italo:

No! According to the discourse, he hadn't "sold everything he had and given the money to the poor".

That is a WORK!

Isn't it?

Why don't you just admit the truth?

Lol. So if he had sold everything and given the money to the poor, would he have been saved? Does this WORK, as you put it, accomplish eternal life for him? How about the ,''then follow me''. Is it not obvious that on his own merit he could never get salvation?

5solas:

Lol. So if he had sold everything and given the money to the poor, would he have been saved? Does this WORK, as you put it, accomplish eternal life for him? How about the ,''then follow me''. Is it not obvious that on his own merit he could never get salvation?

What about if he just skipped to the 'follow me' part without selling everything and giving the money to the poor?

Pastor AIO:

What about if he just skipped to the 'follow me' part without selling everything and giving the money to the poor?

^Let us consider the contrasting tales of two rich men:

In answering the young man's question in Matthew 19. . .Jesus said:

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Mat 19:21)

In the back and forth of this conversation, some of us have overlooked the young man's response which is recorded for posterity:

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (Mat 19:22)

The key test of faith is elucidated here: "Come and follow me". The young man was unable to forsake his wealth and follow Jesus. This story is told in all three synoptic gospels. And so. . .

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mat 16:24)

It is therefore interesting to note that in that rousing chapter on faith: we find these words:

Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. (Heb 11:26)

The other rich man in consideration was not told by Jesus to sell what he had, but rather of his own accord he got up and volunteered half his goods to the poor.

And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.  [Luk 19:8]

What do these two stories show us? They show us the nature of faith and affirm for us that:

. . .faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (Jas 2:17)

"Good" works cannot lead to faith and is not faith as seen in the life of the rich young man:

. . .if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Mat 19:17)

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (Mat 19:20)

In contrast the bible clearly shows that faith leads to good works. . .as James writes:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas 2:26)

And so we see the faith of Zacchaeus manifesting in good works. In school we were taught about the signs of life. . .and so it is with faith. A living faith will show forth good works (signs of life). Doing good works is as natural as breathing for the new creation in Christ. The new birth precedes the good works. . .not good works preceding being born from above. Our error lies in thinking that good works will precede faith and in supposing like the rich young ruler that what we consider to be "good works" is what God considers to be good works. It is not.

Jesus has already told us what the work of God is:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.(Joh 6:29)

Faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth as Lord is the basis for any good work that a Christian undertakes. . .for it is God that gives to us the good works that we do. We are not the ones that impel ourselves to do these good works. As it is written:

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)

So we see that God has beforehand ordained the good works we should walk in. As an example consider Jesus' reply to his disciples in John 9:

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (Joh 9:3)

And He goes on to say:

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. (Joh 9:4)

Also we may consider the symbolism of these verses:

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[Rev 19:8]

^^^@Aletheia

There is nothing in this post, as long as it is,  for my criticism. Great post! 

'Faith' is a noun. So 'KEEP the commandments' cannot be mere faith. 'SELL all you have and GIVE the money to the poor cannot be mere faith. "COME and FOLLOW me" cannot be mere faith. These capitalized words are all verbs and more importantly, they are all works. It doesn't matter how you guys try to change the name, a spade should be called a spade, not a spear.

You cannot be saved if you only have faith in Jesus and don't do good works.

Or maybe I should pose the same question to you guys and see your response:

Aletheia and 5solas, what must I do to inherit eternal life?

5solas:

^^^@Aletheia

There is nothing in this post, as long as it is,  for my criticism. Great post! 

My brother. . .

Sola Scriptura
Solus Christus
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria

---

italo:

'Faith' is a noun. So 'KEEP the commandments' cannot be mere faith. 'SELL all you have and GIVE the money to the poor cannot be mere faith. "COME and FOLLOW me" cannot be mere faith. These capitalized words are all verbs and more importantly, they are all works.

^Faith is not works. . .why is this difficult for you to apprehend? Is it your "works" that please God?

