Afam4eva:
I've been following the back and forth about who originally owns the word "Oba" between the Bini and Yoruba and despite the fact that we've always been told that it i s the benin people who own that word owing to how cultural we allude them to be, i'm having a rethink because i base my judgement on fact. While this is not conclusive, i think i'm more inclined to think that Oba is indeed a Yoruba word.

However, we will await ore rebuttals with facts supported by documents as requested.

Great to hear that you are already going in the same direction where the facts have been going so far on this thread.

Just to be clear on the point I’ve been making so far on this thread so I am not misconstrued:

(1) I haven’t claimed that “oba” was never used by the Binis until the 1900s.

(2) I haven’t claimed that there is no 1800s writing which uses the word “oba” ARGUABLY in relation to Benin monarchy — although none of them is yet able to provide an 1800s writing depicting even such ARGUABLE use.


Rather, my position is as follows for the umpteenth time:

(1) The original claim of the Benin Clown-In-Chief (that there is no pre-1900 written evidence which uses the word “oba” in relation to Yoruba monarchy) is ignorantly false and laughable — And I demonstrated my position with actual evidence.

(2) The modified claim of the Benin Clown-In-Chief (that there is no pre-1900 written evidence which mentions a Yoruba monarch by name alongside the word “oba”) is also ignorantly false and laughable — And I demonstrated my position with actual evidence.

(3) The claim of the Benin Clown-In-Chief (that there exist some “600 years” old written evidence of “oba” usage for Beni monarchs) is a bogus and delusional claim that has absolutely no basis.

(4) In response to his modified claims, there is in fact no written evidence either from the 1800s, or 1700s, or 1600s, or 1500s, etc. which mentions a Benin monarch by name, and with the description “Oba”.

(5) In response to his original claims, there is in fact no written evidence from the 1800s (at least that I’m aware of) which uses “oba” in clear-cut unequivocal relation to any kingdom called Benin, Beny, Ubini, Ibini, Ado, Igodomigodo, or any other name for that matter by which Benin kingdom may be identified.

Neither is there any written evidence of any sort at all from the 1700s, 1600s, or 1500s, etc. which shows the word “oba” at all for their monarchs.

Having said all that, a final acid test which would in fact close and conclude this discourse for you — as to who originally owns the word “oba” — is to consider the word itself (i.e. “oba” ) from the lenses of each of the two respective languages themselves, viz. the Yoruba language and the Edo language.

From the lenses of the Yoruba language, the syllabic components of the word “ọba” are (obviously) “ọ” and “ba”.

The meaning of this base word “ba” in the Yoruba language is clear and accessible even to the average speaker — it means: to “overlord”, etc.

Its prefix “ọ“ describes the noun who performs the action conveyed by the base word. Innumerable similar examples as this abound in everyday usage.

In sum, the word ”ọba” — from the lenses of the Yoruba language — means: the “one who overlords”, or “the overlord” for short.

Notice how this meaning (via the Yoruba language lenses) fits monarchy like a glove.

Guess what! The same thing can not be said from the Edo point of view. And the reason for that is not far-fetched at all — a loanword can not possibly be meaningfully analyzed from the point of view of the recipient-language.

You may challenge one of them for a correspondingly similar analysis from the lenses of the Edo language in order to note the ensuing meaninglessness for yourself.

cc: RedboneSmith, macof

————————
PS: The following remark is in relation to a foregoing comment by the Benin Vice-Clown-In-Chief where he notes that I must provide evidence of EuRoPeAn writing showing the use of “Ogiso” (the first monarchy title):

^^ I’m certain that you are aware that no where did I or any other sane person claim that Europeans visited Africa prior to the present and second monarchy of the Binis.

I trust that you are also aware that the obligation to prove an assertion lies with whoever makes the said assertion.

Why is this thread quite

Etrusen

Edeyoung:



Bro you don't need prove visit goggle bro

interesting. google is now your evidence?
you can't be asking yorubas for documented evidence for very obvious facts all the time, which we still provide and when the tables are turned on you , you fail to provide yours.
if you can't provide evidence of bini use of the word 'oba' in pre-1900s then by your usual logic, that must mean the oba of benin is a recent position

[quote author=macof post=96263656] interesting. google is now your evidence?
you can't be asking yorubas for documented evidence for very obvious facts all the time, which we still provide and when the tables are turned on you , you fail to provide yours.
if you can't provide evidence of bini use of the word 'oba' in pre-1900s then by your usual logic, that must mean the oba of benin is a recent position[/quote

macof:
interesting. google is now your evidence?
you can't be asking yorubas for documented evidence for very obvious facts all the time, which we still provide and when the tables are turned on you , you fail to provide yours.
if you can't provide evidence of bini use of the word 'oba' in pre-1900s then by your usual logic, that must mean the oba of benin is a recent position

Just wait for me

TAO11:


Just to be clear on the point I’ve been making so far on this thread so I am not misconstrued:

(1) I haven’t claimed that “oba” was never used by the Binis until the 1900s.

(2) I haven’t claimed that there is no 1800s writing which uses the word “oba” arguably in relation to Benin monarchy — although none of them is yet able to provide any such writing.

See damage control, madam lecturer is already warning her fans and students ahead of time. Teacher, you are right on this occasion, no one will be so dumb to make such claims you are now disclaiming.

