easy guys,the guy has 15 posts,he might just be 15 too .

nwando:

easy guys,the guy has 15 posts,he might just be 15 too .

Lol. . . that's classic! We go take am easy with am!

davidylan:

Muslims and their penchant for dishonesty!

Hehe. . they should start asking themselves what the career of Muhammad would have been like without the Bible!

pilgrim.1:

@Lakpenne,

For the sake of a little more honesty, do you care to stop pretending you already don't know that the extant codices of the many Qur'an variations were BURNT by the third Caliph Uthman? Dude, what you have in your hands is the political redaction of Uthman.

No ma!

He has not heard of such.
Or is deliberately trying to deceive and altaquiyyah things as usual.
He has not even heard that the goats under mohammed's bed had some of the CoCo yam leaves he scribbled allahs words on for brunch.

I had posted the various arabic Korans available today with different arabic characters with different meanings,I guess he missed that part.
And is busty thumping what some deceptive mallam told him in Koranic school,when history says otherwise.
I could handle the usual Islamic answer that "allah knows best" rather than blatant lies.
We have a people who can't even agree on what hadiths are true or false or those on the fence and the figures are ever increasing or decreasing depending the sects involved.
today na today!

@nwando,

nwando:

I had posted the various arabic Korans available today with different arabic characters with different meanings,I guess he missed that part.

Lol. . . I saw it - and let's refresh his memory (perhaps needs a 15-volt charger):

http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm#compare
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm#history

who says there's not different arabic Korans.
Think again.
which one does allah understand ?

Nne nwando, thank you very largely!

We were coming gradually to helping our esteemed Muslim friends see how very untennable their boast has been about an "uncorrupted" Qur'an! It's good all the same that you just land the thing. Gbam!!

Many blessings.

an excerpt from there.

I am often told by Muslims that the differences between the different Qur'ans are only a matter of dialect or pronunciation. However this is not the case. Subhii al-Saalih is an Islamic scholar in this area. He summarizes the differences into seven categories [3].

Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).
Differences in consonants.
Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.
What is clear from this list is that the differences are more than just differences in pronunciation or dialect.

CONCLUSION. We began this article by considering the following quote from a Muslim organisation about the Qur'an:

No other book in the world can match the Qur'an , The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. , No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)
I have checked this claim for myself by obtaining Qur'ans from different parts of the world and comparing them to see if they are absolutely identical. What my research has revealed is that the above claim about the Qur'an is wrong. The Qur'ans of the world are not absolutely identical. There are small differences in the basic letters, diacritical dots, and vowels. In fact there are Qur'ans which list these variants in their margin. This means that how the Qur'an is recited in different parts of the world is also not absolutely identical. Since the Qur'an has variation within its text and oral tradition it is not superior to the Bible. Please do not make or believe such exaggerated claims about the Qur'an.

nwando:

Please do not make or believe such exaggerated claims about the Qur'an.

I just wish people will be careful to see that highlight!

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61

Na Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

The man mohammed even said the koran 7 ways kpa kpa and this little boy is here trying to decieve adults.

nwando:

The man mohammed even said the koran 7 ways kpa kpa and this little boy is here trying to decieve adults.

dont blame him he probably has never even looked at his dusty copy of the quran. He's probably checking up the version as we speak.

davidylan:

don't blame him he probably has never even looked at his dusty copy of the quran. He's probably checking up the version as we speak.

No,
he is still washing himself with a plastic kettle before allah strikes him down for touching the Koran with dirty genitals

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 509, p. 477; book 61

Na Zaid-bin-Thabit:

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yama-ma had been killed (i.e. a number of the prophets companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said to me, "Umar has come to me and said: `Casualties were heavy among the Qurra of the Qur'an (ie those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the battle of Yama-ma, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra on other battle fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected'." I said to Umar, "How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?" Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project". Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest (persuaded me) for it and I began to realise the good idea which Umar had realised.

This hadith clearly shows that Muhammad never made a final collection of the Qur'an before his death, for when Abu Bakr was asked to collect the Qur'an into one volume he said: How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do? Muhammad did not make a final collection of the Qur'an because there were many of his companions whom he trusted to teach the Qur'an and these made their own collections:

goodnight pals.
Need to retire to bed.
have a great week.

you too lakpenne

@ lAKPENNE
You know what? whatever drug you are taking you better stop taking it. I don't see any improvement in your mental condition. what the holy crap are you talking of. God and this Jesus and thiss isss thiss tiiiss iiss thiss lliis. Bleep you do you know what you are talking about? You need a good beatings than will resurrect you mental facuty. Go to bed sick boy.

