@ebos,

ebos:

Having prayed for you people. I want you to point any portion of the bible where the Angels or the Apostles ridiculed Mary the way you (Protestants) do.

Hehehe . . . who ever said that we're ridiculing Mary? How does our clearly stating that we do NOT "pray to" Mary translate into "ridiculing" her? Did any angel ever pray to Mary? Did any angel (including angel Gabriel) ever ask us to pray to her? Where did you read that any of the apostles (even Peter) prayed to Mary?

I'm sure the angels never once "prayed to" Mary nor asked anyone living or dead to do so. If you have found that verse, please post it!

ebos:

I'm crying and crying for you - Pilgrim. Join the true Church. I just hope my prayer will make impact. Cheers!

Dry your tears - I'm safe in Jesus' arms. The day I offer prayers to Mary is the day I turn my back on Jesus! Why? Because Mariolatry is contrary to Jesus' teachings, it was not practised by any of the apostles or early Christians led by the apostles; and no angel ever brought any revelation to urge Christians to do so.

If I make Mary what she is NOT, then I'm effectively helping to spread the disobedience of the Vatican against God. Tough love, but so it is.

ebos:

Pilgrim, just try answer me this question. Which year were you converted? Hope you will answer me.

Yes, I will answer. Just what has my year of conversion got to do with understanding God's WORD?

@ebos,

ebos:

Pilgrim of all these women you mentioned and compared with Mary, it’s a known fact that no Angel of God or Prophets addressed or greeted them as being Hail and favoured one, FULL of Grace.

True. And we should also note that NO ANGEL ever greeted Mary with the words higlighted in yours: "FULL of Grace". Where did you find angel Gabriel greeting Mary with "FULL of Grace"?

Una no see how una dey cheat yourselves? This is the greeting of the angel Gabriel to her:

"And the angel came in unto her, and said,
Hail, thou that art highly favoured,
the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
--- (Luke 1:28)

By trying to interpolate the words "FULL of Grace" into angel Gabriel's greeting, the Catholic Church has tried to take what belongs alone to Jesus Christ and make Mary's property so they can continue their Mariolatry! No offences, but my dear friend, it pays to carefully read God's WORD so that nobody go shakara us for this life! Let me show you that the only Person recorded in Scripture to be "FULL of Grace" is Jesus Christ Himself and no one else:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten
of the Father,) FULL OF GRACE and truth."
--- (John 1:14)

You don see am? That's why I asked you at one time to post the Hail Mary prayer and also compare it with what is precisely written in the Bible - but I know say I go catch you for front! So, who is actually said to be "FULL of Grace", ebos?

The problem with your reasoning is that you're trying to make a greeting the basis for worshipping Mary - which is simply laughable! If you care to do a study of the angel's greeting, you'll find that others have also been greeted with divine favours - and yet, not one of them was therefore made an icon for the worship of believers.

Second, did you ever wonder that the very same greeting that Mary received was part of Paul's greeting to believers? Lol, I'll leave you to go find out where he used the same terms as appeared in angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary - and then come back and tell us where you find Paul turning anyone into co-redemptrix with Christ!

Not only so, even Jesus used a similar form of the angel's greeting to His disciples after His resurrection when He said: "ALL HAIL" (Matt. 28:9). Did He therefore turn ALL or any of the disciples into "co-redemptrix" by His gracious greeting to them? Na wa for you, ebos!

@ebos,

ebos:

I hope you understand the word FULL. It simply means complete, that is every part of Mary from Head to Toe was filled with grace of God. That’s Mary Special. My Mother, she entices me so much and I love her and will continue to do so.

No wahala. The last time I checked, others were also described as being "FULL OF" special blessings - and yet, in none of those cases did any one of them assume the role of co-redemptrix! Shall we take a look?

Keeping in mind your definition of "FULL" as pointing to "every part from head to toe", sidon proper and consider the following passages. Of Joshua it was said that, "the son of Nun was FULL OF the spirit of wisdom" (Deut. 34:9). Did you say it means "complete - from head to toe"? Then that's "Joshua Special" for you as well.

We also find in the NT that others were described as "full of" other blessings. The apostles in the early age of the Church asked that the disciples looked for seven men of honest report, who also were "FULL OF the Holy Ghost and wisdom," (Acts 6:3). Among them was Stephen who was described as "a man FULL OF faith and of the Holy Ghost" (vs. 5) as well as "FULL OF faith and power" (vs. 8). Further, Paul writing in Romans 15:14 said: "And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are FULL OF goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another."

Now, when all these people were spoken of as being "FULL OF" one blessing or another, did that therefore make them into "co-redemptrix"? Certainly NOT! The problem is that you're reasoning along Catholic lines and making the mistake of ascribing words and greetings to people in order to ascribe divinity to Mary.

However, there's only One who is truly "FULL OF" the blessings you mistake as ascribed to Mary. It is twice said that "the LORD is gracious and full of compassion" (Psa. 111:4 and 145:8). In the NT, of course, we read that Jesus Christ is "FULL of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

There's nowhere it is written in God's WORD that Mary is "full of grace", for that is said alone of Jesus Christ. This only further confirms that the Catholic argument to make Mary what she is not, is a sad case indeed.

Warmest regards.

Pilgrim, I never prayed that God should take away your life or that of the Protestants. I can’t pray such. I only said may God take the lives of our Protestants – that is a way of transforming it for better knowledge. However, Cgift and Pilgrim, Catholic never taught that Mary is the way. I asked before, and I still ask, when your Pastors pray for you, are they not mediating or interceding? If you answer is no, then mention in one word the action of what they are doing. I don’t want to hear Prayer.

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Mediator between God and man, but Mary can still pray for us through Jesus Christ. The first thing to consider here is this, the link between Jesus and Mary, did it end here on earth or did it continue beyond the earth? Can Jesus (be able to) recognize the spiritual voice of the mother anywhere it is? If the link between Jesus and Mary did not end on earth and if Jesus is able to recognize His mother’s voice anywhere then it is appropriate for one to make prayers through Mary to get Jesus. When one prays through Mary, what happened in Cana of Galilee in a marriage feast could happen again. At Mary’s intervention or request, Jesus changed water into wine (Jon2:2-11). There was no argument between the marriage celebrants and Jesus. Mary simply talked to Jesus and the celebrants had better wine at their disposal. The celebrant were in a precarious condition – how to satisfy their guests, but when Jesus through Mary came into the scene, their condition changed automatically. The only Great Madam. Just Shout Alleluia! Just make Mary intervene for you, and you will be singing a new song. Mary is a saint, she is righteous.

However, this does not mean that if you pray straight to God, he would not answer you. He would answer you, but under one condition, “if you are able to get his code number,” but Mary knows His code number anytime. This code number is the state of righteousness and grace. “The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.: James 5:16.

