RamessesIV:
Thanks for your reply,as usual well written and organized,I just wish some people will learn to reply me without being rude like well educated human beings

Sure, you're welcome!

They just need to drag you to the side of bigotry by hook or by crook.

They just can't wrap their head around the fact that you agree to evidence, proof and reason.

TAO11:


Oh, now I get!

Regarding why we see a discontinued production in modern Ife, in contrast to some continued production in modern Benin Kingdom:

The answers to this lies in an interplay of two important factors, namely: timeline and power.


Earlier on, I alluded to the scientific dating techniques which situates the beginning of the casting tradition of Ife to some centuries before Benin's beginnings. To quote the precise words again, R. Horton writes:

"Along with the new iconographic findings, we have also acquired an impressive series of dates. Application of carbon-14 and thermoluminescence techniques to excavated materials has enabled us to assign approximate absolute dates to several major Ife settlement levels and to the terra-cotta and brass works associated with them. Dates for terra-cotta pieces range from c. A.D. 1000 onward; whilst dates for brass pieces range from c. A.D. 1275 to c. A.D. 1440. Application of these techniques to materials from Owo and Benin has also enabled us to assign dates to some of the "classical" terra-cotta and brass-work associated with these cities. Significantly, the Owo and Benin date-series begin slightly later than their Ife counterparts. One particularly interesting Benin date is for a brass piece previously assessed by Fagg and Dark as early on the ground of its Ife-type naturalism. Thermoluminescence tests give it a date of c. A.D. 1420 -- just what it should be on the premises adopted by these authors.*"

Reference:
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), pp.86-87.

It becomes clear from the foregoing that Benin metal casting tradition begins towards the end-date obtainable for the Ife works in the early 1400s. This relatively newcomer casting tradition of Benin then continues till the arrival of the Portugues in c.1480 and beyond.

It is import to notice that, interestingly, the beginnings of the metal casting tradition Benin almost coincides perfectly with the gradual rise of Benin Kingdom as a power during the reign of Ewuare1.

This intersection of the casting tradition with the rise of Benin Kingdom as a power serves to bolster the tradition till the fall of the kingdom in 1897. Although, some volume of production may have survive in modern times even after the fall in 1897, these volume of production can not possibly be comparable to the volume of production when the kingdom was at its height.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Benin as well as the rise and fall the Benin Kingdom is closer to our modern times.


In contrast to Benin, Ife emerged as a power in the West Africa region from c.900AD up to c.14550AD when it fell. In relation to this R. Horton writes:

"Phase 2. (900 A.D.-1450 A.D.)
Ife emerged as a power in the region after the main wave of Yoruba expansion and cultural differentiation."

Reference:
Ibid., p.140.

Just like in the latter Benin case, Ife's art tradition spanning (1000AD to 1440AD) coincides almost perfectly with its rise as a power. It becomes obvious then that its fall plays a roll in the gradual decline of its art tradition obviously.

In fact, the factors responsible for its fall, are such peculiar factors as to necessitate the termination of its rich casting tradition. Interestingly and luckily for Benin Kingdom, such are not the same factors that led to Benin's fall.

Some of these factors are discussed under R. Horton's "phase 3 summary" as follows:

"Phase 3. (1450 A.D.-1650 A.D.)
Two outlying Ife provincial centres, Benin and Oyo, developed new trade routes linking seaboard, forest and savanna. These routes by-passed Ife to the east and the west. Early on, they provided alternative avenues for the traditional goods of the old central route. Later, they provided avenues for inland transportation of the important new supplies of cheap copper and iron brought to the coast by European merchants, thus giving Benin and Oyo rather than Ife first access to these vital commodities. In addition, Oyo, apparently borrowing the idea from its northern neighbours, developed a powerful cavalry force which enabled it to dominate the area between the forest and the Niger. These commercial and military developments tipped the balance of wealth and power away from Ife and toward Benin and Oyo. Both of the latter became independent of Ife. And as they started to overshadow the former metropolis, they drew much of its population away from it. Inspired by their example and encouraged by the dwindling power of Ife, other newly prosperous provincial centres followed them into independence ; and they too became magnets for the city's population. Ife was left small, poor, militarily weak and culturally impoverished."