. . .and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. . .(Isa 64:6)

Or is it. . .

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6)

italo:

It doesn't matter how you guys try to change the name, a spade should be called a spade, not a spear.

^Faith is not works. . .signs of life do not constitute life. . .they only mark the presence of life.
Is it by our works that God quickened us in Christ while we were yet dead in our sins?

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [size=14pt]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/size] (Eph 2:5-9)

italo:

You cannot be saved if you only have faith in Jesus and don't do good works.

And what is faith? Do you understand faith to be mere assent of the Lordship of Christ? It is not. If you have genuine faith. . .then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow.

italo:

Or maybe I should pose the same question to you guys and see your response:

Aletheia and 5solas, what must I do to inherit eternal life?

^

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1Jn 2:17)

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (Joh 6:28)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29)

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:39-40)

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:39)

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Act 15:11)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Act 16:31)

aletheia:


^Faith is not works. . .why is this difficult for you to apprehend? Is it your "works" that please God?Or is it. . .
^Faith is not works. . .signs of life do not constitute life. . .they only mark the presence of life.
Is it by our works that God quickened us in Christ while we were yet dead in our sins?And what is faith? Do you understand faith to be mere assent of the Lordship of Christ? It is not. If you have genuine faith. . .then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow.
^

Who is the person that said 'faith is works'? Please tell me, I want to know. Or do you just feel like digressing?

Its the good works you do that make you to be considered to have "genuine faith" (as James points out. You can't be considered to have genuine faith if you haven't lived a good life to confirm it.

italo:

Who is the person that said 'faith is works'? Please tell me, I want to know.

You did. That is the import of these words of yours:

italo:

And there are still so-called christians who say you need not do anything to be saved. You just have to believe.

These Christians echo Jesus. . .for obviously you have forgotten these basic truth that even the children know:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

Moreover you ignore the message of John 1:12-13

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

italo:

Its the good works you do that make you to be considered to have "genuine faith". . .

So the Buddhist/Muslim etc who has "good works" has "genuine faith"?

In the year that King Uzziah died when Isaiah saw the vision of the Lord. . .tell me: How was his sin atoned for and his guilt taken away? Was it by means of his "works"? Here is a hint:

Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. (Isa 6:6-7)

To go back to an earlier assertion of yours:

italo:

You cannot be saved if you only have faith in Jesus and don't do good works.

Answer this question; What good works were done by this man mentioned here who received assurance of salvation from Jesus Himself:

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42-43

Understand this then: No man can add to the completed work of Jesus. Neither by word or deed. As it is written:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9
1. Saved by faith it says. . .not saved by faith and works.
2. If works were a part of the package. . .then it would no longer be the gift of God, but rather part payment for the works we have done.
3. So you see. . .Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And so this is the testimony of Abraham:

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:6

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:3-6

Or have you forgotten these very parable of Jesus Himself:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his bosom, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luk 18:10-14

I ask you this: was the publican justified by his "works". What about the other man's works of "I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."?

---

. . .but the just shall live by his faith.
Hab 2:4

Sola Fide

You guys just like confusing yourselves and others with many words.

FAITH ALONE is only found in one place in scripture. And it says there: 'faith alone, without works, cannot save'.

You can go ahead and spew any million words.

If a man prophesies, casts out demons and performs many miracles in Jesus name, can he be said to have no faith?

italo:

You guys just like confusing yourselves and others with many words.

FAITH ALONE is only found in one place in scripture. And it says there: 'faith alone, without works, cannot save'.

^Story, story. Show us here the "one place in scripture."

Instead of running to and fro like a spooked chicken; why don't you answer the questions I put to you, instead of pretending you didn't see them:

aletheia:

So the Buddhist/Muslim etc who has "good works" has "genuine faith"?

In the year that King Uzziah died when Isaiah saw the vision of the Lord. . .tell me: How was his sin atoned for and his guilt taken away? Was it by means of his "works"?