I can see some disappointments amongst our Igbo and Yoruba readers. You know sooner or later Benin historical documents will surface with the title Oba. I won't be surprised if you have already seen them because of your fascination with Benin history, hence this disclaimer of I didn't claim this and that.

People, I hope you have all heard her, she didn't claim or dispute that Benin had Oba in the 1800s and 1900s. She just wants us to give her the 1700s to the 1500s Benin written history to add to her archives.

You see why I advised Afam4eva not to conclude yet.

Poor ReboneSmith and macof, they must be scratching their heads now

RedboneSmith:


The topic is not who was or was not under the old Benin empire. The topic is the word oba. That's another annoying habit of low-intelligence people. When they can't prove their point, they try to change the topic.

[PS: My people (by which I believe he means the Igbo people) were never under the old Benin Empire. I'm saying this for the benefit of other readers. Ask them to bring evidence of this now and watch them run around like headless chickens.]

Abt this... Dont be so confident... Parts of present day South East was under Benin..

How do I know?

Olaudah Equaino born 1745 in his autobiography mentioned that he was born in Essaka(now isseke) which was part of the Benin kingdom
See his autobiography below... (For the use of the oba... I'm busy lately... I'll definitely get it)

PS: the work was written in the 18th century... Some of the f word u see there is actually s

Etinosa1234:


Abt this... Dont be so confident... Parts of present day South East was under Benin..

How do I know?

Olaudah Equaino born 1745 in his autobiography mentioned that he was born in Essaka(now isseke) which was part of the Benin kingdom
See his autobiography below... (For the use of the oba... I'm busy lately... I'll definitely get it)

PS: the work was written in the 18th century... Some of the f word u see there is actually s

I was expecting you people to bring up Equiano. That is you people's only reference for your claim that Benin ruled the southeast.

Never mind that some scholars believe Equiano came from present-day Delta State. Never mind that Equiano's book contains some inaccuracies (for example, he says the Kingdom of Abyssinia borders Benin), and should therefore be used as evidence with caution.

If Benin ruled in the southeast memories of it would have been preserved, the same way memories of Benin overlordship in other places have been preserved. The fact that any memory of Benin overrule in the southeast is completely absent both in Benin and in Igbo traditions says quite a lot.

TAO11:
Great to hear that you are already going in the same direction where the facts have been going so far on this thread.

Just to be clear on the point I’ve been making so far on this thread so I am not misconstrued:

(1) I haven’t claimed that “oba” was never used by the Binis until the 1900s.

(2) I haven’t claimed that there is no 1800s writing which uses the word “oba” arguably in relation to Benin monarchy — although none of them is yet able to provide any such writing.


Rather, my position is as follows for the umpteenth time:

(1) The claim of the Benin Clown-In-Chief (that there is no pre-1900 written evidence of “oba” usage for Yoruba monarchs) is ignorantly false and laughable — And I demonstrated my position with actual evidence.

(2) The shifted claim of the Benin Clown-In-Chief (that there is no pre-1900 written evidence which mentions a Yoruba monarch by name alongside the word “oba”) is also ignorantly false and laughable — And I demonstrated my position with actual evidence.

(3) The claim of the Benin Clown-In-Chief (that there exist some “600 years” old written evidence of “oba” usage for Beni monarchs) is a bogus and delusional claim.

(4) In the light of his own claims, there is no written evidence either from the 1800s, or 1700s, or 1600s, or 1500s, etc which names a Benin monarch alongside the word “oba”.

(5) In the light of his own claim, there is no written evidence either from the 1700s, or 1600s, or 1500s, etc. which uses “oba” in relation to Benin monarchy.

Having said all that, a final acid test which would in fact close and conclude this discourse for you — as to who originally owns “oba” — is to consider this from the lenses of each of the two respective languages themselves, viz. the Yoruba language and the Edo language.

From the lenses of the Yoruba language, the syllabic components of the word “ọba” are (obviously) “ọ” and “ba”.

The meaning of this base word “ba” in the Yoruba language is clear and accessible even to the average speaker — it means: to “overlord”, etc.

Its prefix “ọ“ describes the noun who performs the action conveyed by the base word. Innumerable similar examples as this abound in everyday usage.

In sum, the word ”ọba” — from the lenses of the Yoruba language — means: the “one who overlords”, or “the overlord” for short.

Notice how this meaning (via the Yoruba language lenses) fits monarchy like a glove.

Guess what! The same thing can not be said from the Edo point of view. And the reason is not far-fetched at all. A loan term can not possibly be meaningfully analyzed from the point of view of the recipient-language.

Challenge one of them to see for yourself.

cc: RedboneSmith, macof

———————-
@Afam4eva: I’m certain that you’re aware no one claims that Europeans visited Africa prior to the present and second dynasty of the Binis.

Also, I know you’re aware that the obligation to prove an assertion lies with whoever makes the said assertion.

Please share me the link or the reference to those scholars you cited that made use of oba as generic name for king 1800

Do You agree that The European made mention of the word oba to address the king of Benin

If no then wait for me

@edeyoung

Bro you don't need prove visit goggle bro[/quote]

If Google is ur source of fact then u r not bright sir..

Tao brought you extracts and u r telling us to go to Google...