Reference:
Ibid., p.141.

In all, the beginning of the tradition in Ife as well as the rise and fall Ife is father away from our modern times than Benin's.

Are you serious right now or joking?

So Ife declined and stopped producing artworks because of the rise of Benin and later Oyo.

According to your sources, the rise of Oyo and Benin attracted people away from Ife, who probably migrated to new headquarters of commerce, why did the people that left Ife to Oyo not continue with the artistic tradition in Oyo or any of the other Yoruba towns they migrated to.

You also suggested that both Benin and Oyo took trade out of Ife, meaning Ife lost the market for their artworks to Benin.

Who were Ife selling their artworks to before the rise of Benin and Oyo who took over Ife trade routes?

Why are there no more of Ife artworks discovered across Nigeria or other west Africa countries that they would have sold their arts to in commercial quantities.

Why did Benin continue with their artistic skills even after Benin empire ended in 1897, over 100 years ago.

There is no reason for Ife to have stopped producing their artworks because of the rise of Benin and Oyo.

Benin artworks were not originally sold, so there were no art markets that Benin took away from Ife. Benin artworks were the exclusive preserves of the Oba.

The truth is those artworks were not originally made in Ife.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

RamessesIV:
Thanks for this,I didn't take his word per say,just unlike the benins[b] i have never heard of ife bronze culture in modern times,I was just wondering why it didn't survive till modern times(or if it did and I am unaware of then is my bad)
[/b]
Was it due to loss of power of ife

Famine,disease,war

Colonization

Christianity and rise of islam

Take example we know for sure egyptian culture when to decline not due to invasion or population change as widely claimed,but first spread of christianity before it was finally killed out by arab conquest.

I'll begin with the second part I emboldened. The factor you stated as the cause of the gap between the Old & New Egypt is not only incorrect but an outright oversimplification of a historical process that took a long time.

The Egyptians were conquered & reconquered by several groups starting with the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Arabs, to the several Berber tribes & Mamluks, to the Ottomans & finally the British. However, the Greek & Roman invasions were recorded to have forced migration of Egyptians into Mid-East, Sahara belt & the West of North Africa for instance thereby leaving a gap between the monuments/arts from pre-historic times and the post-Rome Egypt. The gist is, at the time the Arabs and British got there, the gap between Old & New Egypt had already been created.

For the first emboldened line, the Ife made art works in Stones, Clay, Bronze & Iron. Several of the production sites have been discovered and written about extensively by archeologists, many who made their entire careers from studies on Ile-Ife.

I have attempted to provide a snapshot of some of the studies discussing production sites of some of these works in Ile-Ife. However, there are compounds in Ile-Ife today whose Oriki describe their exploits in Stone working, Iron working, Bronze working & Bead Industry. For instance, Hon Ajilesoro, a member of the HOR, is from Obalufon house but his name describes his ancestors' role in bead making industry - their oriki explores full gist. In fact, the name 'Ajilesoro' is derived from a process of bead making.

Anyway, a few of these compounds still hold on to & operate their ancestral professions today particularly in Bronze & Iron working today using the original sites they began from in pre-historic times. Be that as it may, there appears to be a gap between the many monuments from Ife & the Ife of today [like the Egyptian monuments & the Egyptians of today] and this is due to shifts in the items of value; each Ooni from the time past seemed to have a preference for certain professions which they served as patrons for; & the wars with Modakeke leading to the expulsion of Ife for about two consecutive times leading to the migration of Ife to Isoya, Oke Igbo, Ifewara, Ifetedo where a good number refused to return for fear of the war reoccurring. For instance, Ooni Obalufon sponsored Bronze industry; Ooni Lajamisan sponsored bead industry; Ooni Lafogido sponsored stone industry; and Ooni Okiti heavily promoted Iron industry. This state backing had effected on the line of profession and item of trade the people pursued thereby causing a shift in continuity of these things. Furthermore, if you've read Wydham's account of his visit to Ife, he saw so many monuments/artifacts abandoned and many carted of by the Modakeke during the wars.

Conversely, if you look at Bini, you'll find the Bronze and Bead works in that region appear to have been continuously sponsored by every of their Kings. This long term stability created some time of preservation of profession and continuity.

samuk:

[s]Are you serious right now or joking?

