coogar:

arsenal have to sell. . . forget keeping the squad together. you didn't make enough prize-money to afford that luxury.

Ofcourse we'l sell. Almunia, Denilson and one of Bendtner/Chamakh plus the £43 million 'they say' we have for this season is more than enough to being in the players needed.

will blackburn sell their captain?

Well according to Samba, they were willing to sell in January. Even though I don't know the full story, this is another area I blame Arsene's stubborness. In January he clearly told us he would bring in someone (now we know it was Samba he had in mind) if Vermaellen didn't recover on time from his injury. Only he knows why he changed his mind even though at that point, many had written off the contributions of Squillaci to that team.

sell chamakh? arsene wenger had to wait for this lad to run up his contract so he can get him for free. i doubt chamakh will be sold.

Well one of Chamakh or Bendtner. Truth is if we don't bring in a striker, then none of them should be sold.

cattermole? joey barton?

I think Scott Parker would be my first choice.

aribisala0:

sometimes a manager's intuition can determine outcome in
a game. it is hard to find examples of wenger doing this.

when a team squanders a 4-0 lead we need to ask questions of the manager sometimes that may be very bad luck but in the whole premiership this last season only arsenal were capable of that.

has arsene lost his mojo?

At what point in time did Arsene had this mojo to be called a great coach?

proudly9ja:

That's because SAF is not as stubborn as Arsene.

I think Arsene can deliver results + good football given the right set of players. His short coming is his stubborness. SAF knows when and where he is short and he does something about it. Arsene is usually too stubborn to admit he is wrong. For the past 4 -5 seasons, Arsenal has always been one or two players short of delivering the goods. Usually everyone sees this , except Arsene.

Look at how long he tormented us with Almunia and Denilson before finally realising that those two are not good enough for Arsenal?

Thats making excuses, What has stubborness go to do with lack of basic coaching skills and ability to read games

And what are your hypotheses based on? Do you think Arsene can win the CL in the next 15yrs?

I personally believe that at least 5-10 coaches with the same set of players at Arsenal would not have been 7yrs trophyless

Arsene is below average and those excuse about spending, young team, experienced players, bad luck etc are just an excuse to color his inadequacies

As a starting point almost all Arsenal players are Internationals for their countries so where does the experience/inexperience talk come from?

dayokanu:


Thats making excuses, What has stubborness go to do with lack of basic coaching skills and ability to read games

And what are your hypotheses based on? Do you think Arsene can win the CL in the next 15yrs?

I personally believe that at least 5-10 coaches with the same set of players at Arsenal would not have been 7yrs trophyless

Arsene is below average and those excuse about spending, young team, experienced players, bad luck etc are just an excuse to color his inadequacies

As a starting point almost all Arsenal players are Internationals for their countries so where does the experience/inexperience talk come from?

Well I'm willing to give him benefit of doubt and asume his problem is his stubborness.
AW changed two policies last season. First he moved from using youth players in the CC and we almost won it. Next he brought in 'matured' players against his usual practice and in the case of Kos and Squill, it paid off when we lost Verm and Djorou (forget the quality of the two signings but in seasons past, we would prolly have moved Song to CB or brought in a youth player).

I believe that if the rumours we are hearing is true as per Samba and Gervinho, then maybe he is totally reborn and if that is the case, I am willing to give him one more season.

proudly9ja:

Well I'm willing to give him benefit of doubt and asume his problem is his stubborness.
AW changed two policies last season. First he moved from using youth players in the CC and we almost won it. Next he brought in 'matured' players against his usual practice and in the case of Kos and Squill, it paid off when we lost Verm and Djorou (forget the quality of the two signings but in seasons past, we would prolly have moved Song to CB or brought in a youth player).

I believe that if the rumours we are hearing is true as per Samba and Gervinho, then maybe he is totally reborn and if that is the case, I am willing to give him one more season.

What does this benefit of doubt stem from? His antecedents doesnt inspire confidence either.

So you too know that the experienced players crap is not valid cos he has them he only cant coach them to win.

