin to Ife is not a 20 months journey because Benin was doing daily journeys from Benin to Lagos in 1603.

Others reasons why Ogane couldn't be Ife.

1. There is nothing in Yoruba/Ife history that say Ife used to be called Oghene.

2. Between 1475 to 1897 of recorded and written documentation of Benin history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Ooni, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan in Benin history.

Every other tribes and people encountered between 1475 and 1897 are all recorded in Benin history. People of Lagos, Akure, Ekiti, Owo, Agbor etc were all recorded but not a single thing about Ife.

If Benin had any relationship with Ife, there is no way that it wouldn't have been recorded for over 500 years of constant recording and documentation of Benin history by various Europeans.

You just can't wake up 500 years later, in 1967 or 1970 and claim Ogane is Ife, even though the description of Ogane and other evidences doesn't support the location of Ife. That is not history but wishful thinking of the authors.

What stops someone else from waking up tomorrow and claim the Ogane kingdom to be Kano or Sokoto. I hope you can now see why the need to adhere to credible evidence is very important in making any claim.

The evidences doesn't support Ife to be the kingdom of Ogane that was recorded in Benin around 1475.

You also can't make the spurious claim of Benin Bronze being influenced by Ife when there are no evidence to suggest that those Bronzes dug up in Ife were made in Ife and by Ife people.

The only people that this sort of history will make sense to are the Yorubas who only started recording Ife history from 1920.

Everyday since then, more and more fabrications are being authored and written to cover up for the 500 years gab between Benin history and Ife history.

You have not provided any non-material evidences to dispute your Kings have not been facing the East to say prayers for the Ooni.

You have not provided any material evidences to dispute the cross recorded by the Portuguese was not the same excavated in Ile-Ife.

You have not provided any scientific evidence showing any dated artifact to indicate that the periods of Bini arts were not post-Ife arts and as such, further refuting all of the content in the screen shot.

I am not interested in your own conjectures and what you think. You're not that educated and neither have you conducted, written and published any research article in your life - as such, your opinions are inconsequential here. Provide peer reviewed articles to augment each of your itemized claims.

Thank you.

OgboAto:



You have not provided any non-material evidences to dispute your Kings have not been facing the East to say prayers for the Ooni.

You have not provided any material evidences to dispute the cross recorded by the Portuguese was not the same excavated in Ile-Ife.

You have not provided any scientific evidence showing any dated artifact to indicate that the periods of Bini arts were not post-Ife arts and as such, further refuting all of the content in the screen shot.

I am not interested in your own conjectures and what you think. You're not that educated and neither have you conducted, written and published any research article in your life - as such, your opinions are inconsequential here. Provide peer reviewed articles to augment each of your itemized claims.

Thank you.

A simple questions was asked about evidence to support the claim that Ife Bronzes were made in Ife and not brought by the people you claimed came from Egypt or Macca to colonised the people and land.

You have failed to produce any credible evidence to support the claims that the Bronzes dug up in Ife were made there by Ife people, you are asking me to provide evidence that Benin written history is 500 years older than Ife history that started in 1920.

Benin tell real history whilst you guys copy and paste stories that were written in 20th century.

If Benin tell you that they produce 20ft iron poles that houses oil lamps to light up the Palace and the square around the Palace 400 years ago, a precursor to modern Street lights and Benin being amongst the first few cities in world with semblance of Street lights, we back it up with an independent eyewitness written accounts that was written in that period, not some 1960 or 1980 fabrications.

samuk:


A simple questions was asked about evidence to support the claim that Ife Bronzes were made in Ife and not brought by the people you claimed came from Egypt or Macca to colonised the people and land.

You have failed to produce any credible evidence to support the claims that the Bronzes dug up in Ife were made there by Ife people, you are asking me to provide evidence that Benin written history is 500 years older than Ife history that started in 1920.

Benin tell real history whilst you guys copy and paste stories that were written in 20th century.

If Benin tell you that they produce 20ft iron poles that houses oil lamps to light up the Palace and the square around the Palace 400 years ago, a precursor to modern Street lights and Benin being amongst the first few cities in world with semblance of Street lights, we back it up with an independent eyewitness written accounts that was written in that period, not some 1960 or 1980 fabrications.

You are not very smart. It is common knowledge that no one came from Mecca. The analysis and basis for all of those nonsense has been analyzed in journal articles, if only you'll read. It has been established no one migrated from Mecca/Sudan/Egypt. In addition, the production sites and tools of Ife arts have been uncovered and detailed in studies. Why are you getting involved in issues beyond your academic level? See the first two attached images.

Secondly, you're only deluding yourself with the street lamp fables that many of you vomit into each other's mouths. Bini was a place of filth and disgust to the Europeans. It was a run down place of slavery & endless ritual murders where decapitated human bodies and bones littered the streets in hundreds. You should be thankful for the punitive expedition, else your ancestors would have probably been murdered as votive to your deities. I've attached just two pages describing Bini's barbarity and dilapidated town but there's more if you want the truth about your town.

OgboAto:


You are not very smart. It is common knowledge that no one came from Mecca. The analysis and basis for all of those nonsense has been analyzed in journal articles, if only you'll read. It has been established no one migrated from Mecca/Sudan/Egypt. In addition, the production sites and tools of Ife arts have been uncovered and detailed in studies. Why are you getting involved in issues beyond your academic level? See the first two attached images.

Secondly, you're only deluding yourself with the street lamp fables that many of you vomit into each other's mouths. Bini was a place of filth and disgust to the Europeans. It was a run down place of slavery & endless ritual murders where decapitated human bodies and bones littered the streets in hundred. You should be thankful for the punitive expedition, else your ancestors would have probably been murdered as votive to your deities. I've attached just two pages describing Bini's barbarity and dilapidated town but there's more if you want the truth about your town.

