Zikkyy:

This is the bit i don't understand. What i read you say here is that the child still need to make an effort to walk. It means we do have a say in the process.

exhortations, reminders. All point to the need for a christian to put in his bit.

Would have loved some clarifications here, but don't want to take too much of your time.

^We often find this confusing because we do not gaze upward beyond ourselves to Christ Jesus. Too often we stop at Philippians 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Php 2:12

. . .without proceeding on to Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Php 2:13

A reading of verse 12 alone would imply that we work out our salvation ourselves but verse 13 shows us that it is God that works in us not only to will (i.e. desire to obey him) but also to actually do his will (i.e. obey him).
We cannot of our own accord will to do God's good pleasure. . .we are incapable of that. We are all bent out of shape by sin; like a badly crooked ruler, which can only draw misshapen lines despite its best intent and effort (i.e. even though the crooked ruler desires to draw straight lines; it cannot do so).

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:15
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:19

However once the ruler is made straight it can now draw straight lines. Or better yet, as it is written. . .

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:33

As the earlier parable shows; the Son of Man plants the good seed. The seed is good and so its fruit is good. Its fruit is good because the seed is good; not that the seed is good because the fruit is good. Rather, the fruit is the evidence that the seed is good. Did the seed make itself good of its own accord? No. It is God that saves the Christian out of the world, makes him good and appoints good works for him to do as a sign that he is saved.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:16

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:10

^The good works that Christians do has been prepared beforehand for them by God (cf. John 9:1-3). . .so how can we claim any role therein?

Zikkyy:

I understand (and agree with) the sovereign choice bit, but. . . . . .

We do have a role in the process, we present ourselves. or what do you have to say about crook that was converted on the cross?

^
. . .but did the thief on the cross really present himself? Did he play a role in his salvation? The thief died that day on the cross. He had no further opportunity after a lifetime of depravity to do good works. . .and yet he was saved. Don't you see in that incident the history of man. Both thieves were condemned to die, fully deserving of the penalty for their crimes. . .just as it is for all men. . .

For the wages of sin is death. . .Rom 6:23

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luk 23:41

The reason (in my opinion) we think we have a role to play is because we are clouded by traditions concerning the nature of the gospel of Jesus. We have fallen prey to decisionism. Men must always feel that their efforts count for something. God tells us that when it comes to salvation; our works don't matter. (Please prayerfully consider the parable of Matthew 20:1-16):

So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mat 20:8-10

Also see Jesus' gentle rebuke of Martha (Luke 10:38-42).

---

Just as I am, without one plea,
but that thy blood was shed for me,
and that thou bidst me come to thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

2. Just as I am, and waiting not
to rid my soul of one dark blot,
to thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

3. Just as I am, though tossed about
with many a conflict, many a doubt,
fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

4. Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
sight, riches, healing of the mind,
yea, all I need in thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

5. Just as I am, thou wilt receive,
wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
because thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

6. Just as I am, thy love unknown
hath broken every barrier down;
now, to be thine, yea thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

aletheia:

We often find this confusing because we do not gaze upward beyond ourselves to Christ Jesus. Too often we stop at Philippians 2:12. . .

aletheia:

. . .without proceeding on to Philippians 2:13

Well. . em. . . you forgot to add Philippians 2:14

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

As you can see they can decide to abandon the work.

But seriously, i wasn't thinking Philippians when i made the initial post. I was just responding to what i read you say. Your post sometimes appears to conflict with the message you're sending.

aletheia:

. . .but did the thief on the cross really present himself? Did he play a role in his salvation?

Yes he did, he made a request that Jesus should remember him when he (Jesus) get to his kingdom or was it the Holy Spirit talking?

aletheia:

The thief died that day on the cross. He had no further opportunity after a lifetime of depravity to do good works. . .and yet he was saved.

How do you expect a man nailed to the cross to do any additional work.

aletheia:

The reason (in my opinion) we think we have a role to play is because we are clouded by traditions concerning the nature of the gospel of Jesus. We have fallen prey to decisionism.

My understanding of your posts is that some people were pre-destined to go to heaven and others to hell. So i wonder why the apostles needed to preach the good news, or was that process a formality as well?

@zikkyy, I dey ur back gidigba!

Zikkyy:

Well. . em. . . you forgot to add Philippians 2:14

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

As you can see they can decide to abandon the work.

^First, God's purpose or work cannot be thwarted. If they decide to abandon the work (which are acts of obedience). . .

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Luk 19:40

Second, if they abandon the work, then it probably an indication that they were not saved to begin with. (By their fruits you shall know them). That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are. Haven't you ever considered this scriptures:

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:17

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:19

Zikkyy:

But seriously, i wasn't thinking Philippians when i made the initial post. I was just responding to what i read you say. Your post sometimes appears to conflict with the message you're sending.