Answer this question; What good works were done by this man mentioned here who received assurance of salvation from Jesus Himself: Luke 23:42-43

I ask you this: was the publican justified by his "works". What about the other man's works of "I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."?

Please address the points raised by these questions and stop trying to give us the runaround.

aletheia:

My brother. . .

Sola Scriptura
Solus Christus
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria

---

That is my stand .

italo:

If a man prophesies, casts out demons and performs many miracles in Jesus name, can he be said to have no faith?

^According to Jesus' Himself, that is a possibility. . .you need to consider the parable of the wheat and tares.g54

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23

Notice how these works you profess are contrasted with the simple phrase: he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. What is the will of our Father in Heaven? Already answered in previous posts:

---

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1Jn 2:17)

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (Joh 6:28)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29)

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:39-40)

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:39)

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Act 15:11)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Act 16:31)

aletheia:

^Story, story. Show us here the [b]"one place in scripture"

James 2: 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

aletheia:

So the Buddhist/Muslim etc who has "good works" has "genuine faith"?

In the year that King Uzziah died when Isaiah saw the vision of the Lord. . .tell me: How was his sin atoned for and his guilt taken away? Was it by means of his "works"?

The muslim that does good works in Allah's name has genuine faith in Allah; the buddhist who does good works in Buddha's name has genuine faith in Buddha; so also the christian who does good works in Christ's name has genuine faith in Christ. He who does not good works in Christ's name has not genuine faith in Christ.

Isaiah's sins were atoned for after he did something. He said, in Isaiah 6:5: “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” If faith alone was needed, he would not have needed to say anything or feel or express any remorse. Because he always had faith, before and after the vision, so why was mercy not shown him before he said what he said?

italo:

The muslim that does good works in Allah's name has genuine faith in Allah; the buddhist who does good works in Buddha's name has genuine faith in Buddha; so also the christian who does good works in Christ's name has genuine faith in Christ. He who does not good works in Christ's name has not genuine faith in Christ.

^
What a cop-out. Again I ask you: What is faith? It would appear you are unsure what that means.

italo:

Isaiah's sins were atoned for after he did something. He said, in Isaiah 6:5: “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” If faith alone was needed, he would not have needed to say anything or feel or express any remorse. Because he always had faith, before and after the vision, so why was mercy not shown him before he said what he said?

^
Aren't you dizzy from turning round and round? So Isaiah's words is now equivalent to works? 

Since according to you: "If faith alone was needed, he would not have needed to say anything". . .show us the words spoken by Abraham in Genesis 15:6. Wouldn't that seem to indicate that faith alone is needed because Abraham spoke no words assenting to God's promise, rather it is written: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

I thought you built your whole argument on James epistle? Doesn't he write this:

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:16

So mere verbal assent is not works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jas 2:19

But here you are saying Isaiah's verbal assent is "works".

What work did Isaiah do to merit salvation? In your haste, did you miss the significance of this:

Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Isa 6:6-7

. . .so tell me: What does the altar represent? How did it make Isaiah holy and therefore acceptable to God? Here is a hint:

And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it. Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy. Exo 29:36-37

It seems you yet do not understand the nature of faith and its relationship to works, which is why you tie yourself up in contradictory knots. Now please answer these other questions which you have avoided:

Answer this question; What good works were done by this man mentioned here who received assurance of salvation from Jesus Himself: Luke 23:42-43

I ask you this: was the publican justified by his "works". What about the other man's works of "I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."?

Can you pls count the number of questions you have asked me in this one post? They are about ten. You just want to smother the truth with many words because I know that if I answer these ten, you'll only ask twenty more. Its only someone with a deceptive motive that asks this many questions in one instance. So until you are ready for a clear and transparent discussion on the role of faith and work in salvation, I still say:

James 2:24: "you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do, NOT by faith alone.

You can't shout down the truth!

italo:

Can you pls count the number of questions you have asked me in this one post? They are about ten. You just want to smother the truth with many words because I know that if I answer these ten, you'll only ask twenty more.