Inferiority complex has eaten deep into that boy. I think some Yorubas have shown him hell in the past.

He will be gladly willing to concede (even without any evidence) that the Ogane (whom Benin Kings consider to be some kind of god) is anyone else but not the Ooni.

He believes that the following scholars hate him and his Benin heritage so much --- Scholars who have examined the European writtings to conclude that the Ogane was none but the Ooni of Ife:

Bradbury
Stoll
Roth
Marquart
Talbott
R. Smith
R. Horton
Obayemi
Schurhammer
P. Marti
Mauny
Akinjogbin
F. Willett
Adediran
R. Law
Akintoye
Bondarenko

TAO11:


Inferiority complex has eaten deep into that boy. I think some Yorubas have shown him hell in the past.

He will be gladly willing to concede (even without any evidence) that the Ogane (whom Benin Kings consider to be some kind of god) is anyone else but not the Ooni.

He believes that the following scholars hate him and his Benin heritage so much --- Scholars who have examined the European writtings to conclude that the Ogane was none but the Ooni of Ife:

Bradbury
Stoll
Roth
Marquart
Talbott
R. Smith
R. Horton
Obayemi
Schurhammer
P. Marti
Mauny
Akinjogbin
F. Willett
Adediran
R. Law
Akintoye
Bondarenko

LOL.

Ontop of his complex, he's an illiterate.
I doubt if he has read one line from any of the scholars you've listed.

OgboAto:

LOL.

Ontop of his complex, he's an illiterate.
I doubt if he has read one line from any of the scholars you've listed.

Does he read?

He has never cited one line --- even from a newspaper --- to 'buttress his bigotry'.

I didn't remeber to add:

S.P. Blier
H.J. Drewal
R.F. Thompson

To that boy, all these scholars are actually involved in some grand conspiracy because their parents are originally from Ife.

TAO11:


Does he read?

He has never cited one line --- even from a newspaper --- to 'buttress his bigotry'.

I didn't remeber to add:

S.P. Blier
H.J. Drewal
R.F. Thompson

To that boy, all these scholars are actually involved in some grand conspiracy because their parents are originally from Ife.

It's left for RamessesIV who asked the original question to be satisfied with your answer.

I am not face or convinced by your copy and paste rubbish. I don't read fabrications as history.

The fact remains that there will always be a 500 years gap between Benin written history and Ife written history.

Europeans started documenting Benin history in 1475 while you guys stated fabricating Ife stories in 1920.

Everyone knows how disjointed Yoruba history is, from Oduduwa coming from Egypt/mecca to the recent one of being a native of Ife and him being a Benin prince.

No matter what you write, copy and paste, none of the above will change.

No matter the number of people that repeat a lie, it will still remain a lie.

None of you have refuted that the original document states that Ogane of 1475 was

1. East of Benin

2. 20 moons journey from Benin

3. 900 miles from Benin.

This is what the original document says. No matter the recent manipulation and mutations, these 3 basic fact about the Oghene kingdom will not change and none of the facts above support Ife claim.

Lol is not all religion i tell you,people who go around parroting afrocentric history of egypt also claimed this too,I just wanted to clarify Cause it was a serious debate,and since I tend not to do history with political undertones i thought I should come here for better clarification,one even brought claim that it wasn't mecca per say but Iran

OgboAto:


You're still speaking of hamitic hypothesis but the version hinged on religion.

The Muslims didn't want the origins of their ancestors to be in Europe [believed to be place of Christians] and as such, they began the Mecca tradition. If you conduct an observation you'll see this theory holds ground in Oyo areas where Islam is quite dominant.

In reaction, Christians didn't want to have roots in Mecca/Islam, as such they began the theory Egypt & Sudan. If you check the proponents of this theory, they have been Christians with some being scholars in Christian theology.

It was simply an after-effect of foreign religions brainwash with locals attempting to append their origins to their religions for several purposes including inclusion in the religious community and pursuitof the God-chosen race status.

samuk:


It's left for RamessesIV who asked the original question to be satisfied with your answer.

I am not face or convinced by your copy and paste rubbish.

The fact remains that there will always be a 500 years gap between Benin written history and Ife written history.

Europeans started documenting Benin history in 1475 while you guys stated fabricating Ife stories in 1920.

Everyone knows how disjointed Yoruba history is, from Oduduwa coming from Egypt/mecca to the recent one of being a native of Ife and him being a Benin prince.

No matter what you write, copy and paste, none of the above will change.

I am not sure what answer you're referring to as I haven't answered the question he asked me recently ---- At this point, I think you're already drowning in confusion.

The only 500 years gap I see is between you on one hand and sanity on another hand.

João de Barros, Duarte Pacheco Percira, Manuel de Figueirdo, Dierick Ruiters, and Alonso de Sandoval all published in the early1500s and the 1600s about the Ogane who was an overlord to your kings.

All the following scholars, examining those early European writings, conlude unanimously that the Ogane is none other that the Ooni of Ife:

Stoll (1902), Roth (1903), Marquart (1913), Talbot (1926), Schurhammer (1928), P. Marti (1960), Mauny (1961), R. Bradbury (1964), I. Akinjogbin (1967), R. Law (1973), F. Willett (1973), A. Obayemi (1976), R. Horton (1979), R. Thompson, H. Drewal, S. Blier, S. Akintoye, et al.

But somehow for you, they all must be lying.

Name me one indigenous Yoruba tradition/account which says that Oduduwa is from Mecca or Egypt.

Your dumbness is clearly self-inflicted.