^I fail to see the conflict.
God plants good seed. The good seed brings forth good fruits. . .because its genetic imperative compels it to produce good fruit. The arbiter of what constitutes good fruit/works is God himself, not man. In the parables lie the key to understanding the Kingdom as Jesus Christ said. Look again at the parable of the wheat and tares.
Most of us thinking of tares suppose that these plants are like the weeds growing on our grandfathers' farms - totally dissimilar in appearance. This is not so. The tares resemble the wheat and on occasion can be difficult to distinguish from wheat, hence the instruction:

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:29-30

Since the tares and the wheat grow together and look alike, we men are often seduced into thinking tares are wheat; not surprising given that:

. . .for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. 1 Sa 16:7

ISBE: Tares
târz (ζιζάνια, zizánia (Mat_13:25 ff), margin “darnel”): Zizania is equivalent to Arabic zuwān, the name given to several varieties of darnel of which Lolium temulentum, the “bearded darnel,” is the one most resembling wheat, and has been supposed to be degenerated wheat. On the near approach of harvest it is carefully weeded out from among the wheat by the women and children.

Zikkyy:

Yes he did, he made a request that Jesus should remember him when he (Jesus) get to his kingdom or was it the Holy Spirit talking?

^No man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him. The thief's request was an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, a working out of his faith in Jesus. . .do you realize both thieves asked Jesus to save them?! Why was only one saved? Look again at the passage.

Zikkyy:

How do you expect a man nailed to the cross to do any additional work.

^And doesn't this precisely show that no additional work is needed beyond Jesus Christ's blood for the salvation of souls? If the thief did no work and yet was saved. . .what does that tell us? God is able to save to the uttermost those who put their trust in him.

Zikkyy:

My understanding of your posts is that some people were pre-destined to go to heaven and others to hell. So i wonder why the apostles needed to preach the good news, or was that process a formality as well?

We are commanded to preach the gospel (It is one of the works ordained for us by God). . .and it is God who does the saving. If you believe that God knows all; why balk at the fact that from the beginning, God knew those who will have been saved at the last, and knowing this made provision for them to be saved.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:64

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:18

And to show that our works count for nothing. . .here is one the hard sayings of Jesus.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

aletheia:

Second, [size=14pt]if they abandon the work[/size], then it probably [size=14pt]an indication that they were not saved to begin with[/size]. (By their fruits you shall know them). That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are.

It’s also an indication that you have agreed (with italo) that no work = no salvation You have said it yourself that the man refusing the work is possible proof he cannot be saved. I guess the logic here is that we can't claim to have faith and not be able to show it in our works. Are we saved by just doing the work bit? i will say No, but you cannot have a work-less faith. And that's why i'll say faith and works are inseparable. I think it very safe to say there is no salvation by faith without works.

My main concern here is not actually the work bit but on your claim that people don't play any role in their salvation.

aletheia:

That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are.

Thank you jare. I agree with you 100%

aletheia:

I fail to see the conflict. 

It's not likely you will. cos you are the one making the post and zikkyy doing the reading. The reason viewers can analyse a game better than the players on the pitch

aletheia:

The thief's request was an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, a working out of his faith in Jesus

As you can see, it's difficult for you to talk about faith without mentioning 'works'

But back to my main concern, you said the thief request was an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord; This 'acknowledgement', was it based on 'orders from above'? (meaning the thief has no say in the matter and was only complying with a directive from above) or was it based on the thief's sincere reflection of his life or the situation and decided to make the request?

aletheia:

. .do you realize both thieves asked Jesus to save them?! Why was only one saved? Look again at the passage.

Luke 23:39 (NIV)
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

The comment from the second thief does not sound like he truly wish to be saved

aletheia:

And doesn't this precisely show that no additional work is needed beyond Jesus Christ's blood for the salvation of souls? If the thief did no work and yet was saved. . .what does that tell us?

No it doesn’t. But it tells me that God do not need to see my work for my salvation. I’ve been trying to avoid the discussion on works and faith cos I believe you guys have been saying the same thing, probably in different languages. The thing is you can’t have ‘genuine faith’ and not have works, they are inseparable (this you are aware of).

aletheia:

If you believe that God knows all; why balk at the fact that from the beginning, God knew those who will have been saved at the last, and knowing this made provision for them to be saved.

I can agree that God knew those who will have been saved at the last, but were those saved handpicked by God himself? based on some random sampling?

Hahaha! I like this.

Zikkyy:

It’s also an indication that you have agreed (with italo) that no work = no salvation You have said it yourself that the man refusing the work is possible proof he cannot be saved. I guess the logic here is that we can't claim to have faith and not be able to show it in our works. Are we saved by just doing the work bit? i will say No, but you cannot have a work-less faith. And that's why i'll say faith and works are inseparable. I think it very safe to say there is no salvation by faith without works.