^You really don't know what you are talking about. I guess you are a pretender mouthing pious sounding platitudes just like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and Publican but with no experience of saving faith in Jesus. What stops you from itemizing the questions one by one and giving an answer? Doesn't the scripture say this?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1Pe 3:15

I provided you with biblical examples of men justified by faith apart from works and invited you to respond to these examples. And this is the silly excuse you bring. It is patently obvious you do not know the saving power of the gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

italo:

Its only someone with a deceptive motive that asks this many questions in one instance. So until you are ready for a clear and transparent discussion on the role of faith and work in salvation,

^Nonsense! Open the book of Job and see how many questions God asked Job. Read the gospels and see how Jesus often started his teaching with questions.
Typical Catholic (una too dey fear to open Bible). Afraid of asking questions. Afraid of studying your bible. So you think your "works" will get you into "Purgatory".

italo:

I still say:

James 2:24: "you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do, NOT by faith alone.

^Most assuredly, doing penance or praying to Mary, Michael etc is not acceptable works in God's sight. The work God requires is to believe in the one he has sent. And that is not Mary.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:5

italo:


You can't shout down the truth!

^You are right about that. Your popes can tell you how they tried and failed.

If you want to discuss Mary, Popes, purgatory etc, why dont you open other threads for each. i'm willing to discuss in a clear and transparent way all these topics. Not when i bring up a verse about faith and works, you start telling me about Popes etc. why are you scared to discuss one thing at a time?

this thread is still about the role of faith and works in salvation and the bible says:

James 2:24: "you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do, NOT by faith alone.

You can't shout down the truth!

aletheia:


^Nonsense! Open the book of Job and see how many questions God asked Job. Read the gospels and see how Jesus often started his teaching with questions.

have you not also seen in the gospels where Jesus refuses to answer a meaningless question?

Typical Catholic (una too dey fear to open Bible). Afraid of asking questions. Afraid of studying your bible. So you think your "works" will get you into "Purgatory".

we are afraid to study the bible but when i told you there's only one place in scripture where the bible mentions 'faith alone', you were going to argue with me that it didnt exist until i showed you

in short i can go on and get into a meaningless exchange of words with you and i am sure thats what you want but i am always more interested in getting to the heart of the matter

*pls in any subsequent posts, try to show some respect for my spiritual family - The Catholic Church. The Pope, Mary, the Angels, these are beings i hold sacred and in high esteem. you might not love them but pls show the minimum respect required for a meaningful insult_free discussion to take place. thanx*

and just incase you dont know where to start from, here's another option:

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


i dont see any mention of faith there but i am sure, as usual, you concoct what you want out of the passage

aletheia:

And what is faith? Do you understand faith to be mere assent of the Lordship of Christ? It is not. If you have genuine faith. . .then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow.

You made a distinction between 'genuine faith' and other type of 'faith' here. I hope you don't mind my asking, what makes a faith genuine? I am just trying to understand how it links up with the second bit of the post (i.e. "then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow".

AT night if you turn on the light you will see where all the tables and chairs are and you will be able to walk around without bumping into things.

The clear sight and smooth walking is a direct result of the light being turned on. If someone is still bumping into chairs then their light has not been turned on. You cannot claim to have the light switched on and keep bumping into walls.

When your light is on, it is evident to all. When you have faith it is evident to all from your actions.

If you say that you have faith but you insist that the only way that you can survive and meet your expenses is by stealing then you don't actually have faith cos faith tells you that you're taken care of, even down to the last hair on your head.

Life is like walking on troubled waters, and Christ is standing a little further away beckoning to us to come to him. With your eyes on him you stay afloat. However it is much too easy to get distracted by the waves that are building up around us. We started to react to the stormy waters and take our eyes off Christ. That is when we sink.

But "ye of little faith" is what Jesus said to Peter when he almost sank. He didn't say 'ye of no faith'.