G'nite all.

nwando:

"This hadith clearly shows that Muhammad never made a final collection of the Qur'an before his death, for when Abu Bakr was asked to collect the Qur'an into one volume he said: How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do? Muhammad did not make a final collection of the Qur'an because there were many of his companions whom he trusted to teach the Qur'an and these made their own collections: "

Oh does it. See this is the problem, and Muslims do it too, with not knowing the context of a story. Do you think Muslims would say the Quran is preserved despite the interpretation of the haith cited above.

Lets assume the Quran was never written in volumes. So what? The Arabs had a rich and vibrant oral tradition, the same one which we use to pass own the Quran. We have the Quran in text form and yet, people take the time out to put it to pure memory.

A further reading of the compilation of the Quran tells you that the Quran actualy was written own of different parchments and other items - in its entirety. It was just never written down on one volume like Umar eventualy ordered. So, when they compiled it, then double an trippled checked people's memory with the written parchments to make sure it matched with the final volume. This was done shortly after the Prophet's death, unlike the Bible which was not even completed during Jesus' lifetime.

Also this story shows you how much respect the companions had for tradition. And also shows you the elasticity of the Shariah. the companions, who understood the sunnah best understood that although the Prophet never put the Quran in one volume, had he been alive, the exigent circumstances (dying at battle) would have likely made the Prophet to do the same.

So, nwando, there is the real history, in short, behind the complitation.

nwando:

"I had posted the various arabic Korans available today with different arabic characters with different meanings,I guess he missed that part.
And is busty thumping what some deceptive mallam told him in Koranic school,when history says otherwise."

This is indee delicious. Let us assume you are write about the Quran. Hello, the Bible is 100 times worse with defects. LOL, LOL, LOL. I am simply amused when Christians try to attack the Quran as being defective when their entire book as a bunch of post Jesus blatherings that atheistist have ripped to shreds.

Isn't that true, that your Bible has been shredde already? Just go here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/3138/bibleex1.htm

I know people try to do the same with the Quran but don't you see the point? What ever U say about the Quran, assuming its even true, ten more things can be said about the Bible. You guys kill me. Talking so much smack as if you have an authentic Book. Even the Jews reject your Bible.

Please stop the madness.

@Lakpenne,

Lakpenne:


This is indee delicious. Let us assume you are write about the Quran. Hello, the Bible is 100 times worse with defects. LOL, LOL, LOL. I am simply amused when Christians try to attack the Quran as being defective when their entire book as a bunch of post Jesus blatherings that atheistist have ripped to shreds.

You see how senseless your arguments are! It has always been a matter of competing to show which is better or "worse" - whether by 100% or far less. The reason you sound so blistered is simply because you are hoping that the less "worse" between the Qur'an and the Bible might be your ticket to heaven! Keep deceiving yourself.

Now, as to "atheists" have ripped the Bible to shreds, Muslims really like that one. How many such rippings do you know about that have not been answered? What about the fact that nobody is running to atheistic and skeptic sites to plagiarize articles just to rip the Qur'an to shreds?

I've asked you guys simple questions - and I'm still asking; but so far, without the assistance of your atheistic clapper-trap, we haven't read answers as yet from your camp!

If the Bible has been ripped to shreds at all, and you guys can be so low in your IQ to claim that the Torah and Injil are lost and yet not know when exactly that happened, could you tell us how Muhammad came about the dubious claim that he was prophesied in the same Bible you hope atheists have ripped apart?

The ripping apart then would simply start with Muhammad - for then, he would need to settle scores with your applauded atheists before sending you his errand boys to make as much noise for trying to smuggle him into the same Bible that you have a problem with.

desperation eh?
This discussion went off this tangent because you claimed the Koran was original,as sent down by allah but we have poked ) giant holes into that theory.
Can't you see how sober you now sound.
The average man has a problem relaying a simple story word for word and yet you'll have me believe that men were able to do what allah's prophet was unable to do.

now read this.

Despite the possibility of creating a false Quran, Allah or Muhammad never thought about the importance of compiling the Quran and putting the verses in the form of a book. Apparently, the foremost method of preserving the Quran was memorization. Some verses were written on stones, bones and leaves, without realizing the fact that goats love to eat leaves. Yes, a darned animal with four legs known as a goat ate a piece of the all-powerful Allah’s Quran.