If u do this in international research, u will be disqualified

samuk:
See damage control, madam lecturer is already warning her fans and students ahead of time. Teacher, you are right on this occasion, no one will be so dumb to make such claims you are now disclaiming.

I can see some disappointments amongst our Igbo and Yoruba readers. You know sooner or later Benin historical documents will surface with the title Oba. I won't be surprised if you have already seen them because of your fascination with Benin history, hence this disclaimer of I didn't claim this and that.

People, I hope you have all heard her, she didn't claim or dispute that Benin had Oba in the 1800s and 1900s. She just wants us to give her the 1700s to the 1500s Benin written history to add to her archives.

Lol! You had to cut out part of my comments (while quoting it) just so people won’t realize the actual fraud you’re about to attempt? Haha!

Well, I’d say sorry because the full comment can still be accessed if one scrolls up this same page or if one simply clicks here.

Moreover, everyone is already aware that you’re nothing but a delusional illiterate. Hopefully you too will soon realize it.

Having said that, the attached screenshot below is of one of my comments of yesterday from a prior page on this same thread, where I unequivocally clarified my points.

RedboneSmith also clarified a similar point earlier today as seen in the second attachment. And these specific gists of my argument of which you’re struggling hard to live in denial are again as follows:

(1) The point of including an 1800 written document as part of my request to you is to highlight your delusional audacity of having similarly requested same from me — Nothing more, nothing less.

However to be very emphatic, there is no writing from the 1800s which mentions any Benin monarch by name, and with the description “Oba”; neither is there any 1800s writing (to the best of my knowledge) which uses “oba” clearly and unequivocally in relation to Benin kingdom, or any other identifiable name for the city or kingdom.

Moreover, I provided my evidence as you requested it (even though I didn’t have to provide it, as I never began by making any such claim as to warrant a pre-1900 document as my burden of proof).

As always, my deciding evidence for conclusively closing the argument of who originally owns the word “oba” is (and will always be) the linguistic evidence, since language goes farther back in time than writing.

I have adduced this linguistic argument within one of my comments above, and it is exclusively in red fonts. Click here for a quick access.

It is you, the Clown-In-Chief, who always ignorantly demand nothing but written evidence for proof, as if historians consider that to be the only type of historical evidence — historians don’t even regard it as absolute evidence to even begin with.

Yet, it is the same you who, ironically, are yet to provide any such written evidence even as we speak despite making such grandiose claim. Now sharrrrAp and crawl back in reverse mode into your dirty hole.


(2) Further to my point (1) above which was about the 1800s; the rationale for requesting you to provide such written evidence as from the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc. is because of your delusional claim of the existence of such evidence — some of which you claim go to as far back as “600 years” ago.

In other words, you were simply requested to provide evidence for an assertion you have made — not so that I can archive what doesn’t even exist anywhere to begin with.

In others words, onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat — that is; the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not on the person who denies (or questions) the claim.

And again, you are yet to provide the evidence for this claim you made (and every other allied-claim) even as we speak — and that’s despite the earlier attempted fraud of your vice-clown.

Now crawl back forever into your dirty hole from where you had escaped.

cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith

RedboneSmith:


I was expecting you people to bring up Equiano. That is you people's only reference for your claim that Benin ruled the southeast.

Never mind that some scholars believe Equiano came from present-day Delta State. Never mind that Equiano's book contains some inaccuracies (for example, he says the Kingdom of Abyssinia borders Benin), and should therefore be used as evidence with caution.

If Benin ruled in the southeast memories of it would have been preserved, the same way memories of Benin overlordship in other places have been preserved. The fact that any memory of Benin overrule in the southeast is completely absent both in Benin and in Igbo traditions says quite a lot.

Equiano is one of the prides of Africa, he was one of the very first African to author an autobiography in the late 1700s, his association with the Igbo race should be a thing of pride.

You don't have to deny him because he said the Igbo people were under old Benin empire in the 1700s. If it helps, it wasn't only the Igbos that Benin lord it over.

RedboneSmith:


1)I was expecting you people to bring up Equiano. That is you people's only reference for your claim that Benin ruled the southeast.

2)Never mind that some scholars believe Equiano came from present-day Delta State. Never mind that Equiano's book contains some inaccuracies (for example, he says the Kingdom of Abyssinia borders Benin), and should therefore be used as evidence with caution.

3)If Benin ruled in the southeast memories of it would have been preserved, the same way memories of Benin overlordship in other places have been preserved.The fact that any memory of Benin overrule in the southeast is completely absent both in Benin and in Igbo traditions says quite a lot.

Lol

1)Unfortunately that’s not the only reference . Your people also wrote stories about Benin influences on the south east
Below is a link from an Igbo website that says ezechima came from Benin
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ukpuru.tumblr.com/post/124264146737/amp
This is another work done by an Igbo historian stating the same
Also azikiwe traced his lineage to Benin... all their stories are coincidentally almost alike

There are many more that I could post for u.

2)Lol.. u want to compare personal knowledge or lemme say knowledge abt his own early life to the one of borders and locations of kingdoms. That he made the mistake in what borders the Benin kingdom doesn’t mean that the entire story is false especially given that there were less info abt other parts of the world as at that period... U can’t say his own biography is incorrect all because he made a mistake in locations of a kingdom. Thats plain stupidity .. Even as at now, there are some Nigerians who think America is located in Europe... but if they write their biography, will u trash it all because they made a mistake on what they’re less informed or will u saying they are lying in their biography all because they made a mistake there?