So Ife declined and stopped producing artworks because of the rise of Benin and later Oyo.

According to your sources, the rise of Oyo and Benin attracted people away from Ife, who probably migrated to new headquarters of commerce, why did the people that left Ife to Oyo not continue with the artistic tradition in Oyo or any of the other Yoruba towns they migrated to.

You also suggested that both Benin and Oyo took trade out of Ife, meaning Ife lost the market for their artworks to Benin.

Who were Ife selling their artworks to before the rise of Benin and Oyo who took over Ife trade routes?

Why are there no more of Ife artworks discovered across Nigeria or other west Africa countries that they would have sold their arts to in commercial quantities.

Why did Benin continue with their artistic skills even after Benin empire ended in 1897, over 100 years ago.

There is no reason for Ife to have stopped producing their artworks because of the rise of Benin and Oyo.

Benin artworks were not originally sold, so there were no art markets that Benin took away from Ife.

The truth is those artworks were not originally made in Ife.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft. Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with lies.[/s]

You're so insecure because evidence is been churned out by me!

Until you bring evidence to challenge Professor R. Horton --- apart from your usual insanely nauseous rants --- you remain a scum of the earth.

As always, all your rants have already been debunked and trashed in my earlier comments.

Guess what, the fact that I've trashed you beyond repair is attested to by my Yoruba people and by a sane Edo, who is unlike the rest of you --- this fact alone drive you insane. I know!

Get ye behind me, you scumbag!

TAO11:


One day we will read here on Nairaland that the autopsy report on some Bini corpse shows bigotry to be the cause of their death.

Just watch out!

LOOOOOL
The hate is deep rooted in them.
I have a research paper that details what appears to be a continuous shift in the Bini-centric narrative of the Ife-Bini connections. The narrative had changed several times that the author declared it as nonsense, I died .

OgboAto:


LOOOOOL
The hate is deep rooted in them.
I have a research paper that details what appears to be a continuous shift in the Bini-centric narrative of the Ife-Bini connections. The narrative had changed several times that the author declared it as nonsense, I died .

Just like we're witnessing it here on Nairaland with their neophytes.

The keep sommersaulting from one contradiction to another and back to a prior in such a confused Brownian pattern ad-infinitum.

It appears to be some genetic disorder, but what do I know.

Am not entirely incorrect if I go by egyptian history,egyptian culture went uninterrupted till hellenistic plotemic period where hellinistic culture and knowledge spread in greek city of alexandria,even at that Egyptian culture was still with the native population as plotemies took in Egyptian culture,there was alot of egyptian arts during plotemic and early roman period,Egypt large monument were already in decline for centuries due to environmental and political issues affecting egypt before Greeks or romans came,egypt never lost their population demograph,hence why plotemies enlisted egyptians in their armies,and roman soldiers were always ending riots,egypt was the food basket of the roman empire and one of the most populated and "settled places with cities" In the ancient world,Egyptian indigenous culture went into decline due to spread of Christianity and continued in a mixed greek christian coptic culture and ended with Arab conquest,and present day egypt is "Arab" the only remnance of ancient egypt in modern Egyptian culture today is the "coptic language" and there wasn't a forced migration out,conquest doesn't lead to depopulation,and there was never a record of large scale famine,enslavement of the native population,or large scale genocide to have warranted an exodus,pheonicians went arab,persia went hellinistic and muslim persia thanks to greek and arab conquest

OgboAto:


I'll begin with the second part I emboldened. The factor you stated as the cause of the gap between the Old & New Egypt is not only incorrect but an outright oversimplification of a historical process that took a long time.

The Egyptians were conquered & reconquered by several groups starting with the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Arabs, to the several Berber tribes & Mamluks, to the Ottomans & finally the British. However, the Greek & Roman invasions were recorded to have forced migration of Egyptians into Mid-East, Sahara belt & the West of North Africa for instance thereby leaving a gap between the monuments/arts from pre-historic times and the post-Rome Egypt.

For the first emboldened line, the Ife made art works in Stones, Clay, Bronze & Iron. Several of the production sites have been discovered and written about extensively by archeologists, many who made their entire career from studies on Ile-Ife.