One who has faith can still fall short of God's moral standard.

italo:

and just incase you dont know where to start from, here's another option. . .

^After you answer the questions I asked you concerning Isaiah, Abraham, the thief on the cross, the Pharisee and the Publican. . .then we can continue.

---

Zikkyy:

You made a distinction between 'genuine faith' and other type of 'faith' here. I hope you don't mind my asking, what makes a faith genuine? I am just trying to understand how it links up with the second bit of the post (i.e. "then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow".

The answer lies in the origin or source of that faith. Genuine faith comes from God as a gift. It cannot be willed into existence by men. So we see. . .

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:12-13

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

And so when you consider the parable of the wheat and tares. . .

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:24

The seed did not sow themselves but the man (representing Jesus Christ) sowed [size=14pt]good[/size] seed. The bearing of [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit (representing works) is hard-coded into the [size=14pt]good[/size] seed's DNA. The seed therefore has no choice but has a genetic imperative to bear [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:37-38

Since it is the Son of Man that sows the good seed; whence comes the men claiming responsibility for the faith they possess. We understand from scripture that no one is good except God.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:18

We are therefore given to understand that He is the source of the good seed. And even more directly we see. . .

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:16

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:4-5

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:11

. . .it says "they who are sanctified" (some versions read: "he who makes holy and those who are made holy". How does He make holy? I believe you know the answer to that. As Jesus told Nicodemus: You must be born again.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 2:20-21

Pastor AIO:

AT night if you turn on the light you will see where all the tables and chairs are and you will be able to walk around without bumping into things. 

The clear sight and smooth walking is a direct result of the light being turned on.  If someone is still bumping into chairs then their light has not been turned on.  You cannot claim to have the light switched on and keep bumping into walls. 

When your light is on, it is evident to all.  When you have faith it is evident to all from your actions.

If you say that you have faith but you insist that the only way that you can survive and meet your expenses is by stealing then you don't actually have faith cos faith tells you that you're taken care of, even down to the last hair on your head.

Life is like walking on troubled waters, and Christ is standing a little further away beckoning to us to come to him.  With your eyes on him you stay afloat.  However it is much too easy to get distracted by the waves that are building up around us.  We started to react to the stormy waters and take our eyes off Christ.  That is when we sink. 

^Do I take it that you agree that it is God that turns on the light?

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Co 4:6

Edited to remove this last line. . .

aletheia:

Genuine faith comes from God as a gift. It cannot be willed into existence by men.

So what is our role in the process? How then do we get to the state/stage that makes us eligible for this gift? this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

aletheia:

The bearing of [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit (representing works) is hard-coded into the [size=14pt]good[/size] seed's DNA. The seed therefore has no choice but has a genetic imperative to bear [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit.

This assumes that Christians are designed to function like robots. So what about the people being addressed in the James letter? If the ability for good works have been hard-coded into their DNA, then there won't be need for James writings.

Zikkyy:

So what is our role in the process? How then do we get to the state/stage that makes us eligible for this gift? this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born; even so we have no input into being born from above. Or how do you read John 1:13. If it says born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.. . .what then can be our role in the process?

Zikkyy:

. . .this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

Some might chose to reason that way. And Christians have struggled with this through the ages. But there are pertinent Bible verses that speak to this issue. . . .For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Since it's a gift and unearned; nothing we do can be sufficient payment for eternal life.

Consider this:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:28-30

When we truthfully examine ourselves, can we say in all conscience that we have loved the Lord God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind, and with all our strength. There have been times when our minds wandered, our hearts faltered and our strength waned (including today). . .at such times weren't we in transgression of this command. And being in transgression of this command everyday of our lives (because our love for God is not perfect), what can save us except the atoning blood of Jesus?

Also prayerfully consider the following words:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:13-16

Zikkyy:

This assumes that Christians are designed to function like robots. So what about the people being addressed in the James letter? If the ability for good works have been hard-coded into their DNA, then there won't be need for James writings.