The blessed Virgin Mary had already been confirmed righteous by God through Angel Gabriel. The Saints who are also in the presence of God have been confirmed righteous, therefore we can pray through them to Jesus. They intercede for us. The Saints pray in heaven (Rev. 8:3). Mary is among the Saints. We can still pray for one another just as Saint Paul asked his fellow Christians to pray for them (2Thess. 3:1 and Rom. 15:30)

Pilgrim listen, Catholic DON’T WORSHIP MARY. It is only the Living GOD we worship. You are becoming intractable, Pilgrim? When Catholic say Pray to Mary – we simply mean ask, implore, beg or Request Mary to pray for us. Let the word PRAY not confuse you. I know that is where you have problem.

Pilgrim, answer my question. Ok, it is off topic. When were you converted? You promised to answer me, but went ahead to ask me a question in return. I want to put some certain side by side to appraise you.

Hi ebos,

ebos:

Pilgrim, I never prayed that God should take away your life or that of the Protestants. I can’t pray such. I only said may God take the lives of our Protestants – that is a way of transforming it for better knowledge.

Okay, I hear. I was just teasing you on the use of an unpopular construct in prayers as Catholics frame it. We know what someone would mean when he says "take the lives" of so and so.  

ebos:

However, Cgift and Pilgrim, Catholic never taught that Mary is the way. I asked before, and I still ask, when your Pastors pray for you, are they not mediating or interceding? If you answer is no, then mention in one word the action of what they are doing. I don’t want to hear Prayer.

Let's get one thing straight: asking someone to pray or intercede on your behalf is not the same thing as PRAYING TO that person. I never PRAY TO my Pastor or any other person, for my prayers are addressed to God and to Him alone through the percious Name of His Son Jesus Christ.

The problem with Mariolatry is acsribing deity to Mary which God never ascribed to her! Compare the facts that we have tabled all through our discussions and see the difference between Mariolatry and Christians praying for one another:

[list]Mariolatry: people PRAY TO Mary
Christians: NO "praying to" Mary

Mariolatry: people say Mary is "FULL of Grace" according to angel Gabriel's greeting
Christians: ONLY Jesus Christ is "FULL of Grace" according to the WORD of God

Mariolatry: people BOW DOWN TO statues of Mary
Christians: NO "bowing down to" any statues of pastor, Mary, or Pope[/list]

. . . and so many things that Catholics cannot find in the WORD of God. What is so wrong with asking that we settle our understanding of Christianity on what the Bible teaches instead of dribbling in the practices that are actually in direct conravention of what God has spoken?

You will never find anyone "PRAYING TO" a pastor; and trying to "pray to" dead saints is actually necromancy.  Besides, when we carefully look into God's WORD, what do you think He says about the term "Queen of Heaven"? Have you taken the time to consider that also?

ebos:

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Mediator between God and man, but Mary can still pray for us through Jesus Christ.

I'm still waiting for you to defend that from God's WORD. If Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, what is the meaning of introducing others besides the "ONLY" One? What is the meaning of co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix? Do we have ONLY One Mediator, or we have to look for others and make them also the same thing as Jesus Christ by giving them titles such as "CO-this and that"? Why do we try to propagate and promote disobedience to God's WORD?

If we all acknowledge that there is "ONLY ONE" mediator, then let it remain "ONLY ONE". Let's not try to introduce the idea of "SEVERAL" by contradicting the "ONLY ONE" and flattering ourselves with "CO-only-one".

ebos:

The first thing to consider here is this, the link between Jesus and Mary, did it end here on earth or did it continue beyond the earth? Can Jesus (be able to) recognize the spiritual voice of the mother anywhere it is? If the link between Jesus and Mary did not end on earth and if Jesus is able to recognize His mother’s voice anywhere then it is appropriate for one to make prayers through Mary to get Jesus.

It is not only Mary's voice that Jesus recognizes - ALL who belong to Him are recognized by Him. That is the issue here. Catholicism is actually mounting a firewall between Christ and Christians by installing Mary between Jesus and all believers. If Catholicism can defend the idea that it is "appropriate to make prayers through Mary", let us read it - not from their unfortunate logic, but from what the WORD of God reveals.

ebos:

When one prays through Mary, what happened in Cana of Galilee in a marriage feast could happen again.

That event was only once. If not, then Catholics are asking that every single event between Mary and Jesus should be repeated. A good place to start would be the Crucifixion. How many times do you suppose the Crucifixion should be repeated? This idea of trying to use the marriage event of Cana to defend Mariolatry will not hold weight. Christians are not asking Mary for wedding wine and booze; we go directly to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ - and that is what is taught in God's WORD (John 5:16).

@ebos,

ebos:

At Mary’s intervention or request, Jesus changed water into wine (Jon2:2-11). There was no argument between the marriage celebrants and Jesus. Mary simply talked to Jesus and the celebrants had better wine at their disposal. The celebrant were in a precarious condition – how to satisfy their guests, but when Jesus through Mary came into the scene, their condition changed automatically. The only Great Madam. Just Shout Alleluia!

Lol, have you considered others who came directly to Jesus without the "intervention" of Mary? Oh brother, let me remind you of a few of them:

[list]
[li]Blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus -- Mark 10:46-52[/li][/list]

[list]Notice this man never allowed the "intervention" of anyone (Mary or any of the Lord's disciples) to get in his way! They tried to shut him up, but he cried out the more to Jesus! What was the result? The King of glory stopped for this blind man. Wow! Jesus did not "advise" to go and seek out Mary and lay his request to be passed on to Him. No such thing. Haba! Instead, when the Lord Jesus Christ healed the blind man, He said unto him: "Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole"[/list]

[list]
[li]Healing of apostle Peter's mother-in-law  --  Mark 8:14-15[/li][/list]

[list]I'll just let you read for yourself what happened: "And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them."  Em. . . ebos, the Catholic Church claims that Peter is the first Pope; but when his own mother-in-law was sick, where did he run to Mary for consultations?   You see Mary for Peter's house? No Mariolatry there - and yet Jesus healed the woman straight way! Haa, faith in Jesus is a wonderful thing, my brother. 
[/list]

ebos:

Just make Mary intervene for you, and you will be singing a new song. Mary is a saint, she is righteous.

Oh believe me, the Bible calls all true Christians "saints" and "righteous" - not because of their personal achievements, but because of what Jesus has done for them (Heb. 2:11 and 13:12).

ebos:

However, this does not mean that if you pray straight to God, he would not answer you. He would answer you, but under one condition, “if you are able to get his code number,” but Mary knows His code number anytime. This code number is the state of righteousness and grace. “The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.: James 5:16.