Also I havent seen any scholar claim that essaka was in delta instead.. all claim that the essaka(isseke) is a town in anambra state

3)There are many evidences abt that like the four days a week and ur market days but present political awareness have led some igbos to overturn it to claim Igbo influence over benin when it was otherwise

Thanks

scholes0:


Ohhh okay.
They have a mother tongue called Oko.

They are not exactly Yorubas though. If they eventually become Yoruba it will be by assimilation and not foundational ethnic affinity.... That process is already complete or near complete in some closer villages like Ikakumo and Ayanran in northern Edo (as an example)

They have not become Yoruba at any point in time. They are not even moving close to becoming or being assimilated into Yoruba race. They must have been Yoruba at a particular period. One peculiar things that all Yoruba share in common, irrespective of the dialectical variation, differences in environment etc is common ancestry (all admitting that they came from Ife). If originating from Ife makes people to be categorised as Yoruba, Ogori people too may be considered Yoruba. From what I read, the Ogori people confirmed and admitted coming from Ife and that accounts for why they bear Yoruba names and have in place culture and tradition that are similar and in some cases the same with that of the Yorubas.
Their current identity marked by language (which is a mixture of Yoruba dialect and other neighboring languages) and other peculiar things must have been shaped by their current environment.

TAO11:


You had to cut out part of my comments which you’re quoting here just so people won’t see the actual gist which you wanna twist? Haha!

Everyone is already beginning to realize that you’re a delusional illiterate. Hopefully you too will soon realize it.

Having said that, the attached screenshot below is from my comment yesterday on this same thread where I unequivocally made my position clear.

RedboneSmith also clarified the same point earlier today as seen in the second attachment.

And the specific gists about which you’re struggling hard to live in denial are as follows:

(1) The point of including an 1800 written document as part of my request to you is to highlight your delusional audacity of having similarly requested same from me — Nothing more, nothing less.

However to be emphatic, there is no writing from the 1800 which names a Benin monarch alongside the prefix “oba”, neither is there any 1800 writing which uses “oba” clearly, specifically, and unequivocally in relation to Benin kingdom.

Moreover, I provided my evidence as you requested (even though I didn’t have to — as I didn’t begin with any such specific claim of ‘written document’). It is you the, Clown-In-Chief who are yet to provide any such evidence even as we speak despite making such grandiose claim. Now sharrrrap and crawl back into your whole in reverse mode!


(2) The point of requesting you to provide such a written evidence from the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc. is because of your delusional claim of having such written evidence some of which you claim go back as far as 600 years ago.

In other words, you were requested to provide evidence for an assertion you made — not so that I can archive what doesn’t even exist anywhere to begin with.

Again, you are yet to provide the evidence for your claim even as we speak and despite the earlier attempted fraud of your vice-clown. Again crawl back into your dirty hole from where you had escaped.

cc: @Afam4eva, @macof, @RedboneSmith

I have looked at your conversation with macof, you guys clearly had evidence that the Benin monarchs were known as Oba in the 1800s but decided to hide it from your audience, this is disingenuous on your part, meanwhile Afam4eva was beginning to lean towards your deception, credit to you that you quickly disabused his mind.

The average Benin person is taught his/her history from birth and not necessarily interested in seeking documented proofs of what he/she already knows. Although we are aware of European archives of Benin history dating back to the 1400s, we don't need anyone to tell us the title of our Oba. Thanks to people like you that made us realised that we should perhaps take our history more seriously. I am not sure if the institute of Benin studies even have translated copies of the European achieves of Benin history. Truth be told, whether one likes you or not, I actually like the amount of efforts Yoruba like yourself puts into studying the Benin history that the average Benin person takes for granted.

Haven't said these, we must be vigilant against you guys twisting what you have read in your favour like you guys are trying to do with the Benin/Ife connection.

The Benin don't see these debates has competition with the Yoruba but just being protective against you guys using your research of Benin history to deceive unsuspecting Nigerians who are seeking for genuine historical accounts because Nigeria no longer teaches history in schools and most modern day Nigerians know very little about their history and come to nairaland for historical accounts.

The Benin and the Yoruba seems to be supplying all the lectures and entertainments. This thread is supposed to be an Ikwerre thread, see how it has become Benin and Yoruba historical battleground. This thread wouldn't have probably gone beyond one page.

samuk:
[s]I have looked at your conversation with macof, you guys clearly had evidence that the Benin monarchs were known as Oba in the 1800s but decided to hide it from your audience, this is disingenuous on your part, meanwhile Afam4eva was beginning to lean towards your deception, credit to you that you quickly disabused his mind.

The average Benin person is taught his/her history from birth and not necessarily interested in seeking documented proofs of what he/she already knows. Although we are aware of European archives of Benin history dating back to the 1400s, we don't need anyone to tell us the title of our Oba. Thanks to people like you that made us realised that we should perhaps take our history more seriously. I am not sure if the institute of Benin studies even have translated copies of the European achieves of Benin history. Truth be told, whether one likes you or not, I actually like the amount of efforts Yoruba like yourself puts into studying the Benin history that the average Benin person takes for granted.