So conclusion: Works do not save, but works are a sign of salvation. Therefore if you don't do works, then you cannot be saved. The works will no save you but it will allow us to know whether or not you are saved.

Zikkyy:

My main concern here is not actually the work bit but on your claim that people don't play any role in their salvation.
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.
.[/center]
I can agree that God knew those who will have been saved at the last, but were those saved handpicked by God himself? based on some random sampling?

^

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21

---

Pastor AIO:

So conclusion: Works do not save, but works are a sign of salvation.

^Yes.

aletheia:

^

---

^Yes.

Does this include the saintly works of the non christian?

^Non-christian is a broad term. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses etc were non-Christians.

Do you mean them?

aletheia:

^Non-christian is a broad term. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses etc were non-Christians.

Do you mean them?

No, these characters are lauded and respected by christians. I mean, for example, an australian aborigine shaman who is full of saintly deeds. people such as that.

Pastor AIO:

So conclusion:  Works do not save, but works are a sign of salvation.  Therefore if you don't do works, then you cannot be saved.  The works will no save you but it will allow us to know whether or not you are saved. 

Correct. Work (without faith) will not save you, and you cannot be saved if your faith does not produce works

aletheia:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21.

This does not address my concern. but no wahala, it's accepted. Thanks for your time.

Pastor AIO:

Does this include the saintly works of the non christian?

Pastor AIO:

. . .I mean, for example, an australian aborigine shaman who is full of saintly deeds.  people such as that.

I would have to say that the "saintly" works of the non christian will not save him, neither are they signs of his salvation.

---

Zikkyy:

Correct. Work (without faith) will not save you, and you cannot be saved if your faith does not produce works

^I would have agreed with this statement except for the portions in bold. Seems like splitting hairs, I know, but it leaves enough wiggle room for one to argue that works do save. Remember that you have not really given a satisfactory answer to the issue of the thief on the cross because his faith did not produce any visible work that we could see unless we agree with Jesus that the "work of God is to believe on the One he has sent". By this we can see that Faith = Belief in Jesus = The work of God. [John 6:29].
The way I understand the relationship between faith and works is as follows:
1. Only by faith are we saved (Eph 2:8-9).
2. If our faith is real. . .then it will produce good works
3. Only the works of real or genuine faith can be regarded as good works.
3. Only God knows what constitutes real faith. . .and thus what is good works.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[1Co 3:13-15]

4. Some works that appear to be good works to us are not. . .because the faith is false.

It may be I am too rigid in my understanding of faith.

Zikkyy:

This does not address my concern. but no wahala, it's accepted. Thanks for your time.

Thanks for your patience too. Do the following verses speak more directly to your concern?

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[2Ti 1:9]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[Titus 3:5]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[Rom 8:29-30]

These verses do suggest predestination by God in eternity past; how God works it out in time is beyond me. . .

You are so bent on dragging me into this salvation/work argument

aletheia:

It may be I am too rigid in my understanding of faith.

I think you are too rigid. Honestly i believe to a significant extent everybody is saying the same thing. One difference i observed is your view that the Christian can do no wrong, he is operating on autopilot/programmed mode (as set by the God). The apostles were not writing what you called exhortations, reminders e.t.c to brethren on auto pilot.

aletheia:

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, [size=14pt]not according to our works[/size], but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[2Ti 1:9]

aletheia:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[Titus 3:5]

These posts are not relevant for the faith/work discussion, you don't need them. If calling is based on works, Saul/Paul will be the last to be called. I don't know of anybody that believes we are saved by works. I've seen peeps argue two positions:
1. Saved by faith + work
2. Saved by faith only

To address my main concern, i'll need you to interpret the scriptures you are posting here. It's not self explanatory.

aletheia:

These verses do suggest predestination by God in eternity past; how God works it out in time is beyond me. . .

Yes they do suggest predestination, but am happy you did not attempt to interpret.

aletheia:

I would have agreed with this statement except for the portions in bold. Seems like splitting hairs, I know, but it leaves enough wiggle room for one to argue that works do save.

LOL haba, which one you dey na? you know my stand on the matter na. i am not one to shift ground just to get out of a difficult situation. If it turns out am wrong, i'll admit am wrong.

Zikkyy:
Are we saved by just doing the work bit? i will say No, but you cannot have a work-less faith. And that's why i'll say faith and works are inseparable.

aletheia:

Remember that you have not really given a satisfactory answer to the issue of the thief on the cross because his faith did not produce any visible work that we could see

The problem we are having here is that you've taken a position on my behalf; that one must work to be saved. But that's not what i've been saying. and  i think you've already answered the question. let see. . . . .

aletheia:

The way I understand the relationship between faith and works is as follows:
1. Only by faith are we saved (Eph 2:8-9).