I see. It would do us a great deal of blessing to understand that the so-called "code number" was given to ALL Christians who truly believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. God made us righteous in His Son (1 Cor. 1:30) and there's no "pass" or "visa" or "code" vested in Mary that Christians need. My prayers have been answered many times without the co-mediatrix of Mary or any "queen of heaven".

ebos:

The blessed Virgin Mary had already been confirmed righteous by God through Angel Gabriel. The Saints who are also in the presence of God have been confirmed righteous, therefore we can pray through them to Jesus. They intercede for us. The Saints pray in heaven (Rev. 8:3). Mary is among the Saints. We can still pray for one another just as Saint Paul asked his fellow Christians to pray for them (2Thess. 3:1 and Rom. 15:30)

Saint Paul did not ask dead people to pray for him - nor did any of the apostles solicit the prayers of any dead saint. As a matter of fact, they recognized that every true Christian is regarded as a saint - and not those who the Catholic Church seek to canonize (Acts 9:32, 41; Rom. 1:7).

ebos:

Pilgrim listen, Catholic DON’T WORSHIP MARY. It is only the Living GOD we worship. You are becoming intractable, Pilgrim? When Catholic say Pray to Mary – we simply mean ask, implore, beg or Request Mary to pray for us. Let the word PRAY not confuse you. I know that is where you have problem.

I don't have any problem anywhere. When Catholicism asks people to pray to Mary, they are being asked to put ALL their hope and trust in Mary - and I've shown this many times from Pope Leo XIII's clear statement. The only Person in whom anyone should put ALL their trust and hope in is GOD Himself and no other (Psalm 4:5).

Cheers.

ebos:

Pilgrim, answer my question. Ok, it is off topic. When were you converted? You promised to answer me, but went ahead to ask me a question in return. I want to put some certain side by side to appraise you.

Lol. .  ebos, I'm sorry to not oblige you the precise answer you seek. I'm afraid I might have to be vague yet again for the simple reason that I don't see how this discussion should become a personal issue - whether about my denomination, my age, the number of years since my conversion, etc. I've been a Christian in less than a decade now but long before my conversion, I was actually reading the Bible in as many translations as I could find. Even since my conversion, I still read the Qur'an, the Grail Message, historical writings, and other stuff. My understanding from the little I know is what I seek to share, nothing more or less - and that's why I would not like my discussions to become a personal focus. Incidentally, even in other threads (such as dealing on Tithes), I've been asked that same question about my denomination - and my answer was the same: it has got nothing to do with the topic.

Outside of the Forum, I always try to oblige personal answers to personal questions. However, if it has nothing at all to do with what I discuss on the Forum, enquirers would wait long to get me talking on detracting issues. Sorry, ebos. . . but for now it's just going to be this way: I'm a Protestant, converted in less than a decade, and enjoying fellowship where I worship with other Christians.

Cheers. 

Hello Pilgrim,

There is nothing like making it a personal issue on a simple question I asked, even as I see nothing wrong with it – if it has to be personal for me to get what I need. I’m even amazed that a simple question of ‘when were you converted?’ that need only a simple answer of ‘Two Words’ could be stretched with over 100 words. I believe you would have saved that energy if you had gone straight to the answer.

We discuss together, and as friends I need to ask you a question to get my mind free and you too can ask. Not just satisfied with your answer.

However, you said there is a difference when a Pastor Intercede for you and when we pray to Mary. And you stated that we have only One Mediator which is Jesus. I agree with you. But I will like to know if there is any difference between Interceding and mediating, hence you claim it is only Jesus that can mediate. Again, Catholics worship only God but honour Mary.

Do give answers to my questions because I see nothing strange in it

@ebos,

ebos:

There is nothing like making it a personal issue on a simple question I asked, even as I see nothing wrong with it – if it has to be personal for me to get what I need. I’m even amazed that a simple question of ‘when were you converted?’ that need only a simple answer of ‘Two Words’ could be stretched with over 100 words. I believe you would have saved that energy if you had gone straight to the answer.

We discuss together, and as friends I need to ask you a question to get my mind free and you too can ask. Not just satisfied with your answer.

Less than a decade. 

ebos:

However, you said there is a difference when a Pastor Intercede for you and when we pray to Mary. And you stated that we have only One Mediator which is Jesus. I agree with you. But I will like to know if there is any difference between Interceding and mediating, hence you claim it is only Jesus that can mediate. Again, Catholics worship only God but honour Mary.

Please read the following carefully:

[list]
[li]"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises" -- Hebrews 8:6[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. -- Hebrews 9:15[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -- Matthew 26:28[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." --  Hebrews 12:24[/li]
[/list]

Where did Mary come into all those verses as "co-redemptrix" and "co-mediatrix"?

ebos:

Do give answers to my questions because I see nothing strange in it

Done as requested. Cheers.

With this despration about pilgrim's personals, i am sure [b]ebos [/b]will believe even a lie

Pilgrim, you said there is a difference between when a Pastor intercede for you and when Catholics pray to Mary. Now, with your statement, you eventually confirmed that a Pastor can intercede for other people. I then asked if a Pastor can intercede, what is the difference between interceding and mediating? I believe there is no difference between the two words. My point, since there is no difference, why must your Pastors intercede for people hence we have Only (One) Mediator which is Christ as maintained by both Catholic and Protestants. Check back your post(s) to get your acknowledgement.

Pilgrim, less than 10 years – Story that still cause confusion. 1 or 2 or 3 etc is the best answer. But not frantic to know it.

Cgift – I have no business to think of her telling me lies because what I don’t know and ask for information – then I have to accept any information provided by her. How can argue whatever thing she tells me hence she has sole (lone) information.

@ebos,

ebos:

Pilgrim, you said there is a difference between when a Pastor intercede for you and when Catholics pray to Mary. Now, with your statement, you eventually confirmed that a Pastor can intercede for other people. I then asked if a Pastor can intercede, what is the difference between interceding and mediating? I believe there is no difference between the two words.

If there is no difference between those words ("interceding" and "mediator" as used in the Bible, do we then say that:

* that Mary is the "mediator" of a better covenant (Heb. 8:6)?

* that Mary is the mediator of the 'new testament' or 'new covenant' (Heb. 9:15)?

* that Mary is the one who died 'for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament' (Heb. 9:15)?

* that Mary is the one who gave us the new testament/covenant in her blood (Matt. 26:28)?

The answers are staring you in the face; but then I notice you're trying to blur the lines so that you keep trying to abracadabra the issues you have not been able to demonstrate. You're so lucky to be in my good books (and lawyer, too) . . . or I for don post wetin go make una think and reflect deeply. But I hold on for now.

ebos:

My point, since there is no difference, why must your Pastors intercede for people hence we have Only (One) Mediator which is Christ as maintained by both Catholic and Protestants. Check back your post(s) to get your acknowledgement.