Haven't said these, we must be vigilant against you guys twisting what you have read in your favour like you guys are trying to do with the Benin/Ife connection.

The Benin don't see these debates has competition with the Yoruba but just being protective against you guys using your research of Benin history to deceive unsuspecting Nigerians who are seeking for genuine historical accounts because Nigeria no longer teaches history in schools and most modern day Nigerians know very little about their history and come to nairaland for historical accounts.

The Benin and the Yoruba seems to be supplying all the lectures and entertainments. This thread is supposed to be an Ikwerre thread, see how it has become Benin and Yoruba historical battleground. This thread wouldn't have probably gone beyond one page.[/s]

Enough of the cunning imbecilic distractions. Face your burden below:

(1) Where is the evidence for your claim that written evidence exists going back “600 years” ago showing the use of “oba” in relation to Benin monarchy??

(2) Your requested 1800s written evidence from Yoruba has been provided.

Now don’t be a hypocrite in addition to being an illiterate. You have to be man enough to meet the standard which you yourself have set.

Provide us an 1800s written document from Benin — before then substantiating your own claim of “600 years” ago.

We are waiting!
cc: Afam4eva, RedboneSmith, macof

———————
PS: Lest I forget the Ife-Benin Connection (which you’re dead-scared of), refer to the attached screenshot of an archaeological evidence of a ‘bronze’ plaque depicting your Oba. It was recovered from an old slave-quarters at Ife.

TAO11:
Enough of the cunning distractions. Face your burden below:

(1) Where is the evidence for your claim that written evidence exists going back “600 years” ago showing the use of “oba” in relation to Benin monarchy??

(2) Your requested 1800s written evidence from Yoruba has been provided.

Now don’t be a hypocrite in addition to being an illiterate. You have to be man enough to meet the standard which you yourself have set.

Provide us an 1800s written document from Benin — before then substantiating your own claim of “600 years” ago.

We are waiting!

———————
PS: Lest I forget the Ife-Benin Connection (which you’re dead-scared of), refer to the attached screenshot of an archaeological evidence of a ‘bronze’ plaque depicting your Oba. It was recovered from an old slave-quarters at Ife.

Anyone that thinks the Yoruba will give up on the Benin/Ife connection is deluding himself because take Benin out of Yoruba history what else will be left in Yoruba classical history, Benin his the classics in Yoruba history.

You are actually the one that inadvertently supply someone like me one of your usual cut and paste references that completely demolished the Benin/Ife connection.

Other than the disputed oral history between Benin and Yoruba, there is no written historical evidence to back up the Benin/Ife connection.

samuk:
[s]Anyone that thinks the Yoruba will give up on the Benin/Ife connection is deluding himself because take Benin out of Yoruba history what else will be left in Yoruba classical history, Benin his the classics in Yoruba history.

You are actually the one that inadvertently supply someone like me one of your usual cut and paste references that completely demolished the Benin/Ife connection.

Other than the disputed oral history between Benin and Yoruba, there is no written historical evidence to back up the Benin/Ife connection.[/s]

DISTRACTIVE SUPER STORIES!! Face your burden below:

(1) Where is the evidence for your claim that written evidence exists going back “600 years” ago showing the use of “oba” in relation to Benin monarchy??

(2) Your requested 1800s written evidence from Yoruba has been provided.

Now don’t be a hypocrite in addition to being an illiterate. You have to be man enough to meet the standard which you yourself have set.

Provide us an 1800s written document from Benin — before then substantiating your own claim of “600 years” ago.

We are waiting!
cc: Afam4eva

———————
PS: Lest I forget the Ife-Benin Connection (which you’re dead-scared of), refer to the attached screenshot of an archaeological evidence of a ‘bronze’ plaque depicting your Oba. It was recovered from an old slave-quarters at Ife.

Any right thinking Bini would for once have asked himself what his king was doing in ancient Ife’s archaeological deposit. But unfortunately, I ain’t dealing with a right-thinking person at the moment.

TAO11:
The word used by other Edo-speaking monarch’s for “king” all appear to be around the Edo root-word “ogie” — “king”.

Many word deriving from this word are used by the Edos and allied-people for “king” till date. Consider the following examples:

(1) “Ogiso” (from: “ogie-iso” — meaning: the “king from the sky” ).

Historically, this was the epithet used by the Edo supreme rulers in their first dynasty prior to their shift and adoption of “Oba” from the beginning of their second dynasty.


(2) “Ogiamien” (“the king of the [Edo] country” ).

Historically, this was the epithet used by the Edo regents during the intermediate period (interregnum) between the first dynasty and the second dynasty.

Till date, the “Ogiamien” royal family line still survives in Benin. They insist, till date, that the present ruling royal family of Benin (i.e. “Oba” ) is a foreign non-Bini lineage all the way from Ife.

(3) “Ogiame” (from “ogie-ame“ — meaning: the “king over the waters” ).

Till date, the personal names of Itsekiri kings are prefixed by the word “ogiame” by virtue of their connection to the monarchy of Benin.

(4) The following are some other derived words from “ogie” used by Edo-related monarchies (such as Urhobo, et al.) around today’s South-South Nigeria: “Enogie”, “Ovie”, “Orodje”, et al.