Even if he gets Gervinho, Hazard, Samba and Zidane he still wont win anything(League or CL)

nothing wrong in relying on youth if they are the right quality but not bendtner,denilson,diaby who are aston villa material.  messi rooney C.ronaldo bale are all young players
the other thing is most first team players are not under pressure for their places compare with the squad of bergkamp,kanu anelka, henry wiltord  lundberg pires edu vieira  petite parlour gilberto parlour etc

The benefit of doubt stems from the fact that I don't see anyone out there who can work with our budget and deliver better results asides those already coaching one team or another and I am not prepared to go another period of 'transition'

aribisala0:

nothing wrong in relying on youth if they are the right quality but not bendtner,denilson,diaby who are aston villa material.  messi rooney C.ronaldo bale are all young players
the other thing is most first team players are not under pressure for their places compare with the squad of bergkamp,kanu anelka, henry wiltord  lundberg pires edu vieira  petite parlour gilberto parlour etc

The problem with youth is that its hard to know how they will turn out. Some live up to promise and others don't. When I used to watch Denilson in the CC team years back, totally believed we already had a successor to Cesc but see how he turned out?
Bendtner was and is still good. His attitude is his problem. Bale and Walcott played for the same Southampton team. In fact, Spurs almost sold Bale but see how he turned out.

Arsene's problem is that he dismantled his team too quickly relying too much in his young players. Unfortunately, the so called 'experienced' hands he has brought have not helped his cause. Gallas, Silvestre, Squillaci have done nothing to help improve the area the team lacks.

I agree with the competition thing. I believe this also boils down to his player management skills (or lack of). I think he doesn't like displeasing his players. He started benching Kolo (and eventually sold him) when Gallas complained about not being able to play with Kolo. Sold off Ade for flirting with 'Beyonce' Milan when it was obvious we would be a striker short without Ade.

proudly9ja:

The benefit of doubt stems from the fact that I don't see anyone out there who can work with our budget and deliver better results asides those already coaching one team or another and I am not prepared to go another period of 'transition'

Thats a very false statement

There are a million coaches out there. This Wenger you are talking about wasnt he recruited from the Japanese league? One would have thought you are talking about a Rinus Michel who has a track record of success not some mediocre coach

Which budget did Mourinho work with to win the CL in Porto,

What budget did Louis van Gaal work with to win the CL in Ajax,

I gave you the team roster that won the CL for Liverpool, What was the purchase cost of those players,

Which budget did Deschamps work with to get to the CL finals,

The current Porto coach is barely 33 and he has won a Continental trophy some Wenger CAN"T win

You are not prepared to go into another transition with a batter coach but would rather stay with a failed coach after 15yrs and 6yrs of trophylessness?

Even AW knows he is stubborn. This was what he said some years back:

“Gerard is an open-minded and passionate man. I am the opposite: stubborn and stupid. But sometimes stupid behaviour makes you win.”

dayokanu:

Thats a very false statement

There are a million coaches out there. This Wenger you are talking about wasnt he recruited from the Japanese league? One would have thought you are talking about a Rinus Michel who has a track record of success not some mediocre coach

Which budget did Mourinho work with to win the CL in Porto,

What budget did Louis van Gaal work with to win the CL in Ajax,

I gave you the team roster that won the CL for Liverpool, What was the purchase cost of those players,

Which budget did Deschamps work with to get to the CL finals,

The current Porto coach is barely 33 and he has won a Continental trophy some Wenger CAN"T win

You are not prepared to go into another transition with a batter coach but would rather stay with a failed coach after 15yrs and 6yrs of trophylessness?

Before AW joined Arsenal, we won some CUP trophies and United was king of England. If AW didn't win the EPL in his first two seasons it would not have been a disaster.
This time the case is different. He has set a standard for himself and whoever will come to take his place?

Of all the names you called, only Mour is worth mentioning. You have forgotten Porto DROPPED from the CL in a group that also had Arsenal? If Arsenal drops from the group stages of the CL under AW, it would be a disaster!

Deschamp's qualified his team for the CL and that's an achievement?