I've never made any pastor, Pope or Mary to assume the post of "mediator". Go back and see; and if you find where I called anyone a mediator apart from ONLY Jesus Christ, please post it.

ebos:

Pilgrim, less than 10 years – Story that still cause confusion. 1 or 2 or 3 etc is the best answer. But not frantic to know it.

What is the real issue here - the number of years since my conversion, or the issues being discussed from the Bible? If "less than a decade" is not an answer in few words, another way of putting it is "not up to 10 years". So, please do tell how that has become relevant to the discussion.

Cheers.

Let's get one thing straight: asking someone to pray or intercede on your behalf is not the same thing as PRAYING TO that person. I never PRAY TO my Pastor or any other person, for my prayers are addressed to God and to Him alone through the precious Name of His Son Jesus Christ.”

The above post by you is a confirmation that while Jesus is the only Intercessor or Mediator, someone can still intercede on your behalf. You just contradicted your argument that nothing like Co-Mediator. Don’t try to evade the main point now because you are trapped. We are talking about mediating or interceding for now, and not PRAY TO. Let us address the issue of Interceding or mediating first. So, what do have to say about the contradiction of your argument? Nevertheless, I don’t have bible here to go through the bible portions you pointed. I will go through it later.

However, Listen Pilgrim “You for don post wetin go make us reflect deeply.” Don’t only hold on for now, you better hold on till thy kingdom come. Please, don’t post anything that will upset me and I will reciprocate by not doing so. Anything you want to post may be the making of the Protestants and does not reflect the true Catholic teaching.

@ebos,

ebos:

Let's get one thing straight: asking someone to pray or intercede on your behalf is not the same thing as PRAYING TO that person. I never PRAY TO my Pastor or any other person, for my prayers are addressed to God and to Him alone through the precious Name of His Son Jesus Christ.”

The above post by you is a confirmation that while Jesus is the only Intercessor or Mediator, someone can still intercede on your behalf. You just contradicted your argument that nothing like Co-Mediator. Don’t try to evade the main point now because you are trapped.

You dey make me laugh, ebos. Is that the best you could show for a supposed "contradiction" in my post? C'mon bros. . . I expected far better than that.

To be an INTECESSOR is not to be confused for the role of the only MEDIATOR! That is why I gave you those verses to consider the huge difference between them, and it does not appear you have carefully examined those texts for yourself. This is the reason why I've asked you to answer the questions following those verses in my reposte:

If there is no difference between those words ("interceding" and "mediator" as used in the Bible, do we then say that:

* that Mary is the "mediator" of a better covenant (Heb. 8:6)?

* that Mary is the mediator of the 'new testament' or 'new covenant' (Heb. 9:15)?

* that Mary is the one who died 'for the redemptio[/b]n of the transgressions that were under the first testament' ([b]Heb. 9:15)?

* that Mary is the one who gave us the new testament/covenant in her blood (Matt. 26:28)?


If "mediator" is exactly the same as "intercessor", could you please address those questions above? If you say Mary is NOT the "mediator" from the texts above, wouldn't that at once nullify your own forceful assertions?

ebos:

We are talking about mediating or interceding for now, and not PRAY TO.

It is connected - because Catholics have always assumed that when they PRAY TO Mary, they "explain" it away on the excuse that they're only asking Mary to "intercede" for them. How are you going to "ask" Mary for something without first "praying to" her? Or you wan deny again say Catholics dey PRAY TO Mary?

ebos:

Let us address the issue of Interceding or mediating first. So, what do have to say about the contradiction of your argument? Nevertheless, I don’t have bible here to go through the bible portions you pointed. I will go through it later.

There are no contradiction in my quotes - you're the one confusing "intercede" and "mediator". When you go through the Bible texts, please come back and let's clear this issue and see what is left of Mariolatry!

ebos:

However, Listen Pilgrim “You for don post wetin go make us reflect deeply.” Don’t only hold on for now, you better hold on till thy kingdom come.

I dey laugh! You remember say Moses is not "arand" for now? If una no b'careful, I go misbehave O!

ebos:

Please, don’t post anything that will upset me and I will reciprocate by not doing so. Anything you want to post may be the making of the Protestants and does not reflect the true Catholic teaching.

That's why I still maintain that you're in my good books. I'll try to resist the temptation to post the "deep reflection".

Cheers.

The interceding or mediating is now a Case Study. I will go through my bible later in the day. So, tomorrow I will engage you again. For tomorrow, we will concentrate on intercessor or mediator. No deviation until the issue is cleared. You can’t wriggle yourself out. I understand the game you playing, instead of you to answer yes or no if the two words are similar in meaning – you are now asking me questions and referring me to my bible just to divert attention from the main issue. No way for you on this. I'm much interested on this than every other thing for now. It must be addressed before we go further

ebos:

The interceding or mediating is now a Case Study. I will go through my bible later in the day. So, tomorrow I will engage you again. For tomorrow, we will concentrate on intercessor or mediator. No deviation until the issue is cleared. You can’t wriggle yourself out.

I'm not trying to wriggle myself outa nothing. When you're done with some Bible search, then we go talk more tomorrow.

ebos:

I understand the game you playing, instead of you to answer yes or no if the two words are similar in meaning – you are now asking me questions and referring me to my bible just to divert attention from the main issue.

How could I say "yes" to what is clearly not the case? Even so, I would have expected you to answer the few questions I asked to show that Mary is the one being spoken of in those verses I offered you ealier. Have you answered them? Perhaps more tomorrow then.

ebos:

No way for you on this. I'm much interested on this than every other thing for now. It must be addressed before we go further

I'm glad that your interest has been stirred through our discussion on this point. Let's hope for a more involving discourse tomorrow, abi?

Enjoy.

Hi Pilgrim,

* co-mediatrix
* co-redemptrix
* Queen of Heaven
* Mother of God

You posted the above, and I will address them accordingly.

Pilgrim listen, I have gone through the portions you posted. The portions conversed about mediator. I also understand that Mary was not the Saviour who redeemed us according to the portions. Catholic have never argued it.

Mary as Co-mediatrix - So, when a Pastor prays for you, what is he doing? Mediating or interceding? Remember, we have One Mediator or Intercessor who is Christ, and Catholic and Protestants believe it, and so Mary and the Saints are not supposed to co-mediate as you claim. But I tell you that the Angels and the Saints in Heaven are very much alive and they also pray, nothing like necromancy. Mary is one of the Saints. There will be joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. This show the Saints in heaven knows what is happening on earth. Rev. 8 1-5 also made mention of the angels and the saints praying in heaven with Incense. Also Rev. 6 Vs 10-11 the Saints in Heaven crying with a loud voice O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth. This is a prayer and it shows they can still pray on our behalf.