“Narrated by Hazrat Ā’ishah that ayat-e-Rajm and ayat Raza’at were revealed, they were written on something. I kept them under the cart, meanwhile the holy prophet died and we became busy and one GOAT came and ATE those ayyat” (Ibn-e-Maja).  

so you see they were not all memorized,they were written and a goat ate them

@Lakpenne,

I get it now. Your hide and seek is a sure sign of your insecurity. I should apologise to those who warned me that you're a toddler stealing internet access at home. . . that's why all the bloviates coming from you!

Anyhow, when you grow some Muslim beards, let's talk!


Tsk-tsk! I had seriously hoped that you would come back denying that Muslims had referred to Muhammad as "lord" so I could serve you the three point counter as promised. When you next get a chance to steal some more internet time, please quickly leave me your denials and let me oblige you some. It's easy to deny, really. . . just post: "LOL. . .LOL" and I'll understand!

Lol. . . @nwando,

nwando:

desperation eh?
This discussion went off this tangent because you claimed the Koran was original,as sent down by allah but we have poked ) giant holes into that theory.

Hehe. . . I didn't quite prepare to laugh so hard! Rge fellow is simply a comedian!

I actually did go his geocities site and look what I found about the BIble being ripped apart.

After the Noah's flood, God said "I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth (that he won't send another flood)" (Gen 9:13 NIV)
So before the floods there were no rainbows.

Whilst Sodom & Gomorrah were being destroyed, Lot's wife (who was running away with the rest of the clan) looked back and became a pillar of salt. (Gen 19:26 NIV)

Genetic engineering, Philistine style;
", there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, " (1 Chronicles 20:6 NIV)
Did he also have 3 testicles?

I no fit laugh.

A little bit of history for my dear muslim friend.

After Muhammad’s death in 632 AD, Abu Bakr became the ruler of the newly born Islamic nation. According to Sahi Bukhari (V6, B61, N509), narrated by Zaid bin Thabit, he was asked by Abu Bakr to collect the Quranic verses. Umar, the next ruler in line, brought this issue to Abu Bakr’s attention because many of the Qurra’ (those who knew the Quran by heart) were killed in the battle of Yal-mama. Apparently, Mama Allah did not want to save them and the verses they memorized. Umar was afraid of losing a large part of the Quran if more Qurra’ died. Zaid bin Thabit was honest about his intention; he asked Abu Bakr a valid question, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr made a political comment, "By Allah, it is a good project." Zaid bin Thabit collected verses, as much as he could, and Abu Bakr preserved the relics until he died.

Abu Bakr ruled only for 27 months and died in 634 AD. The second Caliph Umar took over and remained in power until 644 AD, when he was assassinated in an Islamic fashion. The relics stayed with him and passed to his daughter Hafsa, instead of giving them to the third Caliph Uthman. Finally, several years after Muhammad’s death, Uthman compiled the Quran and burned all other scriptures that existed. Ibn Abi Dawud records, “Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas to have testified: ‘I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the proscribed copies; not a one spoke out against him.’ Ali commented, ‘If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same.’”

Burning the Quran is a serious matter. If we try to burn a Quran today, Muslims will burn half of the world.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SherKhan51214p2.htm

maybe we should remind the geocities bible "rippers" that indeed people with 6 fingers and 6 toes exist - i had one as a classmate in secondary school . . . i didnt check to see if he had 3 testicles though. I'll make sure to ask when next we cross paths.

As for there being no rainbow before the flood . . . a thorough study of the bible would inform the reader that there indeed had never been rain before the flood. Genesis 2: 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Before someone comes up with another "bible ripping" question of how the earth was watered without rain, just look at verse 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Lakpenne, when next you want to copy and paste more examples of "bible ripping", do so with some modicum of intelligence.

Hahahahohohehe!!

Genetic engineering, Philistine style;
", there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, " (1 Chronicles 20:6 NIV)
Did he also have 3 testicles?

Make I laugh again O!

Seriously, Lekpenne, is that the bloviate you call "ripping apart" of the Bible? M-e-n, you're a star comedian!!

Have you forgotten that Muhammad was a fantastic story teller? Please, how do we explain the one about where Muhammad reported that Moses slapped the angel of death so severely and thereby wounding the eye of the angel?

What about Muhammad's story of a giant camel so many feet tall?