The Louis Van Gaal case is almost the same thing happening at Barca now. He benefitted from a well run youth system. Van der saar, Kluivert, Bergkamp, Seedorf, etc were all from that system and they had played together for years before eventually becoming the force that won the Champ's Lge. Maybe you don't know Van Gaal was at Ajax for 5 years before he won the CL with that team. Even he didn't overlook the effect of experienced players like AW has done. He had Danny Blind, Rijkaard and De Boer brothers in that team. How come he hasn't replicated the feat at any other club since then?

Even Mour with all the money he has spent at Chelsea and Madrid, why hasn't he won the CL since he left Porto?

Thing is, we may bring in a new coach and he may deliver better results but then again, he may fail woefully. If there's anything I don't want. its us replacing coaches like Chelsea/Liverpool have been doing. That's why I'm willing to give AW one more season and that's only because I see signs that he is slowly swallowing his pride.

@ proudly9ja.
Listen to  dayokanu. You may learn a lot cos I assume you are a relatively new Arsenal fan to say that you dont think there is a coach out there that can work with our budget and still deliver. Really?

There should be no benfit of doubt cos we have given him enough (why i say you are new to the club).

Wenger is at best a good talent spotter and exceptional economist but that's where the buck stops. I remember I was mad when Liverpool last won the Champ lg cos I asked how Cisse, Baros, Smicer, Finan, Dudek were better than the 'Invincibles'? Still beats me to this day. Wenger just doesnt cut it when the sh.i.t. hits the fan

dayokanu:

Thats a very false statement

There are a million coaches out there. This Wenger you are talking about wasnt he recruited from the Japanese league? One would have thought you are talking about a Rinus Michel who has a track record of success not some mediocre coach

Which budget did Mourinho work with to win the CL in Porto,

What budget did Louis van Gaal work with to win the CL in Ajax,

I gave you the team roster that won the CL for Liverpool, What was the purchase cost of those players,

Which budget did Deschamps work with to get to the CL finals,

The current Porto coach is barely 33 and he has won a Continental trophy some Wenger CAN"T win

You are not prepared to go into another transition with a batter coach but would rather stay with a failed coach after 15yrs and 6yrs of trophylessness?

@ bolded.
That is why I always say Wenger's disciples are mediocrity at its finest!

one thing on denilson ;because a player flops at one club does not mean he is finished remember forlan.
he is still young and maybe he needs certain types of players around him, bendtner too ok  player but not arsenal.
dismantled too quickly yes. too ruthless and that is why no one is loyal they know how it will end

proudly9ja:

Even Mour with all the money he has spent at Chelsea and Madrid, why hasn't he won the CL since he left Porto?.

What did he win with Inter? Copa Libertadores or CAF Cup

Thing is, we may bring in a new coach and he may deliver better results but then again, he may fail woefully. If there's anything I don't want. its us replacing coaches like Chelsea/Liverpool have been doing. That's why I'm willing to give AW one more season and that's only because I see signs that he is slowly swallowing his pride

A coach is on his 6th trophyless season yet he should be given time to make it 7? SMH

renewnaija:

@ proudly9ja.
Listen to  dayokanu. You may learn a lot cos I assume you are a relatively new Arsenal fan to say that you dont think there is a coach out there that can work with our budget and still deliver. Really?

There should be no benfit of doubt cos we have given him enough (why i say you are new to the club).

Wenger is at best a good talent spotter and exceptional economist but that's where the buck stops. I remember I was mad when Liverpool last won the Champ lg cos I asked how Cisse, Baros, Smicer, Finan, Dudek were better than the 'Invincibles'? Still beats me to this day. Wenger just doesnt cut it when the sh.i.t. hits the fan

Luis Garcia from Barcelona at age 26 for £6M, Alonso(£10.7M at age 22 was Sociedad's captain before joining Liverpool), Kewell(£5M at age 25 after his heroics with the Leeds Utd team) (Smicer(£4.2M. Joined at 26 after inspiring Lens to the league title), Baros (£3.4M at 21 after winning CzechTalent of the year award in 2000) (Cisse (£14M) at 23 after scoring 70 goals in 128 games in the french league).