Mary as Co-redemptrix – Now, think what would have been our fate today if Mary had doubted or rejected the words of Angel Gabriel. In the OT, when it was said that Sarah would conceive and bear a child, she laughed – an indication of her doubt. When it was told that Elizabeth would conceive and bear a child – Zechariah doubted. You know the consequence. But when Angel Gabriel told Mary that the Power of the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would conceive and bear a son who would be the Messiah of the world. Mary humbly believed the words of the Angel Gabriel. What a great faith?

I know if you were Mary, you would have asked Angel Gabriel to show you where it was in the scripture that someone conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit before or to mention one name in the history of Israel who conceived without having intercourse. Generations upon generations would have been victims of your show me in the scripture where someone conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Do you think that Mary’s faith did not contribute to redeem mankind? She really contributed because her faith made it possible for us to have the long awaiting Messiah.

Mary as the Queen of Heaven - Revelation Chapter 12. Though, we (Catholics) believe the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars is Mary. If you doubt it, then who is this woman? It is not enough to doubt without stating alternative.

Now, ebos interpretation of Rev. 12. (Quote ebos for now, and not Catholic) shebi you hear?

Verse 4 of it says - the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth and to devour the child but didn’t succeed - Explanation, this dragon was Satan who used Herod to kill the child Jesus but Herod did failed to succeed.

Verse 5 - the woman bore a male child who was to rule all nations and her Child was caught up to God and His throne – Explanation, Mary gave birth to Jesus the King of Kings who rule all over the nations and God gave Him all authority.

Verse 6 – the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God to avoid the dragon– Explanation,[/i] Mary fled to Egypt with Jesus to avoid Herod killing the Child Jesus.

Verse 13 and 14 – the dragon (Satan) saw he was defeated, he went to persecute the woman who gave birth to the male Child, but the woman was given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished – Explanation,[i] Catholics believe the assumption of Mary into heaven, her place. Remember, the bible did not talk about the death and burial of Mary, could that be a mistake for a mother of God or the Apostles couldn’t explain what happened to Mary? The portions made the teaching of the assumption of Mary come true.

Verse 17 – the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Explanation, [/i]Catholics believe that Mary is their Mother, while the dragon (Satan) has been using false Pastors and their unaware followers to attack Catholics (who are the children of the “Woman” Mary), who keep the commandments of God and have testimony of Jesus Christ. Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ Himself and it dates to the time of the Apostles and can give every account of what happened to Jesus both written and the message passed orally, no other Church can claim this.

Mother of God – If Elizabeth who was filled with the Holy Spirit could address Mary as the Mother of God, who can argue it? To argue it is a clear blasphemy. No long story on this one.

Now My Case with you (stated below)

If you doubt this explanation that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, then narrate your own explanation and tell us who is this woman clothed with sun in Heaven.

Once more, I ask, what is the Pastor doing when he prays for you? Interceding or what?

Was St Elizabeth hallucinating when she called Mary the Mother of God or she was filled or inspired by the Holy Spirit? If she was filled with the Holy Spirit, is it wise to take a queue of someone filled with the Holy Spirit or not?[i]


However, I’m of the view that it might be unnecessary to continue this discussion if you fail to address the three questions. (Very much appreciate you). No harsh words from me, and I’m not used to it. Enjoy!

ebos:

So, when a Pastor prays for you, what is he doing? But I tell you that the Angels and the Saints in Heaven are very much alive and they also pray, nothing like necromancy. Mary is one of the Saints. There will be joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. This show the Saints in heaven knows what is happening on earth. Rev. 8 1-5 also made mention of the angels and the saints praying in heaven with Incense. Also Rev. 6 Vs 10-11 the Saints in Heaven crying with a loud voice O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth. This is a prayer and it shows they can still pray on our behalf.

I think you are getting all these mixed up. First and foremost, the mediation you are talking about is completely at variance with the mediation of Jesus which the bible talks about. The mediation of Jesus according to Hebrews 8:6 ¶But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 9:15 ¶And for this cause [b]he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.[/b]simlpy refers to the work of the cross. It is not just Jesus staying in Heaven sitting on the throne and negotiating with God on our behalf. That is not the kind of mediation which Jesus demonstrated.

His mediation was the cross, the crucifixion and not the one you would want to assign to him now.

Secondly, who has told you that the saints who rejoice in heaven are the people who have died in Christ? Even if it is, who ascribed the function of a pray-er to Mary? Why create a longer route when Christ said I am the way? Look at this funny analogy, i think we protestants will get our prayers answered first because we pray directly to God through Jesus but Catholics pray first to Mary, who thn (i preseme carries it to Jesusbfor going to God)

ebos:
Mary as Co-redemptrix – Now, think what would have been our fate today if Mary had doubted or rejected the words of Angel Gabriel.

You yourself will agree with me that this analysis does not hold water. What if Mary had died after child birth? Again, let me tell you that, after the child birth, Mary was required to go and purify herself meaning she was impure!!!! Sorry if that hurts but it is simple inference from the scriptures. God would have probably sent Angel Gabriel to tell her not to bother about the purification or simply revealed to her in her dreams not to bother. But there was nothing as such meaning she fell into the category of all othr women. I appreciate the fact that she is blessed being the womb that carried the saviour for nine months though. If she had declined like you asserted, God would have looked for someone else and the story would have been prbably diferent today.

ebos:
In the OT, when it was said that Sarah would conceive and bear a child, she laughed – an indication of her doubt. When it was told that Elizabeth would conceive and bear a child – Zechariah doubted. You know the consequence. But when Angel Gabriel told Mary that the Power of the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would conceive and bear a son who would be the Messiah of the world. Mary humbly believed the words of the Angel Gabriel. What a great faith?

Several other women in the scripture had demonstrated similar virtues of faith hope and love.

ebos:
I know if you were Mary, you would have asked Angel Gabriel to show you where it was in the scripture that someone conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit before or to mention one name in the history of Israel who conceived without having intercourse. Generations upon generations would have been victims of your show me in the scripture where someone conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Do you think that Mary’s faith did not contribute to redeem mankind? She really contributed because her faith made it possible for us to have the long awaiting Messiah.

This is comical

ebos:
Mary as the Queen of Heaven - Revelation Chapter 12. Though, we (Catholics) believe the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars is Mary. If you doubt it, then who is this woman? It is not enough to doubt without stating alternative.

I have addressed this.

ebos:
Now, ebos interpretation of Rev. 12. (Quote ebos for now, and not Catholic) shebi you hear?