No, I'm not an atheist, and not even trying to rip the Qur'an apart! I just want to learn from you!!

pilgrim:

"Have you forgotten that Muhammad was a fantastic story teller? Please, how do we explain the one about where Muhammad reported that Moses slapped the angel of death so severely and thereby wounding the eye of the angel?"

Oh how about the story in the Bible where Moses or someone fought God or something ridiculous like that. OR even how the Angel, which has no free will, revolte and became Satan. Or how a Prophet exposed himself to his child. Or, etc, etc. Like I said, say one thing about the Quran or hadith and we can say two thousand about your Bible. Admittedly, and lucky for you, I don't remmeber much of my Bible stories like I used to .

Question to all of you:

1. "what is so special about the Bible that you think its better than the Quran"

2. "what is so special about Jesus that we should believe he is God or son or God. Others have made the same claim before and after him of being God or the son of. What distinguishes Jesus from them? (take Haillie Sellassie as I pointed out before)

3. Still waiting for someone to show me how God is the uncreated transcendant by definition and then becomes the created ephemeral. Yes God can do anything but there are somethings that are just not part of God's law so therefore they are impossible.

For example, can God create a four sided triangle? of course not. But, I thought God could do anything. Yes, but what you are asking is based on a false premise because a triangle by definition is three sided so of course there is no such thing like a four sided triangle, that would be a parallelogram of some sorts.

Likewise, there is no such thing as a created ephemeral God, that would be a created thing of some sort but definitely not God as God by definition must be transcendant in his Majesty and eternally uncreated without a need for a mover.

Please answer my questions since you are so smart.

Lakpenne:

Oh how about the story in the Bible where Moses or someone fought God or something ridiculous like that. OR even how the Angel, which has no free will, revolte and became Satan. Or how a Prophet exposed himself to his child. Or, etc, etc. Like I said, say one thing about the Quran or hadith and we can say two thousand about your Bible. Admittedly, and lucky for you, I don't remmeber much of my Bible stories like I used to .

puerile! Rather than address the question you dribble around with the muslim dishonest approach of oh the bible has worse things too. Remember that the quran believes that God is so immense he can't even be seen by his slaves . . . aha not so my bible! God is so immense that we cannot comprehend His greatness BUT He is so humble that He took on human flesh that He might dine with us, sleep with us and die on the cross for our redemption.
the same God who is so great also came down and wrestled with Jacob . . . that same God would come in the cool of the evening to walk the garden side by side with Adam, aye it was that same God who would speak face to face with Moses and Abraham . . . aha the same almighty Baba who chose to engage Abraham in an argument as regards the people of soddom and gomorrah.

It is this God that muslims can never understand. I don't blame them, their own god thinks so highly of himself that it is beneath him to reach out to those he claimed to have created. . .

Lakpenne:

Question to all of you:

1. "what is so special about the Bible that you think its better than the Quran"

If your understanding of faith, salvation and eternity is reduced to "my quran is better than your bible" then you are of all men most spiritually blind.

Lakpenne:

2. "what is so special about Jesus that we should believe he is God or son or God. Others have made the same claim before and after him of being God or the son of. What distinguishes Jesus from them? (take Haillie Sellassie as I pointed out before)

To believe in Jesus Christ as God is entirely optional. The bible makes it expressly clear - whomsoever believeth. Dear lakpenne, it is not by force.

Lakpenne:

3. Still waiting for someone to show me how God is the uncreated transcendant by definition and then becomes the created ephemeral. Yes God can do anything but there are somethings that are just not part of God's law so therefore they are impossible.

No you are not waiting for anything if not you would have seen the numerous explanations that litter this thread and others. Seeing indeed you see but you cannot percieve.

Lakpenne:

For example, can God create a four sided triangle? of course not. But, I thought God could do anything. Yes, but what you are asking is based on a false premise because a triangle by definition is three sided so of course there is no such thing like a four sided triangle, that would be a parallelogram of some sorts.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Perhaps your own "god" is limited by the laws of geometry and common sense. Thankfully mine isnt.

Lakpenne:

Likewise, there is no such thing as a created ephemeral God, that would be a created thing of some sort but definitely not God as God by definition must be transcendant in his Majesty and eternally uncreated without a need for a mover.

all hail "god's" very own press secretary.  Perhaps you can enlighten us more on the many other things your "god" can never do.
You claim your god is immense and yet he is limited by your own logical definitions of his percieved greatness?