—————
And I’m certain that you’re aware that I never claimed anywhere that Europeans visited Africa prior to the second Benin dynasty. Lol.

In Owan part of Edo North they use “Oje” While others still use “Ojie”

Last names like

Aidenoje/gie//je
Eidenoje/jie/gie
Aidelogie/jie/je

Can be found all over Edo... meaning you do not challenge the KING. The target word here being King.


All buttressing the points we are trying to make here.

Once you start understanding Edo languages and traditions - it is just actually quite easy to bust these peoples lies. The problem is usually that most Yorubas don’t understand the inner working of Edo land and their language- but majority of them do have some knowledge of ours, hence most times it is easy for them to weave a backstory by looking for loopholes in Yoruba oral traditions.

I call it “afterthought“ or “retrospective history”.. They’ve become actually quite good at it.

As far as Bini miscreant logic always goes, if there is no documented evidence it does not exist. Therefore absence of pre-1900s documentation of Bini use of the word "oba" means..The King of Benin only recently became known as Ọba of Benin after copying the Yorubas

Please argue with your Google search board not me

This will really pepper them

scholes0:


In Owan part of Edo North they use “Oje” While others still use “Ojie”

Last names like

Aidenoje/gie//je
Eidenoje/jie/gie
Aidelogie/jie/je

Can be found all over Edo... meaning you do not challenge the KING. The target word here being King.


All buttressing the points we are trying to make here.

Once you start understanding Edo languages and traditions - it is just actually quite easy to bust these peoples lies. The problem is usually that most Yorubas don’t understand the inner working of Edo land and their language- but majority of them do have some knowledge of ours, hence most times it is easy for them to weave a backstory by looking for loopholes in Yoruba oral traditions.

I call it “afterthought“ or “retrospective history”.. They’ve become actually quite good at it.

Great inputs!

@Afam4eva, you may also find this useful in addition to my specific replies to your remark and your question.

After considering those comments carefully, make sure to reach out out if you’ve got further questions.

scholes0:


In Owan part of Edo North they use “Oje” While others still use “Ojie”

Last names like

Aidenoje/gie//je
Eidenoje/jie/gie
Aidelogie/jie/je

Can be found all over Edo... meaning you do not challenge the KING. The target word here being King.


All buttressing the points we are trying to make here.

Once you start understanding Edo languages and traditions - it is just actually quite easy to bust these peoples lies. The problem is usually that most Yorubas don’t understand the inner working of Edo land and their language- but majority of them do have some knowledge of ours, hence most times it is easy for them to weave a backstory by looking for loopholes in Yoruba oral traditions.

I call it “afterthought“ or “retrospective history”.. They’ve become actually quite good at it.

The thing is many of their elders know these things but they lie to the young ones and send them out to propagate nonsense. The average Bini youth doesn't even know his own history and traditions but dives into arguments for the sole purpose of dragging larger ethnicities like the Ijaw, Igbo and Yoruba. The inferiority complex is so sickening
They have destroyed the once brotherly relationship Yoruba shared with them

macof:
As far as Bini miscreant logic always goes, if there is no documented evidence it does not exist. Therefore absence of pre-1900s documentation of Bini use of the word "oba" means..The King of Benin only recently became known as Ọba of Benin after copying the Yorubas

Please argue with your Google search board not me

This will really pepper them

As in ehn. And I always wonder if written account is the only source of historical information in the experts’ view.

In fact, not only is it NOT the only source, it may be misleading at other times if not carefully examined, and couched with professional caution..

But in any case, these clowns haven’t provided any written evidence whatsoever — which is ironic, since that is their supposedly sole and infallible standard of historical evidence which they always demand from others.

Another annoying cliche they often bring forth is the statement: Show me an eyewitness written account of Oduduwa.

And I’d silently be like: Could it be real that a human being is this dumb? Lol!

You don’t even have an eYeWiTnEss WrItTtEn AcCoUnT of your Eweka 1, or your Ewuare 1 among others.

Yet they exist according to you (and of course me) — in fact, they are your greatests.

So, with what historical standard did y’all verify and confirm their actual existence?

Delusion is real o my brother.

scholes0:


In Owan part of Edo North they use “Oje” While others still use “Ojie”

Last names like

Aidenoje/gie//je
Eidenoje/jie/gie
Aidelogie/jie/je

Can be found all over Edo... meaning you do not challenge the KING. The target word here being King.


All buttressing the points we are trying to make here.

Once you start understanding Edo languages and traditions - it is just actually quite easy to bust these peoples lies. The problem is usually that most Yorubas don’t understand the inner working of Edo land and their language- but majority of them do have some knowledge of ours, hence most times it is easy for them to weave a backstory by looking for loopholes in Yoruba oral traditions.

I call it “afterthought“ or “retrospective history”.. They’ve become actually quite good at it.

On another note, @AjaanaOka once brought up the theory that "Ogie", "Ovie", "Oje" "Oye" are all cognates that trace back to Proto-YEAI speakers who by the way didn't have Kings but nobles. He included the igbo "Eze" to this family of related words too

@RedboneSmith @Afam4eva

Hi @Afam4eva, @macof, and @RedboneSmith:

The information I’m about to share below is on one hand an enlightening insight into a remark of possibility which I had made earlier on.