Verse 4 of it says - the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth and to devour the child but didn’t succeed - Explanation, this dragon was Satan who used Herod to kill the child Jesus but Herod did failed to succeed.

Verse 5 - the woman bore a male child who was to rule all nations and her Child was caught up to God and His throne – Explanation, Mary gave birth to Jesus the King of Kings who rule all over the nations and God gave Him all authority.

Verse 6 – the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God to avoid the dragon– Explanation,[/i] Mary fled to Egypt with Jesus to avoid Herod killing the Child Jesus.

Verse 13 and 14 – the dragon (Satan) saw he was defeated, he went to persecute the woman who gave birth to the male Child, but the woman was given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished – Explanation,[i] Catholics believe the assumption of Mary into heaven, her place. Remember, the bible did not talk about the death and burial of Mary, could that be a mistake for a mother of God or the Apostles couldn’t explain what happened to Mary? The portions made the teaching of the assumption of Mary come true.

Verse 17 – the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Explanation, [/i]Catholics believe that Mary is their Mother, while the dragon (Satan) has been using false Pastors and their unaware followers to attack Catholics (who are the children of the “Woman” Mary), who keep the commandments of God and have testimony of Jesus Christ. Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ Himself and it dates to the time of the Apostles and can give every account of what happened to Jesus both written and the message passed orally, no other Church can claim this.

Mr ebos! Mr ebos!! Mr ebos!!!. Very soon, you go begin produce and sell your own bible commetary o! Ol boy you sabi bend o. Kai. Why you run away from the 12 stars wehin dey there? Okay let me resolve your worries about the scene in Revlation 12.

Rev. 12: 1-6 The church is being presented here under the emblem of a woman. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness (See Mal. 4: 12).

Having on her head a crown of twelve stars; the doctrine of the gospel, preached by the[b] twelve apostles[/b] (you know that Mary has no relationship with the first 12 apostles), is a crown of glory to all true believers. As in pain to bring forth a holy family; desirous that the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion.

A dragon is a known emblem of Satan, and his chief agents, or those who govern for him on earth, at that time the pagan empire of Rome, the city built upon seven hills. As having ten horns, divided into ten kingdoms. Having seven crowns, representing seven forms of government. As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth; persecuting and seducing the ministers and teachers. As watchful to crush the Christian religion; but in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.

The woman no be Mary at all and for your info, do not read what is not into it

ebos:
Mother of God – If Elizabeth who was filled with the Holy Spirit could address Mary as the Mother of God, who can argue it? To argue it is a clear blasphemy. No long story on this one.

Ok. I believe i should refer to Joseph as the Father of God

ebos:
Once more, I ask, what is the Pastor doing when he prays for you? Interceding or what?

When he prays, he is interceding truly. But i also pray for him. Do you people pray for Mary?

ebos:
Was St Elizabeth hallucinating when she called Mary the Mother of God or she was filled or inspired by the Holy Spirit? If she was filled with the Holy Spirit, is it wise to take a queue of someone filled with the Holy Spirit or not?[/b][i]

In the literal sense, Mary can be referred to as the Mother of God in human form but not God in Spirit because God has no beginning. This is where you miss it. That role is not important because God (thorugh Hos Word, which is Christ) created Mary and not vice versa.

Hoping to hear from you.

Cheers!

@cgift,

lol. . . I hope ebos will now understand I don't have anything personal to post on his misconceptions, as he should be aware that he hasn'd really dealt with the core issues he sought to address. Anyhow, cheers and well done.

Dear ebos,

Thanks for your rejoinder, Here's what you possibly have missed:

ebos:

Mary as Co-mediatrix - So, when a Pastor prays for you, what is he doing? Mediating or interceding?

He intercedes as believers do for one another and for all saints - but this does not make that pastor a 'mediator' or "co-mediatrix/co-mediator" with Christ. Your problem here is to try and pretend that Catholics regard Mary's role as "co-mediatrix" in just the same way as Protestant pastors pray for fellow believers. But that idea is simply not true, because no Protestant Pastor assumes the role or status that the Catholic Church ascribes to Mary! If that were true, then Protestants would have been "praying TO" their pastors in just the way that Catholics "pray TO" Mary - and you certainly know that is not the case at all.

In God's WORD, we're all asked to "pray for" one another (James 5:16), to "pray for" all men (1 Tim. 2:1), and "pray for" our civil/political leaders (1 Tim. 2:2), as well "pray for" our Christian leaders (Heb. 13:18). In none of these cases or any other are we asked to "PRAY TO" people! Please if you find the verse that asks us to "pray to" our pastors or other people dead or alive, could you kindly post them?

ebos:

Remember, we have One Mediator or Intercessor who is Christ, and Catholic and Protestants believe it, and so Mary and the Saints are not supposed to co-mediate as you claim.

Precisely - my persuasion is that Mary is not "co-mediatrix/co-redemptrix" with Christ. In the first instance, it is obvious that you're contradicting yourself in the same breath.

(a) You confuse "Mediator" and "Intercessor" as meaning the same thing when you say "we have One Mediator or Intercessor who is Christ". I have not confused either terms; but you've constantly connected them as being the same. Indeed, some dictionaries define both terms exactly the same, such as WordWeb Online Dictionary for "mediator" and "intercessor". However, from the verses I gave you earlier (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; and Matt. 26:28), can you honestly say that they are the same as used in those contexts? You may argue that they are the same; but why has it take you ages to answer the questions I offered thereto and let's see if Mary actually is the "co-mediatrix" of the New Covenant?

(b) Also, you acknowledge that we have ONE Mediator; and my question has constantly been: why contradict the "one" and make it "several" by ascribing the same thing to others and making them "CO-mediatrix"? The moment you do so, you immediately destroy your argument for the "ONE" by introducing the "CO-" to produce "several" mediators besides the "one". Do you not see how your argument denies 1 Tim. 2:5 that there is indeed "ONE" Mediator between God and men?

@ ebos,

ebos:

But I tell you that the Angels and the Saints in Heaven are very much alive and they also pray, nothing like necromancy. Mary is one of the Saints. There will be joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. This show the Saints in heaven knows what is happening on earth. Rev. 8 1-5 also made mention of the angels and the saints praying in heaven with Incense.

Revelation 8:1-5 does not teach that "the angels and the saints" in heaven are praying with incense. This unfortunatel twists should be carefully examined. The scenario depicted there is about the seven plagues or judgements that followed the unveiling of the seventh seal. Seven angels were given trumpets to sound the "plagues" (not "prayers" - see vs. 6ff); but only one angel offered "incence" with the prayers of ALL saints (vs. 3-5). The whole picture there is not about "the angels and the saints praying in heaven" as you put it; rather, as is evident from vs. 5, it was about judgements - ", and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake". Now ebos, do those things there sound like what you would receive in answer to "intercession"? People just like to snatch verses here and there to propound unfounded theories - but could you honestly say that Rev. 8 mentioned any angel in heaven praying?