I have attempted to provide a snapshot of some of the studies discussing production sites of some of these works in Ile-Ife. However, there are compounds in Ile-Ife today whose Oriki describe their exploits in Stone working, Iron working, Bronze working & Bead Industry. For instance, Hon Ajilesoro, a member of the HOR, is from Obalufon house but his name describes his ancestors' role in bead making industry - their oriki explores full gist.

Anyway, a few of these compounds still hold on to & operate their ancestral professions today particularly in Bronze & Iron working today using the original sites they began from in pre-historic times. Be that as it may, there appears to be a gap between the many monuments from Ife & the Ife of today [like the Egyptian monuments & the Egyptians of today] and this is due to shifts in the items of value; each Ooni from the time past seemed to have a preference for certain professions which they served as patrons for; & the wars with Modakeke leading to the expulsion of Ife for about two consecutive times leading to the migration of Ife to Isoya, Oke Igbo, Ifewara, Ifetedo where a good number refused to return for fear of the war reoccurring. For instance, Ooni Obalufon sponsored Bronze industry; Ooni Lajamisan sponsored bead industry; Ooni Lafogido sponsored stone industry; and Ooni Okiti heavily promoted Iron industry. This state backing had effected on the line of profession and item of trade the people pursued thereby causing a shift in continuity of these things. Furthermore, if you've read Wydham's account of his visit to Ife, he saw so many monuments/artifacts abandoned and many carted of by the Modakeke during the wars.

Conversely, if you look at Bini, you'll find the Bronze and Bead works in that region appear to have been continuously sponsored by every of their Kings. This long term stability created some time of preservation of profession and continuity.

Thanks for this I really appreciate the well thought explanation.

OgboAto:


I'll begin with the second part I emboldened. The factor you stated as the cause of the gap between the Old & New Egypt is not only incorrect but an outright oversimplification of a historical process that took a long time.

The Egyptians were conquered & reconquered by several groups starting with the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Arabs, to the several Berber tribes & Mamluks, to the Ottomans & finally the British. However, the Greek & Roman invasions were recorded to have forced migration of Egyptians into Mid-East, Sahara belt & the West of North Africa for instance thereby leaving a gap between the monuments/arts from pre-historic times and the post-Rome Egypt. The gist is, at the time the Arabs and British got there, the gap between Old & New Egypt had already been created.

For the first emboldened line, the Ife made art works in Stones, Clay, Bronze & Iron. Several of the production sites have been discovered and written about extensively by archeologists, many who made their entire careers from studies on Ile-Ife.

I have attempted to provide a snapshot of some of the studies discussing production sites of some of these works in Ile-Ife. However, there are compounds in Ile-Ife today whose Oriki describe their exploits in Stone working, Iron working, Bronze working & Bead Industry. For instance, Hon Ajilesoro, a member of the HOR, is from Obalufon house but his name describes his ancestors' role in bead making industry - their oriki explores full gist. In fact, the name 'Ajilesoro' is derived from a process of bead making.

Anyway, a few of these compounds still hold on to & operate their ancestral professions today particularly in Bronze & Iron working today using the original sites they began from in pre-historic times. Be that as it may, there appears to be a gap between the many monuments from Ife & the Ife of today [like the Egyptian monuments & the Egyptians of today] and this is due to shifts in the items of value; each Ooni from the time past seemed to have a preference for certain professions which they served as patrons for; & the wars with Modakeke leading to the expulsion of Ife for about two consecutive times leading to the migration of Ife to Isoya, Oke Igbo, Ifewara, Ifetedo where a good number refused to return for fear of the war reoccurring. For instance, Ooni Obalufon sponsored Bronze industry; Ooni Lajamisan sponsored bead industry; Ooni Lafogido sponsored stone industry; and Ooni Okiti heavily promoted Iron industry. This state backing had effected on the line of profession and item of trade the people pursued thereby causing a shift in continuity of these things. Furthermore, if you've read Wydham's account of his visit to Ife, he saw so many monuments/artifacts abandoned and many carted of by the Modakeke during the wars.

Conversely, if you look at Bini, you'll find the Bronze and Bead works in that region appear to have been continuously sponsored by every of their Kings. This long term stability created some time of preservation of profession and continuity.