As you can see, the Liverpool team that won the champ's league cannot in anyway be compared to the current Arsenal team.
Yes the invincibles was a great team but sadly like I have said earlier, AW was too much in a haste to dismantle that team. If he had built on that team, we may have eventually won the Champ's league. We were only a few minutes away from winning it remember?

proudly9ja:

Before AW joined Arsenal, we won some CUP trophies and United was king of England. If AW didn't win the EPL in his first two seasons it would not have been a disaster.
This time the case is different. He has set a standard for himself and whoever will come to take his place?

Of all the names you called, only Mour is worth mentioning. You have forgotten Porto DROPPED from the CL in a group that also had Arsenal? If Arsenal drops from the group stages of the CL under AW, it would be a disaster!

Deschamp's qualified his team for the CL and that's an achievement?

The Louis Van Gaal case is almost the same thing happening at Barca now. He benefitted from a well run youth system. Van der saar, Kluivert, Bergkamp, Seedorf, etc were all from that system and they had played together for years before eventually becoming the force that won the Champ's Lge. Maybe you don't know Van Gaal was at Ajax for 5 years before he won the CL with that team. Even he didn't overlook the effect of experienced players like AW has done. He had Danny Blind, Rijkaard and De Boer brothers in that team. How come he hasn't replicated the feat at any other club since then?

Based on the quality of players at Arsenes disposal, there is no excuse for him to be 6yrs trophyless.

You said Van gaal was 5yrs at Ajax before winning, How many years has Arsene spent at Arsenal?

Kluivert, Seedorf, Kanu and Edgar were like teenagers when they won

If van gaal can win the CL in 5yrs why cant Wenger win in 15yrs

He has Danny Blind, Rijkarrd etc Wenger has Arshavin, He had Gallas, He had Henry, He had Overmars, He had Vieira, He had Suker, Bergkamp, Kanu, Pires, Campbell, Why didnt he win the CL with them?

champions league is neither here nor there.how many coaches win that

the main thing is premiership arsenal should win it once in 3 or 4 years.

and always be in the top 3.
that is more realistic

proudly9ja:

Luis Garcia from Barcelona at age 26 for £6M, Alonso(£10.7M at age 22 was Sociedad's captain before joining Liverpool), Kewell(£5M at age 25 after his heroics with the Leeds Utd team) (Smicer(£4.2M. Joined at 26 after inspiring Lens to the league title), Baros (£3.4M at 21 after winning CzechTalent of the year award in 2000) (Cisse (£14M) at 23 after scoring 70 goals in 128 games in the french league).

As you can see, the Liverpool team that won the champ's league cannot in anyway be compared to the current Arsenal team.
Yes the invincibles was a great team but sadly like I have said earlier, AW was too much in a haste to dismantle that team. If he had built on that team, we may have eventually won the Champ's league. We were only a few minutes away from winning it remember?

Really thats 44m total.

Can you add the amount spent on Arshavin = 15m, Walcott = 12m, Nasri = 12m,  Kolscieny = 10m. Those 4 are already more than you claim for Arsenal

Then add the market value of Fabregas, Van persie, Sagna, Clichy, Song. Thats the first 11 alone

NOW YOU CAN SEE THAT WENGER IS A FAILURE

dayokanu:

What did he win with Inter? Copa Libertadores or CAF Cup

A coach is on his 6th trophyless season yet he should be given time to make it 7? SMH

Forgive my error but then again, the Inter team didn't come cheap too. Something we can't afford at Arsenal.

You need to read what I said before. I did not in anyway say there is no coach who can do better at Arsenal with same resources. I have only said that since I don't have a crystal ball to see the future and since AW is showing signs of changing his policy these days, I am willing to give him one more chance.

If you have followed my posts in seasons past, this is the first time in a long time I will be optimistic about summer signings. In the past I have always said AW won't sign as expected and he hasn't disappointed. But this season seems a bit different. I can only wait and see.

proudly9ja:

Forgive my error but then again, the Inter team didn't come cheap too. Something we can't afford at Arsenal.