Now what is the meaning of "the prayers of ALL saints" (vs. 3 & 4)? It points to the prayers of those who are on earth, rather than in heaven. We read a typical example in Psalm 141:2 - "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice." David was yet alive on earth when he wrote that verse; and you can find the same thing expressed throughout the Bible. Infact, you will find the Bible clearly says that those who are dead cannot affect the realities of life here on earth. No saint ever taught in the Bible that they would pray for people on earth after they depart this life! Let's see a few verses as to why the idea of "praying to" dead saints is contrary to God's will:

[list]Ecclesiates 9:5-6
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."[/list]

If it is true (as surely it is) that the dead cannot affect anything done under the sun, what is the grounds for believing that dead saints are interceding for anybody? You will not find any passage saying that saints in heaven are praying - and to argue that way is to try and propagate the same ideas of Catholicism which typically snatches texts out of contexts and arrive at something completely different.

ebos:

Also Rev. 6 Vs 10-11 the Saints in Heaven crying with a loud voice O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth. This is a prayer and it shows they can still pray on our behalf.

I know you'd find it hard to believe you're wrong if anyone explains its meaning to you. However, if you look at those verse carefully, you find their enquiry was about God's avenging them in divine judgement upon those dwelling on earth. You cannot use that verse and pressume what it does not teach - unless you've been calling for judgement upon yourself as dwelling on earth.

@ebos,

ebos:

Mary as Co-redemptrix – Now, think what would have been our fate today if Mary had doubted or rejected the words of Angel Gabriel.  In the OT, when it was said that Sarah would conceive and bear a child, she laughed – an indication of her doubt.  When it was told that Elizabeth would conceive and bear a child – Zechariah doubted.  You know the consequence.  But when Angel Gabriel told Mary that the Power of the Holy Spirit would overshadow her and she would conceive and bear a son who would be the Messiah of the world.  Mary humbly believed the words of the Angel Gabriel.  What a great faith?

 

And how does that prove that Mary is actually "co-redemptrix"?

ebos:

I know if you were Mary, you would have asked Angel Gabriel to show you where it was in the scripture that someone conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit before or to mention one name in the history of Israel who conceived without having intercourse.  Generations upon generations would have been victims of your show me in the scripture where someone conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Do you think that Mary’s faith did not contribute to redeem mankind?  She really contributed because her faith made it possible for us to have the long awaiting Messiah.

The jokes aside, just let me know if Catholics actually have thrown the Bible away and no longer adhere to its truth - afterall, we know that the Catholic Church re-iterated the same thing not too long ago.

Now, talkig about Mary contributing "to redeem mankind", please could you explain precisely what you mean by that? You haven't made any point other than trying to be sarcastic there.

ebos:

Mary as the Queen of Heaven -  Revelation Chapter 12.  Though, we (Catholics) believe the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars is Mary.  If you doubt it, then who is this woman?  It is not enough to doubt without stating alternative.

If you're interested in reading about God's mind concerning the "queen of heaven" (an ancient pagan ritual among God's people), please open your Bible to Jeremiah 7 and 44.

@ebos,

ebos:

Now, ebos interpretation of Rev. 12. (Quote ebos for now, and not Catholic) shebi you hear?

I hear.

ebos:

Verse 6 – the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God to avoid the dragon– Explanation,[/i] Mary fled to Egypt with Jesus to avoid Herod killing the Child Jesus.

Nope, not true! In Rev. 12:6 the Bible clearly shows that the woman fled into the wilderness ALONE - not "with Jesus", because already it was said in verse 5 that "her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" before she fled into the wilderness! Cross-check with verse 14.

ebos:

Verse 17 – the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Explanation, Catholics believe that Mary is their Mother, while the dragon (Satan) has been using false Pastors and their unaware followers to attack Catholics (who are the children of the “Woman” Mary), who keep the commandments of God and have testimony of Jesus Christ.  Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ Himself and it dates to the time of the Apostles and can give every account of what happened to Jesus both written and the message passed orally, no other Church can claim this.

Calm down ebos. If this is the interpretation you give to those verses, I'd like to remind you that it was actually the Roman Catholic Church that persecuted, tortured and killed millions of non-Catholics down through the ages. Many Catholics who have swallowed the duplicity of the Vatican to hide this fact have turned round to say that such historical accounts have been written by "enemies of the Catholic Church". We ask them to please bring the facts to the table and let's see who is being dishonest. What has the Catholic Church said thereto?

Second, it was not too long ago that Pope John Paul II publicly apologised to the world for the betrayal, massacres and persecution that the Catholic Church made against others. Among other things the Pope said was this:

[list]"We are asking pardon for the divisions among Christians, for the use of violence that some have committed in the service of truth, and for attitudes of mistrust and hostility assumed toward followers of other religions."[/list]

I don't see what he should be apolgising for if the hands of the Catholic Church was clean. But I'd like to reserve my posting of a brief summary of what Catholic figures have said in favour of persecuting non-Catholics. However, you may have to be reminded of a few of the "violence committed in the service of truth" as sponsored by the Catholic Church:

[list] * please ebos, what happened at the Inquisition? Has the stains of the bloody hands of Catholics been washed since the persecutions and brutality they meted out to others they considered "heretics" - because they did not swallow the corruptions of the Roman Catholic Church?

* what about the Catholic mob violence [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%E2%80%99s_Day_Massacre]against the Huguenots[/url] (French Calvinist Protestants)?

* did you forget so quickly about the Crusades?

I could go on and on; but just digest these few to point out that you interpretation of Rev. 12:17 ignores the facts on ground - and if any group has persecuted and murdered others in Christendom, the Catholic Church holds a first medal for that.

@ebos,

ebos:

Verse 13 and 14 – the dragon (Satan) saw he was defeated, he went to persecute the woman who gave birth to the male Child, but the woman was given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished – Explanation, Catholics believe the assumption of Mary into heaven, her place. Remember, the bible did not talk about the death and burial of Mary, could that be a mistake for a mother of God or the Apostles couldn’t explain what happened to Mary? The portions made the teaching of the assumption of Mary come true.

The Bible did not mention the death of several other key figures in the New Testament -

[list]* Joseph - the husband of Mary

* Joseph Barsabas (surnamed Justus - Acts 1:23)

* the apostles Mathew, Bartholomew, Thaddaeus[/list]

- did that also mean their "assumption" into heaven as well?