Lakpenne:

pilgrim:

Question to all of you:

1. "what is so special about the Bible that you think its better than the Quran"

2. "what is so special about Jesus that we should believe he is God or son or God. Others have made the same claim before and after him of being God or the son of. What distinguishes Jesus from them? (take Haillie Sellassie as I pointed out before)

3. Still waiting for someone to show me how God is the uncreated transcendant by definition and then becomes the created ephemeral. Yes God can do anything but there are somethings that are just not part of God's law so therefore they are impossible.

For example, can God create a four sided triangle? of course not. But, I thought God could do anything. Yes, but what you are asking is based on a false premise because a triangle by definition is three sided so of course there is no such thing like a four sided triangle, that would be a parallelogram of some sorts.

Likewise, there is no such thing as a created ephemeral God, that would be a created thing of some sort but definitely not God as God by definition must be transcendant in his Majesty and eternally uncreated without a need for a mover.

Please answer my questions since you are so smart.

 Your questions already have been answered,maybe it's not the answer you wanted.
Tough luck!
The bible is where my answers are regarding the deity of Christ, including his claims of himself.
let me help you again.
You may need a Bible to read the texts


THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST

.I.     Jesus Christ was more than a "good man." He is God.
              Philippians 2:6
              Hebrews 1:8

      [b] A.    He Himself claimed to be God.
                      John 4:26; 8:23; 10:30; 13:13; 14:7-10

       B.    He accepted worship.
                      Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 28:9, 17
                      Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 5:22, 23; John 9:38

       C.    He claimed the power and authority to forgive sin.
                      Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:7

       D.    "He was God manifest in the flesh" (l Timothy 3:16), "for in
               Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"
               (Colossians 2:9).

       E.    "God was in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19), Who is "the
              brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, "
              (Hebrews 1:3).

       F.   Jesus is therefore throughout scripture referred to as the
             "image of God."
                     John 1:18; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15
                     Philippians 2:6

II.    By the names attributed to him in scripture it can be seen that
       Jesus Christ was truly God as well as man.

      A.    "Mighty God."   Isaiah 9:6
      B.    The Word of God.   John 1:1; Revelation 19:13, 16
      C.    "Immanuel," meaning "God with us."   Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
      D.    The Almighty.   Revelation 1:8
      E .   The "I Am."   John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14
      F.    "My Lord and my God!"   John 20:28
      G.     The "Alpha and Omega" (first and last).  
                    Isaiah 44:6; 48:12; Revelation 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13
      H.    Son of God.   Matthew 17:5; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35; 1 John 4:15


III.   Jesus Christ possessed all the attributes of God.

       A.    He was (is) omniscient (all-knowing).
                       John 4:25, 26, 29; 6:64; 13:11; 19:28; 21:17

               1.    He knew their thoughts.
                              Matthew 9:4; 12:25; 22:18; Mark 2:8; 12:15
                              Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17
                              John 2:24, 25; 5:42; 6:6; 16:19, 30; Acts 1:24

                2.  He even foretold His own death by crucifixion.
                              Matthew 16:21; 17:22, 23; 20:18, 19
                              John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32-33

         B.   He is omnipresent (everywhere).
                      Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Ephesians 1:23

         C.   He is omnipotent (all-powerful).
                       Daniel 7:13, 14; Matthew 28:18
                       John 3:31, 35; 17:2; 1 Peter 3:22

          D.   He is eternal.
                        1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 1:4, 5

                 1.    Scripture claims that Christ was pre-existent to the
                        creation of the world, that He was present with the
                        Father from the beginning of time.
                               Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 (",  us ,  our ,  our , "
                               Proverbs 8:22-36; Isaiah 48:12, 16; Micah 5:2
                               John 1:1-3, 10; 3:13; 6:62; 17:5, 24; 8:35, 58
                               1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Philippians 2:5
                               Colossians 1:15-19
                               Romans 11:36; Hebrews 1:2; Revelation 3:14

                  2.   Jesus is "the first and the last" (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12;
                        Revelation 1:11, 17), the "Alpha and Omega, the
                        beginning and the end" (Revelation 1:8, 11; 2:8;
                        21:6; 22:13).

          E.    He is unchanging.
                        Hebrews 13:8
                        John 8:58; 18:6 with Exodus 3:14 ("I AM"
                        Revelation 1:17, 18 ("the Living One"

IV.    Some claim that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is proof that
        He could not have been God. What evidence is given in scripture
        to refute this argument?