RamessesIV:
Am not entirely incorrect if I go by egyptian history,egyptian culture went uninterrupted till hellenistic plotemic period where hellinistic culture and knowledge spread in greek city of alexandria,even at that Egyptian culture was still with the native population as plotemies took in Egyptian culture,there was alot of egyptian arts during plotemic and early roman period,Egypt large monument were already in decline for centuries due to environmental and political issues affecting egypt before Greeks or romans came,egypt never lost their population demograph,hence why plotemies enlisted egyptians in their armies,and roman soldiers were always ending riots,egypt was the food basket of the roman empire and one of the most populated and "settled places with cities" In the ancient world,Egyptian indigenous culture went into decline due to spread of Christianity and continued in a mixed greek christian coptic culture and ended with Arab conquest,and present day egypt is "Arab" the only remnance of ancient egypt in modern Egyptian culture today is the "coptic language" and there wasn't a forced migration out,conquest doesn't lead to depopulation,and there was never a record of large scale famine,enslavement of the native population,or large scale genocide to have warranted an exodus,pheonicians went arab,persia went hellinistic and muslim persia thanks to greek and arab conquest

Post-Roman Egypt.
However, the process of the cleavage began much earlier than the Christians & Arabs.
I agree the present 'Egyptians' are Arabs.

Mancala:
I noticed in the documentary you provided, the mention of a huge bronze bird on the roof of the Oba of Benins palace in a bronze sculpture. This is strikingly similar to the bird on the head of the horseman. Would you happen to know the significance of this bird?

TAO11:
I'm so sorry I missed this question.

I do not know what the significance of the bird on the palace was, nor do I know how it's related (if related) to the bird adorning the horseman's headdress.

I hope to be able to find out in the nearest time and get back to you, in case I find out before you.

Cheers!

TAO11:
Hi there! It's been some time.

I finally found something as per your question to me on the significance of such birds.

To share in the nearest time. Wanted to put this post at the top of my list first.

Regarding the bird imagery in Yoruba (and allied) iconography, Pemberton and Afolayan writing specifically about the crown of the Orangun-Ila have the following to say citing the studies of Henry and Margaret Drewal:

"Henry and Margaret Drewal have shown in their studies of bird imagery in Yoruba iconography that birds are associated with power ... of women or "our mothers" ... It is their hidden, procreative power, a power that can give birth but can also be used to deny others their creative power. It is woman's power upon which the continuity of a husband's patrilineage depends. And ... "without the mothers" (a king) "could not rule". Furthermore, the large bird at the peak of the crown is attached to a peg the other end of which is bound to a packet of powerful ingredients ... placed in the top of the crown ... The packet touches the top of the Oba's head ... which is thought to contain (his) life force ... It makes the Oba powerful over all kinds of spirits ..."

Reference:
Pemberton and Afolayan: Yoruba Sacred Kingship, pp.89-94.

The foregoing reference to Henry and Margaret Drewal's studies on bird imagery in Yoruba iconography is clearly seen to be in relation to the powers of "àwọn ìyá mi òṣòròngà".

As it has been mentioned above, recognizing and acknowledging "them" in the palace's overall political structure will guarantee a smooth running of the government and vice-versa.

This fact, therefore, provides some collateral explanation for the presence of such bird imagery on the headdress of the Ife art emissary to Benin, as well as atop the Benin palace itself.

The former being a diplomat representing the Ife-Yoruba government in a foreign land, while the latter is the actual embassy of the Ife-Yoruba government in that land.

Cheers!

cc: OgboAto, macof

TAO11:






Regarding the bird imagery in Yoruba (and allied) iconography, Pemberton and Afolayan writing specifically about the crown of the Orangun-Ila have the following to say citing the studies of Henry and Margaret Drewal:

"Henry and Margaret Drewal have shown in their studies of bird imagery in Yoruba iconography that birds are associated with power ... of women or "our mothers" ... It is their hidden, procreative power, a power that can give birth but can also be used to deny others their creative power. It is woman's power upon which the continuity of a husband's patrilineage depends. And ... "without the mothers" (a king) "could not rule". Furthermore, the large bird at the peak of the crown is attached to a peg the other end of which is bound to a packet of powerful ingredients ... placed in the top of the crown ... The packet touches the top of the Oba's head ... which is thought to contain (his) life force ... It makes the Oba powerful over all kinds of spirits ..."