Now, when you mention Mary being the "Mother of God", I'd like you to please answer these questions directly:

* is it also right to say "God is the son of Mary" since you ascribe the title 'Mother of God to her'?

* is it also right to say that "God died" since you believe that Mary gave brith to 'God'?

I'm asking these questions in reference to what Catholicism teaches.

Mother of God – If Elizabeth who was filled with the Holy Spirit could address Mary as the Mother of God, who can argue it?  To argue it is a clear blasphemy. No long story on this one.

Please ebos, could you please read it as it is stated? This is who you argued about Mary being called "FULL of grace" and you never recovered from the daze of being shown how wrong you were! Elizabeth never called Mary "Mother of God". She rather addressed Mary as "the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43 - the Douay Rheims Bible, Catholic favourite English 'translation').

I'd like to know what you understand by Ellizabeth's appellation of Mary in that verse - and mirror your answers against the questions I left you above.

@ebos,

Now My Case with you (stated below)

If you doubt this explanation that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, then narrate your own explanation and tell us who is this woman clothed with sun in Heaven.

Good question. My understanding may not go down well with you - but all the same, here it is.

First, I'd like you to reflect on Revelation 12 as given in symbolic language rather than literal - as is consistent throughout the Book. Bearing that in mind, let's take a look at the points you mixed up:

[list]
vs. 4 - the 'dragon' is indeed the 'devil' (cf. Rev. 20:2)

vs. 5 - I believe the 'man child' represents Jesus Christ (cf. Rev. 19:15)

vs. 6 - the 'woman' here represents the Israel, and not Mary. Shocked?
I know some have a different view on this, and others suppose it refers to
the Church. My persuasion why it could not be the Church is because
no verse of Scripture teaches remotely that Christ came out of the Church;
or that the Church gave brith to Christ! Rather, that verse is speaking about
a nation from which came the "governor/ruler" that should rule the whole
world (cf. Heb. 7:14 and Mic. 5:2).

Of course, anyone is entitled to their opinions and interpretations of who
this woman could be. However, the Church is never said to have given birth
to Christ; and it could not be interpreted as Mary either. If you think it should,
then you would have to explain the mystery of: 'the sun,
and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars' as she is described in verse 1.

vs. 13 - the 'woman' who brought forth the 'man child' is none other than Israel.
It is clear that the devil has always tried to wipe out Israel completely
from the face of the earth - but has never succeeded in doing so.

vs. 14 - the 'wilderness' is not heaven as you misconstrued! This is clear as we
understand the man child 'was caught up to God' (vs. 5) while the woman
'fled into the wilderness' (vs. 6 & 14). Second, she was nourished for
a period of "a time, and times, and half a time" - and there's no mention
there that the 'man child' was with her when she fled!

vs. 17 - the 'remnant of her seed' is not the Catholic Church - but rather all those
'which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'
The Catholic Church often has made it clear that she does not abide by
God's commandments given in Scripture; and it is a known fact that Catholicism
has always persecuted those who make an appeal to God's WORD and the
testimony of Scripture - as I've pointed out early from history.[/list]

I've tried not to go into detail; but simply to offer alternative views as you requested to demonstrate how it is that your explanations are deeply flawed.

@ebos,

ebos:

Once more, I ask, what is the Pastor doing when he prays for you? Interceding or what?

I already explained that: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-75506.160.html#msg1496667)

ebos:

Was St Elizabeth hallucinating when she called Mary the Mother of God or she was filled or inspired by the Holy Spirit? If she was filled with the Holy Spirit, is it wise to take a queue of someone filled with the Holy Spirit or not?[i]

Also explained that Elizabeth did not call Mary "mother of God": (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-75506.160.html#msg1496692).

ebos:

However, I’m of the view that it might be unnecessary to continue this discussion if you fail to address the three questions. (Very much appreciate you). No harsh words from me, and I’m not used to it. Enjoy!

I deeply appreciate your responses - and as requested, I've addressed your questions to show that your premises are flawed.

Cheers.

W-W-W-What is all this??! I say what is all this!!!!

I demand to know the FACTS!!

FACTS! FACTS!! And nothing but FACTS!!!

O ye son of Adam, ebos, thy snivelling ass has been caught be-lie-eving ! Yes, that's right! You've be-lie-eved (been-lieing-to-the-daughters-of-Eve)  that Mary is the Mother of God since God is Yashua (falsely called Jesus by the Cau-asians, of course ). Now you's a baad Mutha. . . . . ! Why oh why, ebos *sniff*, why lie to the daughters of eve? Why be-lie-eve?
Why not just state the facts about the Annunaqis, the Teletubbies puffing la in Teletubbie Land with Nutty Nunu drinking sepe, why oh son of Adam?  Mayhap, could it be thou art an Annunaqi playa hater, accuser of the Order of the Teletubbies, grand perpertrator of the Be-Lie-Eve Hearsay [BLEH] ?

Kuns, oh, Kuns! Where art thou?! Thy image and teletubbie diapers are being tarnished!! To the rescue, good Sir Kuns!!!


pilgrim.1! At alert, oh daughter of eve! What say you to this be-lie-ever??!!

Will thou biliedam (be-lie-adam, that is lie to the Sons of Adam?)?

oh pilgrim, in retaliation shall it be then?

Till we witness the next bloody fray, lo, shall i be betwixt a tree and another, eating a plate of amala by iya salau's food canteen!!

Where o where wert thou?

Thou shewest up betimes
and carriest all the rhymes
which makest us to laff
lest we take a gaff!


In thy shewing up to the Annunaqis
we shouldest not forget our napkins
just in case we need the restrooms
when thou bringest all the hoodlums!

Wordsmith:

oh pilgrim, in retaliation shall it be then?

Nay, good gentle sir!
thou knowest how thy handmaid dealeth gently
for how goeth the task
we wouldest not know the road to the gentry!

Wordsmith:

Till we witness the next bloody fray, lo, shall i be betwixt a tree and another, eating a plate of amala by iya salau's food canteen!!

Aye, my honoured Oliver Twist!
if thou only would shew thy handmaid the way
thou shalt sit opposite my wrist
and there shalt thou see who's yet dismayed!


Na wa for you, Wordsmith! You no go kill me with laff for here!

@ Wordsmith

I like your choice of words but really is all this necessary?

ROFLMAO @ pilgrim.1!!!

i never knew thee could rhyme,
a relief o' jest, suffer not thy Catholic brethren to whine,
on this, thy shrewd Wordsmith  delivers a limerick,
a plate o' amala to rhyme with,
plus a foot up Kun's ass with my nikes!!

@ otokx:

lol, easy dude, i was just playin' around. Didn't mean ta derail the thread or anything. This thread just needed some air in it, thaz all