You need to read what I said before. I did not in anyway say there is no coach who can do better at Arsenal with same resources. I have only said that since I don't have a crystal ball to see the future and since AW is showing signs of changing his policy these days, I am willing to give him one more chance.

If you have followed my posts in seasons past, this is the first time in a long time I will be optimistic about summer signings. In the past I have always said AW won't sign as expected and he hasn't disappointed. But this season seems a bit different. I can only wait and see.

Whats different about this season?

Man Utd and Arsenal were trophyless last season

This season Man Utd bought Smalling, Bebe and chicharito. Arsenal bought Chamakh (An experienced striker, Squilacci An experienced Defender and Kolscieny)

As at 12 months ago who would you say has the better players? Yet Fergie won the League conveniently and lost in the CL finals while Wenger and his better buys ended up trophyless for the umpteenth time

I wonder what you would have said if it was SAF that bought Chamakh and co while Wenger bought bebe and co.

dayokanu:

Really thats 44m total.

Can you add the amount spent on Arshavin = 15m, Walcott = 12m, Nasri = 12m,  Kolscieny = 10m. Those 4 are already more than you claim for Arsenal

Then add the market value of Fabregas, Van persie, Sagna, Clichy, Song. Thats the first 11 alone

NOW YOU CAN SEE THAT WENGER IS A FAILURE

That was in 2002 - 2004 when they joined Liverpool. At that time a certain Wiltord was record signing at Arsenal for 11million.
Moreover the liverpool players has pedigree before joining Liverpool.
Who was Walcott, Fabregas, Denilson, Song, Kos, Djorou, Scezcezny, Wilshere before they became first team regulars? Thats more than half of our first team.

I can't even believe we are comparing the Liverpool team under Benitez to the invincibles. Yes they won the Champ's league but how many league titles did they win?

Someone won the CL you are asking for League?

Like someone winning Nobel and you are asking if he won "City people awards"

You mean Robin Van persie had no Pedigree before joining Arsenal, Arshavin, Nasri, Rosicky, Chamakh, Squilacci They all had no pedigree?

Chamakh just inspired Bordeaux to a league win in France, Squilacci an experienced defender, Rosicky A very good Czech player from mDortmund bought at 25yrs, Nasri the Frech sensation of that time often compared to Zidane, Arshavin who shook Europe with his exploits at Zenit and Russian NT?

dayokanu:

Based on the quality of players at Arsenes disposal, there is no excuse for him to be 6yrs trophyless.

You said Van gaal was 5yrs at Ajax before winning, How many years has Arsene spent at Arsenal?

Kluivert, Seedorf, Kanu and Edgar were like teenagers when they won

If van gaal can win the CL in 5yrs why cant Wenger win in 15yrs

He has Danny Blind, Rijkarrd etc Wenger has Arshavin, He had Gallas, He had Henry, He had Overmars, He had Vieira, He had Suker, Bergkamp, Kanu, Pires, Campbell, Why didnt he win the CL with them?

Yes they won the CL with a team that had been together for a long time at youth level. Unfortunately, we cannot say same at Arsenal. Beyond the invincibles, we have built and dismantled teams with ease. Just when Flamini, Cesc, Hleb partnership was beginning to work, we sold two of the three in one season. Just when Nasri, Cesc, Wilshere and Song are beginning to jell, we are about losing one or two of them.

Sad thing is it is difficult to build such teams again. Even Ajax has not been able to keep their youngsters. De Jong, Babel, Sneider, VanderVaart are all products of the same youth system but even Ajax has not been able to keep them together. Barca is the only top team in Europe that has been able to keep their youth players together and we can all see the result.
I am not excusing AW failures but I know it's not an easy job keeping these players. That's why some fans are calling for the return of David Dein.

signings is not the issue.

this season they should have  won  something

certainly not come 4th in premiership

did they lose to birmingham because of signings or man u in the FA cup because of signings this squad is actually very good and arsenal is one of the most consistent teams in the champions league recently
that is no fluke.


problem is the mentality has changed and that is down to arsene.

look at the draws with liverpool.
man  u this season were average and it was a poor premiership won with 81 points compared to chelsea's record 95

even the medical team/pacing of players is suspect when u think about the injury situation at key moments every season

proudly9ja:

Yes they won the CL with a team that had been together for a long time at youth level. Unfortunately, we cannot say same at Arsenal. Beyond the invincibles, we have built and dismantled teams with ease. Just when Flamini, Cesc, Hleb partnership was beginning to work, we sold two of the three in one season. Just when Nasri, Cesc, Wilshere and Song are beginning to jell, we are about losing one or two of them.