On another hand, it would serve as a source of despair and depression to our Benin clown-in-chiefs who may have thought that they had some hope of finding the evidence required to meet the unwarranted burden of proof which they’ve placed on themselves.

While I was explicitly clarifying my position earlier on, I did make an exegetic remark of possibility along the following lines that:

I personally know of a writing from the 1800s which shows the word “oba” in such a context that one MAY POSSIBLY contend that the kingdom associated with this “oba” is Benin — even though the kingdom named in this writing is neither “Benin” nor any of its different alternative renderings/names.

On a closer look at the relevant text of this 19th century writing, and in the light of an allied text found in a different and more early 19th century writing; the former position — that “one MAY POSSIBLY” take the named kingdom to be Benin — can no longer be sustained.

The possibility (of interpreting the named kingdom as “Benin” ) dissipates instantaneously in the light of the aforementioned insights.

In fact, the understanding which becomes palpably perceptible from examining the named kingdom in the light of the information found in the more early text is that: not only is the said kingdom NOT Benin, it is in fact one of the kingdoms of the Yorubas.

So, on this note the quite relaxed burden which I have been consistently and repeatedly reiterating to our Benin clown-in-chiefs becomes even more stringent going forward, as follows:

You clowns must provide us with any writing (from the 1800s, the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc.) which shows the word “oba” in relation to the Benin monarchy.

Or to be even more specific, any writing (from the 1800s, the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc.) which names a Benin monarch and describes him as “Oba”.

Peace!

samuk:


I have looked at your conversation with macof, you guys clearly had evidence that the Benin monarchs were known as Oba in the 1800s but decided to hide it from your audience, this is disingenuous on your part, meanwhile Afam4eva was beginning to lean towards your deception, credit to you that you quickly disabused his mind.

The average Benin person is taught his/her history from birth and not necessarily interested in seeking documented proofs of what he/she already knows. Although we are aware of European archives of Benin history dating back to the 1400s, we don't need anyone to tell us the title of our Oba. Thanks to people like you that made us realised that we should perhaps take our history more seriously. I am not sure if the institute of Benin studies even have translated copies of the European achieves of Benin history. Truth be told, whether one likes you or not, I actually like the amount of efforts Yoruba like yourself puts into studying the Benin history that the average Benin person takes for granted.

Haven't said these, we must be vigilant against you guys twisting what you have read in your favour like you guys are trying to do with the Benin/Ife connection.

The Benin don't see these debates has competition with the Yoruba but just being protective against you guys using your research of Benin history to deceive unsuspecting Nigerians who are seeking for genuine historical accounts because Nigeria no longer teaches history in schools and most modern day Nigerians know very little about their history and come to nairaland for historical accounts.

The Benin and the Yoruba seems to be supplying all the lectures and entertainments. This thread is supposed to be an Ikwerre thread, see how it has become Benin and Yoruba historical battleground. This thread wouldn't have probably gone beyond one page.

The bolded is wrong


And you sound like you're emotionally down here

Bro manup and go do fucking research and not this

You sounded like you were crying while writing this

TAO11:
As in ehn. And I always wonder if written account is the only source of historical information in the experts’ view.

In fact, not only is it NOT the only source, it may be misleading at other times if not carefully examined, applied and couched with professional caution..

But in any case, these clowns haven’t provided any written evidence whatsoever — which is ironic, since that is their supposedly sole and infallible standard of historical evidence which they always demand from others.

Another annoying cliche they often bring forth is the statement: Show me an eyewitness written account of Oduduwa.

And I’d silently be like: Could it be real that a human being is this dumb? Lol!

You don’t even have an eYeWiTnEss WrItTtEn AcCoUnT of your Eweka 1, or your Ewuare 1 among others.

Yet they exist according to you (and of course me) — in fact, they are your greatests.

So, with what historical standard did y’all verify and confirm their actual existence?

Delusion is real o my brother.

In all your write up you have tried to be clever by half by not saying that Benin didn't use oba between 1485 till date because you know such claims will destroy your Benin/Ife connection that was supposed to have started in the 1100s.

Unlike your compatriots who are not so tactical, you have been careful not to cause too much damage that will later affect Yoruba interests in Benin history because Yoruba history heavily rely on Benin history. You know that even if there are no documented evidence to show that Benin used Oba pre-1800s it doesn't in anyway diminished Benin historical achievements pre-1800s, it doesn't mean that most parts of Yoruba and Lagos weren't under the control of old Benin empire, it just means that there was no relationship between Benin and Ife before 1800s, which will blow your cherished Benin/Ife connection out of the water.

You have cleverly danced around the other Edo titles for traditional rulers but haven't actually make the claim that that was what Oba of Benin was known as between 1485 when the European visited to 1800s.

You know you can't eat your cake and have it, push it further that Benin didn't use Oba pre-1800s, your Benin/Ife 12th century relationship will be out of the window which will confined Yoruba history to little earlier than 1800s. Unless you want to tell us that Oranmiyan came to Benin in late 1100s only for Benin to adopt the Oba title 700 years later in the 1800s as macof seems to be claiming.

The Benin oba title which you share with Benin is your only gateway to accessing Benin history by claiming it as yours because you know you can hoodwink a lot of your followers on nairaland who can't ask themselves the simple question of how an empire whose written history began in 1400s and destroyed by the British in 1897, will suddenly turns around to adopt the title of the traditional rulers of her former subjects. What title did they use pre-1800s. You know a lot of Nigeria are not this inquisitive, so you chum out garbage to try to hoodwink and confuse them.