Not robots. Christians are saved. That is the critical distinction. When a child is born. . .the neural pathways that will enable him to walk and run are present, but it needs to learn how to walk and run from the examples of others around him. Barring any untoward incident, the child will walk. He has to. And that's how it is with the Christian. He has been transformed. Dying in Christ and being born anew with a new, divine and holy nature. What is written in James etc are exhortations, reminders, examples for Christians to see and learn from. . .which is why the word "grow" occurs in the Bible.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:2
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:14-15

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:11
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:4

And so it is with the Christian. Like a newborn babe he is created by the Father. . .and like the newborn he needs to learn to walk in holiness. It is the walk in holiness that is characterized as works. . .but we know that this only arises because he has been made holy.

Still using the illustration of the child. He is dressed in a clean white robe which has already been washed spotless. He puts it on and goes out into the daily grind amidst admonitions to keep it unsoiled (what we see in scriptures). The truth is that the child's best efforts (his works) cannot keep the robe clean, rather only the One who cleaned it can keep it spotless.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:5

@ Italo

Brother, am supprised at your resolve not to understand and believe simply truth of the Word. I have tried explaining this to you from the scriptures in other posts. Now, after the expository explanation of aletheia; i was thinking you'll come to the knowledge of the truth. Now, i can only pray and believe for you.

Shalom!

aletheia:

When we truthfully examine ourselves, can we say in all conscience that we have loved the Lord God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind, and with all our strength. There have been times when our minds wandered, our hearts faltered and our strength waned (including today). . .at such times weren't we in transgression of this command. And being in transgression of this command everyday of our lives (because our love for God is not perfect), what can save us except the atoning blood of Jesus?

I very much understand this. Thank you.

aletheia:

Not robots. Christians are saved.

can't blame me for that. i was just responding to what i read you say.

aletheia:

Still using the illustration of the child. He is dressed in a clean white robe which has already been washed spotless. He puts it on and goes out into the daily grind amidst admonitions to keep it unsoiled (what we see in scriptures). The truth is that the child's best efforts (his works) cannot keep the robe clean, rather only the One who cleaned it can keep it spotless.

Okay.

aletheia:

When a child is born. . .the neural pathways that will enable him to walk and run are present, but it needs to learn how to walk and run from the examples of others around him. Barring any untoward incident, the child will walk.

This is the bit i don't understand. What i read you say here is that the child still need to make an effort to walk. It means we do have a say in the process.

aletheia:

What is written in James etc are exhortations, reminders, examples for Christians to see and learn from. . .which is why the word "grow" occurs in the Bible.

exhortations, reminders. All point to the need for a christian to put in his bit.

aletheia:

It is the walk in holiness that is characterized as works. . .but we know that this only arises because he has been made holy.

Would have loved some clarifications here, but don't want to take too much of your time.

aletheia:

It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born;

I understand (and agree with) the sovereign choice bit, but. . . . . .

aletheia:

It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born; [size=14pt]even so we have no input into being born from above.[/size] Or how do you read John 1:13. If it says born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.. . .[size=14pt]what then can be our role in the process?[/size]

We do have a role in the process, we present ourselves. or what do you have to say about crook that was converted on the cross?

Edit:

aletheia:

that's how it is with the Christian. He has been transformed. Dying in Christ and being born anew with a new, divine and holy nature.

You painting a beautiful picture

@eben 2

Aletheia and i are not having a discussion. You ask him a question, he doesn't give a satisfactory answer, he asks you 10 back. How can you make head-way like that?

What simple truth are you trying to make me believe? I ask because I'm not sure you even know my position.

And you who talks about simple truth, maybe you should start by telling me the simple truth on the question I asked you since last week in the other thread - which you have refused to answer?

Since the day you became born-again, have you committed any sin? YES or NO!

Are you sure am yet to answer that question of yours? If yes, then I pray the Holy Spirit will give you the grace to comprehend this simply things.