This is like telling half the story. On its own it could be considered a misleading statement as some people will stop here. Thankfully, you did not.

aletheia:

2. If our faith is real. . .then it will produce good works

Thank you sir and if i consolidate i & 2, i'll have something like this;

Only by (genuine/real) faith that produces good works are we saved

So i don't see how this nullify the statement that "there is no salvation by faith without works" (that assuming the person was not already nailed to the cross )

aletheia:

3. Only God knows what constitutes real faith. . .and thus what is good works.

Chikenna! 

So we can re-visit the case of the chap on the cross (and my comment that God does need not to see my work for my salvation). He is not required to come down from the cross and perform any addition work for him to be saved. he has done the bit required for that situation, and God has seen the nature of his faith.

aletheia:

3. Only the works of real or genuine faith can be regarded as good works.

Don't know where you are going with this, so i have to ignore

aletheia:

4. Some works that appear to be good works to us are not. . .because the faith is false.

Thanks God for this. So you see the danger in saying "only by faith are we saved". Included in that statement is both the genuine and 'false' faith

I hope i have answered your question

Zikkyy:

I hope i have answered your question

^Yes. . .

What does the Bible teach about SALVATION?
The Bible is very clear about what it takes to become a Christian. Unfortunately, many in the world teach something different. Some think faith alone saves. Some think that a simple prayer to God will save them. Some think that being kind and loving is all that is needed. But what does the Bible say? That is what really matters.
Step 1: We Must HEAR the Word
Without first hearing the word of God we would never know that we are sinners and that the “wages of sin” is spiritual death (Romans 3:23; 6:23). We also wouldn’t know of Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins and our need for Him.
Step 2: We Must BELIEVE What We Hear
Merely hearing the word of God doesn’t save. We must believe what we hear, or we are not likely to obey the Bible’s commands. In John 8:24, Jesus says, “, if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” But belief itself is not enough. We learn this truth in Matthew 7:21. We will not be saved by merely declaring our belief w must “do” what God demands.
Step 3: We Must REPENT of Our Sins
Sin is what separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). Therefore, if we intend to seek God’s forgiveness, we must be willing to repent of our sins. Repentance means “turning away from sin” and making the effort to sin no more. If we aren’t willing to repent of our sins, we cannot be saved (Acts 3:19; Luke 13:3).
Step 4: We Must CONFESS Our Faith
Those that wish to be saved must confess their faith in Jesus. It was Jesus Christ Himself who said, “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32; cf. (Romans 10:9,10; I John 4:15).
Step 5: We Must Be BAPTIZED
There is considerable religious confusion about baptism. Some think that baptism isn’t necessary, others believe we are saved before we are baptized.
Note what the Bible says baptism does:
1. Baptism shows a good conscience to God (1 Peter 3:21)
2. Baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16; 1 Corinthians 6:11)
3. Baptism gives entry “into” Christ (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27)
In other words, our sins are not washed away, and we are not “in Christ” until we are baptized. Since baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), we are still in our sins (and lost) until we are baptized. We should also realize that baptism is a burial or immersion—it is not sprinkling (Romans 6:3,4)—and baptism is for believers, not infants (Mark 16:16).
Is baptism a work? In one sense it is, but Jesus says that belief is a work too (see John 6:29). Do we earn salvation by our works? No! But we must still do those works, including being baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. We are saved by the mercy and grace of God, but He demands that we be baptized to wash away our sins. He does the work of forgiving and saving us, if we follow His instructions.
Step 6: We Must Remain FAITHFUL
While baptism puts us into Christ and washes away our sins, we must still be obedient and faithful to God, otherwise, we will lose our souls. The Bible tells us “, Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10). Some suggest that once we are saved, we cannot be lost. Doesn’t that contradict what Hebrews 6:4-6 says?
Please study the verses above in your own Bible, pray to God for understanding, and give this some serious thought. Your soul depends on it!
I would love to study this matter further with you and answer any questions you may have. Please contact me within 48 hours from now through the phone number below, giving your personal details!
About The Author:
Bro. N. U. Gabriel is simply a Christian studying, practicing and teaching the Bible plus “How To Make $100 Online In 90 Minutes Or Less” and invites you to freely learn any of these methods at his training center or website, so you could earn genuine money to finance your God-given purpose(s). Call +2347043934839 to book for training now!

Thanks be to God! So aletheia has finally agreed that salvation is obtained by faith+works. Or has he?

^Read my posts again. Salvation is by faith alone.

Oh! On with the confusion then.