It's actually more in your interest that we dig out something otherwise Benin/Ife relationship can no longer be promoted by you guys as being earlier than the 1800s.

samuk:
[s]In all your write up you have tried to be clever be half by not saying that Benin didn't use oba between 1485 till date because you know such claims will destroy your Benin/Ife connection that was supposed to have started in the 1100s.

Unlike your compatriots who are not so tactical, you have been careful not to cause too much damage that will later affect Yoruba interests in Benin history because Yoruba history heavily rely on Benin history. You know that even if there are no documented evidence to show that Benin used Oba pre-1800s it doesn't in anyway diminished Benin historical achievements pre-1800s, it doesn't mean that most parts of Yoruba and Lagos weren't under the control of old Benin empire, it just means that there was no relationship between Benin and Ife before 1800s, which will blow your cherished Benin/Ife connection out of the water.

You have cleverly danced around the other Edo titles for traditional rulers but haven't actually make the claim that that was what Oba of Benin was known as between 1485 when the European visited to 1800s.

You know you can't eat your cake and have it, push it further that Benin didn't use Oba pre-1800s, your Benin/Ife 12th century relationship will out of the window which will confined Yoruba history to little earlier than 1800s. Unless you want to tell us that Oranmiyan came to Benin in late 1100s only for Benin to adopt the Oba title 700 years later in the 1800s as macof seems to be claiming.[/s]

Given the fact that unlike you I ain’t a dummy, I wouldn’t therefore commit the “argumentum ex silentio” logical fallacy —assuming you know what that means in the first place.

It is you who made written evidence as your be all and end all, and I have provided you with the type of evidence you requested (even though I am not obliged to provide that type of evidence) — thus debunking your delusion on the Yoruba use of “oba”.

So, save the distractive tactic for another day. Today, you are obliged to live up to your own set standard by providing the written evidence as requested below:

Provide us with any writing (from the 1800s, the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc.) which shows the word “oba” in relation to the Benin monarchy.

Or to be even more specific, any writing (from the 1800s, the 1700s, the 1600s, the 1500s, or the 1400s, etc.) which names a Benin monarch and describes him as “Oba”.

cc: Adam4eva
———————
PS: I am glad that your vice Benin Clown-In-Chief (i.e. gregyboy AKA Edeyoung) noticed your dishonest about-face and then smacked your dry ass for being such a little liar.

This may be seen in the attached screenshot below:

Etinosa1234:


Lol

1)Unfortunately that’s not the only reference . Your people also wrote stories about Benin influences on the south east
Below is a link from an Igbo website that says ezechima came from Benin
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ukpuru.tumblr.com/post/124264146737/amp
This is another [url]https://books.google.com.ng/books?id=sWwuAQAAIAAJ&q=Benin&source=gbs_word_cloud_r&cad=3done[b]work[/b][/url] done by an Igbo historian stating the same
Also azikiwe traced his lineage to Benin... all their stories are coincidentally almost alike

There are many more that I could post for u.

2)Lol.. u want to compare personal knowledge or lemme say knowledge abt his own early life to the one of borders and locations of kingdoms. That he made the mistake in what borders the Benin kingdom doesn’t mean that the entire story is false especially given that there were less info abt other parts of the world as at that period... but u can’t trash his own biography all because he made a mistake in locations of a kingdom... Even as at now, there are some Nigerians who think America is located in Europe... but if they write their biography, will u trash it all because they made a mistake on what they’re less informed or will u saying they are lying in their biography all because they made a mistake there?

Also I havent seen any scholar claim that essaka was in delta instead.. all claim that the essaka(isseke) is a town in anambra state

3)There are many evidences abt that like the four days a week and ur market days but present political awareness have led some igbos to overturn it to claim Igbo influence over benin when it was otherwise

Thanks

Mr bonesmith is right. it is cheer mischievous that someone will even think that any history existed between igbos and bini. none existted and none documented

BT take a look at yorubas and see so much documented history with bini.


Stop spreading false histories, let us focus on the bini-yoruba going on with facts.

Etinosa1234:


[s]Abt this... Dont be so confident... Parts of present day South East was under Benin..

How do I know?

Olaudah Equaino born 1745 in his autobiography mentioned that he was born in Essaka(now isseke) which was part of the Benin kingdom
See his autobiography below... (For the use of the oba... I'm busy lately... I'll definitely get it)

PS: the work was written in the 18th century... Some of the f word u see there is actually s[/s]

pure fallacy

Imagine such history of an underage boy u are using

Stop all these fallacy

samuk:


The dictionary went further to say the origin of the word is Edo.

If they are not up to mischief, how is it possible that Benin whose written history began in the 1400s is the one that will copy the word Oba from Yoruba whose written history began in the 1800s. It's a good thing the dictionary is not written by Nigerians. Wonder shall never end.

What you are trying to tell us now is that the world OBA for king came into existence when European started jotting one or two things down about Benin??....CAPITAL NO far from it.

The world OBA for king had existed for centuries in Yoruba language, and it have been loan to (ubini) benin many years ago before the Europeans ever had the thoughts of developing navigation,not to talk of coming to africa