Sad thing is it is difficult to build such teams again. Even Ajax has not been able to keep their youngsters. De Jong, Babel, Sneider, VanderVaart are all products of the same youth system but even Ajax has not been able to keep them together. Barca is the only top team in Europe that has been able to keep their youth players together and we can all see the result.
I am not excusing AW failures but I know it's not an easy job keeping these players. That's why some fans are calling for the return of David Dein.

I thought a lot of Arsenal players have been together for over 5 yrs and are also youth players?

Clichy, Song, Diaby, Fabregas, Wilshere, Bendtner, Djourou, Van persie, Walcott, etc have been with this team for over 5yrs now whats the next excuse.

Van Gaal won within 5yrs, Why hasnt Arsene won in 15yrs

dayokanu:

Someone won the CL you are asking for League?

Like someone winning Nobel and you are asking if he won "City people awards"

Go and ask Madrid why they sacked Capello after he won the Champ's league. By the way, I think any Liverpool fan will prefer Arsenal's position to Liverpool's position. We didn't almost go bankrupt like they did and we haven't dropped out of the top 4 in d past two seasons like they have.

You mean Robin Van persie had no Pedigree before joining Arsenal, Arshavin, Nasri, Rosicky, Chamakh, Squilacci They all had no pedigree?

Chamakh just inspired Bordeaux to a league win in France, Squilacci an experienced defender, Rosicky A very good Czech player from mDortmund bought at 25yrs, Nasri the Frech sensation of that time often compared to Zidane, Arshavin who shook Europe with his exploits at Zenit and Russian NT?

How many seasons has Rosicky played a more than 20 league games for Arsenal since he joined us in 2006?
As for the others, asides Nasri, have they spent more than two seasons at Arsenal? Is that not why I have said with them and two or three more signings (minus Squillaci), I believe we will do better than ever next season?

Go and ask Madrid why they sacked Capello after he won the Champ's league.

Capello won Champions League with Real?

Which one is worse?

THIS

4 Play:

Capello won Champions League with Real?

OR THIS

proudly9ja:

Even Mour with all the money he has spent at Chelsea and Madrid, why hasn't he won the CL since he left Porto?

dayokanu:

I thought a lot of Arsenal players have been together for over 5 yrs and are also youth players?

Clichy, Song, Diaby, Fabregas, Wilshere, Bendtner, Djourou, Van persie, Walcott, etc have been with this team for over 5yrs now whats the next excuse.

Van Gaal won within 5yrs, Why hasnt Arsene won in 15yrs

When did Djorou, Wilshere, Diaby Fabregas play together? Do you want to compare them to VanderSaar, Kluivert, Litmanen, Deboer Brothers, Blind, Rijkaard, Overmars, Davids all first teamers?

Like I said, keeping a team together isn't easy these days but it is definitely a big edge. Ajax proved it and Barca has also proved it. Take away Xavi/Iniesta from Barca, will they remain the same?

dayokanu:

Which one is worse?

THIS
OR THIS

I think it means it is time for me to go to bed.

proudly9ja:

When did Djorou, Wilshere, Diaby Fabregas play together? Do you want to compare them to VanderSaar, Kluivert, Litmanen, Deboer Brothers, Blind, Rijkaard, Overmars, Davids all first teamers?

I know Djorou, Wilshere and fabregas are regulars add that to Clichy, Song thats like half the team already

Like I said, keeping a team together isn't easy these days but it is definitely a big edge. Ajax proved it and Barca has also proved it. Take away Xavi/Iniesta from Barca, will they remain the same?

True for any team, Take Fabregas away from Arsenal would they remain the same

Lets not lose focus.

Prove that Wenger is not a below average coach.