Reference:
Pemberton and Afolayan: Yoruba Sacred Kingship, pp.89-94.

The foregoing reference to Henry and Margaret Drewal's studies on bird imagery in Yoruba iconography is clearly seen to be in relation to the powers of "àwọn ìyá mi òṣòròngà".

As it has been mentioned above, recognizing and acknowledging "them" in the palace's overall political structure will guarantee a smooth running of the government and vice-versa.

This fact therefore provides some collateral explanation for the presence of such bird imagery on the headdress of the Ife art emissary to Benin, as well as atop the Benin palace itself.

The former being a diplomat representing the Ife-Yoruba government in a foreign land, while the latter is the actual embassy of the Ife-Yoruba government in that land.

Cheers!

cc: OgboAto, macof

You were asked about the bird on the roof of Benin Oba Palace, you went on Yoruba interpretation of the significance of bird and then assumed it's the same in Benin and concluded that the practice went from Ife to Benin.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


You were asked about the bird on the roof of Benin Oba Palace, you went on Yoruba interpretation of the significance of bird and then assumed it's the same in Benin and concluded that the practice went from Ife to Benin.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

Hey deluded illiterate, cite even a newspaper to substantiate at least one of your numerous lies, then people will begin to view you as having some sanity.

In the absense of no evidence whatsoever to substantiate any of your rants, you remain the same circus clown that I've made you into.

I hope you don't finally go full-blown insane.


Regarding your bolded, what about I send you $2,500 if you can prove your own claim?

That is more straightforward as it is you who made your own claim, and you at least have some interest in your claim.

This is in sharp contrast to everyone else whom you're pushing it to who either knows you to be a circus clown, or do not have the academic resources at the moment, or aren't just interested in what you have to say knowing well that you've been exposed again and again as a fatuous cunning liar.

samuk:


Are you serious right now or joking?

So Ife declined and stopped producing artworks because of the rise of Benin and later Oyo.

According to your sources, the rise of Oyo and Benin attracted people away from Ife, who probably migrated to new headquarters of commerce, why did the people that left Ife to Oyo not continue with the artistic tradition in Oyo or any of the other Yoruba towns they migrated to.

You also suggested that both Benin and Oyo took trade out of Ife, meaning Ife lost the market for their artworks to Benin.

Who were Ife selling their artworks to before the rise of Benin and Oyo who took over Ife trade routes?

Why are there no more of Ife artworks discovered across Nigeria or other west Africa countries that they would have sold their arts to in commercial quantities.

Why did Benin continue with their artistic skills even after Benin empire ended in 1897, over 100 years ago.

There is no reason for Ife to have stopped producing their artworks because of the rise of Benin and Oyo.

Benin artworks were not originally sold, so there were no art markets that Benin took away from Ife. Benin artworks were the exclusive preserves of the Oba.

The truth is those artworks were not originally made in Ife.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

Ife can never be great without Benin.. Everything they have said about Ife is Benin, take Benin out of it and there is no Ife.

davidnazee:


Ife can never be great without Benin.. Everything they have said about Ife is Benin, take Benin out of it and there is no Ife.

That's why I have this challenge for them.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1987, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


That's why I have this challenge for them.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1987, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

J U Egharevba's work counts as written history between 1475 and 1987 oh. I'm just telling you now make them no chop your 1K.

RedboneSmith:


J U Egharevba's work counts as written history between 1475 and 1987 oh. I'm just telling you now make them no chop your 1K.

The challenge is very simple. Anybody interested should go through the various libraries and archives of Benin history written between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period and believe me there are thousands of pages covering every rulers and people Benin came into contact with. All I am asking is to point out the names Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan from any of those written accounts.

The thread has gone quiet since I throw up the challenge.

I am certain there will be nothing to point to because Benin/Ife relationship was created after the end of Benin empire in 1897.

The Yoruba are trying to create Ife out of the ashes of Benin empire and claim Benin history for themselves, but Benin is not completely dead, buried or cremated yet.

samuk:


The challenge is very simple. Anybody interested should go through the various libraries and archives of Benin history written between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period and believe me there are thousands of pages covering every rulers and people Benin came into contact with. All I am asking is to point out the names Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan from any of those written accounts.

The thread has gone quiet since I throw up the challenge.

I am certain there will be nothing to point to because Benin/Ife relationship was created after the end of Benin empire in 1897.

The Yoruba are trying to create Ife out of the ashes of Benin empire and claim Benin history for themselves, but Benin is not completely dead, buried or cremated yet.

The post said 1987. Now you're saying 1897.

RedboneSmith:


The post said 1987. Now you're saying 1897.

That boy is a circus clown. Ask if he has eaten today to want to send people money??

Even Samuel Johnson's "The History of the Yorubas" was completed by 1897.

His illiteracy is just too loud.

TAO11:


That boy is a circus clown. Ask if he has eaten today to want to send people money??

Even Samuel Johnson's "The History of the Yorubas" was completed by 1897.

His illiteracy is just too loud.

Roupell who was involved in the invasion of 1897 also wrote that the Palace Officials told him that Benin people sent to Ife for a king and Eweka was sent to them.

RedboneSmith:


Roupell who was involved in the invasion of 1897 also wrote that the Palace Officials told him that Benin people sent to Ife for a king and Eweka was sent to them.

Exactly! That boy is just a tribal bigot and an illiterate.

A very terrible combination!

RedboneSmith:


The post said 1987. Now you're saying 1897.

I am sure that was a typo, go back to the previous discussions on this challenge, it was written more than once. It's between 1475 to 1897.

You can also read previous post on this challenge. The queen of copy and paste hasn't be able to copy and paste her way out of this.

If the Benin told the English about Ife while the English were busy ransacking and burning down Benin city in 1897, I am sure the Benin would have also told other Europeans that visited and documented the history of Benin between 1475 and 1897.

All you guys need to do is just provide a reference to such a book or writer and the prize is yours.

geosegun:
The above summarized it all. Another knock out from @TAO11. What a well seasoned scholarly person you are...Respect.

I wonder why some people will be comfortable to lie and distort history because of their inferiority complex. What's the big deal if one city rules over the other...? For the records, Britain was enslaved by Roman's, the now mighty US was ruled by small highland Britain for almost 400 years and brought about her civilisation and heaven did not fall. Even Britain, the US and some rest of old powers are confidence to include these in there national histories. They ve accepted who they are and have moved on and hence, great people now.

But nay, our people will distort histories and think they are doing themselves a tribal service? Not knowing that it was a great disservice to generations yet unborn, as no one will ever take you/them serious in any way. This act of historical distortions is a national disgrace. This has to stop.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

Listen up Illiterate, Johnson's "The History of The Yorubas" completed in 1897 is littered with Ife, Oranmiyan, Oduduwa, Ife-Benin connection.

But what do we expect from an illiterate who struggles to feed but wants to send people $1000?

cc: geosegun

TAO11:
Listen up Illiterate, Johnson's "The History of The Yorubas" completed in 1897 is littered with Ife, Oranmiyan, Oduduwa, Ife-Benin connection.

But do we expect from an illiterate who struggles to feed but wants to send people $1000?

cc: geosegun

Even though Johnson didn't write the history of Benin, but I am ready to consider it if you can give me the year the book was published. Please provide a citation from the Johnson's book you referred to, including the year it was published.

Please hurry up I am sure our readers are waiting for this great moment of revelation.

I am already panicking and quaking in my boots.

This is indeed a serious head scratching moment for all Yoruba nairaland pseudo historians.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


Even though Johnson didn't write the history of Benin, but I am ready to consider it if you can give me the year the book was published.

Please hurry up I am sure our readers are waiting for this great moment of revelation.

Who do you think is taking your moronic challenge?

Your idiotic challenge says a book "written in..."--- but now it's become a book "published in...".

Your idiotic challenge alludes to a book containing "Benin's written history" --- but now it's changed to a book whose front title must say "Benin Written History".

In any case, before you begin to delude yourself into thinking that your challenge is worth taking, I'm simply pointing out your idiocy to you by asking you to meet the following challenge:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

TAO11:


Who do you think is taking your moronic challenge.

Your idiotic challenge says a book "written in..."--- but now it's become a book "published in...".

Your idiotic challenge alludes to a book containing "Benin's written history" --- but now it's changed to a book whose front title must say "Benin Written History".

In any case, before you begin to delude yourself, I'm simply pointing out your idiocy to you by asking you to meet the following challenge:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

When you cite a book , don't you cite the purplish date, you have suddenly forgotten how to give a citation. The queen of copy and paste fabricated citations is finally humbled.

This is a head scratching moment for all the Yoruba pseudo nairaland historians.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


When you cite a book , don't you cite the purplish date, you have suddenly forgotten how to give a citation. The queen of copy and paste fabricated citations is finally humbled

This is a head scratching moment for all the Yoruba pseudo nairaland historians.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

(1) Books are written before they are published.

(2) If the completion date of the writing is known, then we say we know the completion date.

(3) If only the publication date is known, then we say just that.

(4) But in this case, we also know the completion date.

This humiliation you've brought upon yourself is inescapable.

And that's because your moronic challenge is simply not well planned out, courtesy of your illiteracy.


My challenge to you however is as follows:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

TAO11:


(1) Books are written before they are published.

(2) If the completion date of the writting is known, then we say we know the completion date.

(3) If only the publication date is known, then was just that.

(4) But in this case, we also know the completion date.

This humiliation you've brought upon yourself is inescapable.

And that's because your moronic challenge is simply not well planned out, courtesy of your illiteracy.


My challenge to you however is as follows:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

All you need to do is copy and paste as usual and give us the reference to the book with year published. Just give us a citation and stop all these embarrassing dribbling around with words.

Ejoor, we are all waiting. There is no deadline yet to the prize payout.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


All you need to do is copy and paste as usual and give us the reference to the book with year published.

Ejoor, we are all waiting. There is no deadline yet to the prize payout.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

The book was completed in 1897 and published years afterwards. This is public known information.

And you asked for a writing up to 1897, didn't you?

What you should seek to do is disprove the fact that the writting was completed by 1897.

I already see the humiliatiin in your tone. You brought it upon yourself, I am not to blame.


Having humiliated you on your idiotic challenge:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

TAO11:


The book was completed in 1897 and published years afterwards. This is known information.

And you asked for a writing up to 1897.

What you should seek to do is disprove the fact that the writting was completed by 1897.

I already see the humiliatiin in your tone.


Having humiliated you on your idiotic challenge:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

Quote a book on Benin history that mentioned Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife. You know how to cite a book. You are not new to referencing a book.

If you are not up to the task, please let others try their luck.

If Benin had relationship with Ife in the first 400 years of Benin written and documented history, there would have been numerous mention of Ife in Benin history and the mention will not just be confined to the 1800s alone.

There are numerous mention of Lagos in Benin history from 1603.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


Quote a book on Benin history that mentioned Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife. You know how to cite a book. You are not new to referencing a book.

If you are not up to the task, please let others try their luck.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

Hahahahah, why did you run back to square one.

Going circular to save-face??

Take it from the link below in case you love retrogressing:

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/9#89185234


Isn't the humiliation palpably perceptible?


Anyways, your challenge is still waiting for 2500 whopping dollars $$ :

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived

Your idiocy must be obvious to you now at this point.

The Yoruba told us that the Benin people had a fantastic relationship with Ife since 1180AD.

When the European started visiting Benin from 1475 up till 1897, the Benin completely forgot to tell the various Europeans that documented Benin history about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan. Some of these Europeans were resident in Benin for years. They never saw or hear anything about Benin/Ife relationship. They never saw any message from Benin to Ife or from Ife to Benin.

The Benin remembered to tell the Europeans about everyone else except Ife. Various rulers and people were spoken about and recorded but Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan are missing from the Benin history books and European archives of Benin history between 1475 to 1897.

In 1897, after the fall of the Benin empire, the Benin suddenly woke up and realised that there was one small and very important detail about their history they haven't told anyone for 400 years. That is the Benin/Ife relationship.

Why did Benin forget this very important father and son relationship between Benin and Ife for over 400 years. Was it because there was no relationship in the first place or the Benin were just too busy decimating, conquering, colonising and killing every rebellious rulers around them and in far away lands.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.