         A.    Jesus' death on the cross was not due to failure or weakness
                on His part. It was entirely voluntary.
                          Matthew 26:39, 42; Luke 22:42; John 10:17, 18
                          Philippians 2:5-9

          B.    It was the will of God that He suffer and die.
                          Isaiah 53:10   "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, "

          C.    He even foretold His own death by crucifixion.
                           Matthew 20:18, 19; 16:21; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:32-34
                           John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32, 33

          D.    He said that He had the power to lay down His life and had
                  power to take it back again.
                          John 10:17, 18

           E.    It was not necessary for Him to be defended, He said, for He
                  could have called upon the Father to send 10,000 legions of
                  angels for His protection.
                          Matthew 26:50-54

           F.   He overcame death by rising again. The resurrection alone
                 should be sufficient evidence of His divinity. (See Section
                 VI-E).

V.    Why was it necessary that He should become a man and die?

        A.     ",  that through death He might destroy him that had the
                 power of death, that is, the devil."
                           Hebrews 2:14

        B.    To "deliver them who through fear of death were all their
                lifetime subject to ."
                          Hebrews 2:15

        C.    ",  that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things
                pertaining to God ,  in that He Himself hath suffered being
                tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."
                          Hebrews 2:17, 18; 4:14-16

         D.   ",  to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
                          Hebrews 2:17



[/b]

Now let me help you with a Bible too.
You can even listen to an audio  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Wow! Every thing, is being used to a mural of Jesus, as a God and, or son of God!
Everything, except the 'Gospel,' which Jesus preached about the places!

Is it because there is no record of it or it is actually contradictory to the four, 'Acoording to Gospels,'
in the Bible today? Where Old testament is used, we do not have a clear picture of it referencing
Jesus of Mary. At best, every major Jewish Prophet, after the verses used could fit the image
our Christian friends want us to believe is particularly Jesus! They quote Isiah, to no clear indication.

In the New Testament, we find this God beginning a Bigger God, to take the cup off his head. Yet some claimed
that he went to his death willingly.

But we see from the Bible that before he expire and gave up the 'ghost,' he cried out as if it was a
surprising experience he is going through, even though, the Christians claimed that he was actually
created for this same event! Should a one who already knew the whole story, cried out, 'My God, My God, why has
thou forsaken me?'

We see that he did not in the crucialhour, he did not use Father, rather he used 'God!' Will a true believer of
God say a sentence, which may connote a a low level of faith in God? The Why in the My God, My God why has thou forsaken me,
indicates doubtful faith or believe in God.

This could not be Jesus son of Mary!

Pilgrim:  I am shocked at UR response.  Since you rely on the Bible for something that makes no logical sense, I think its fair that if I am questioned about something that may not seem to make sense that I just say the Quran said so.  That's fair I guess.  Anyway, what you have sited below is no different than what others have said before Jesus and more important, we don't even know if its true.

Also, how come neither you nor David have responded to the Biblical verses I sited in which Jesus said don't worship me, worship God/Father.  So, you said:

A.    He Himself claimed to be God. (Umm, so did all the others, and the Pharoah, etc)
                      John 4:26; 8:23; 10:30; 13:13; 14:7-10

       B.    He accepted worship. (so did the Pharoah)
                      Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 28:9, 17
                      Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 5:22, 23; John 9:38

       C.    He claimed the power and authority to forgive sin. (so did the Pharoah and Nimrod and other king gods)                       Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:7

       D.    "He was God manifest in the flesh" (l Timothy 3:16), "for in
               Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"
               (Colossians 2:9). (So claimed the Pharoah)

       E.    "God was in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19), Who is "the
              brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, "
              (Hebrews 1:3).  (So said the Pharoah)

       F.   Jesus is therefore throughout scripture referred to as the
             "image of God."
                     John 1:18; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15
                     Philippians 2:6  (And the Pharoah said that I am your lord most high)[/b]II.    By the names attributed to him in scripture it can be seen that
       Jesus Christ was truly God as well as man. ([b]God as well as man?  oximoronic.  one or the other, not both.)
      A.    "Mighty God."   Isaiah 9:6
      B.    The Word of God.   John 1:1; Revelation 19:13, 16
      C.    "Immanuel," meaning "God with us."   Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
      D.    The Almighty.   Revelation 1:8
      E .   The "I Am."   John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14
      F.    "My Lord and my God!"   John 20:28
      G.     The "Alpha and Omega" (first and last).  
                    Isaiah 44:6; 48:12; Revelation 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13
      H.    Son of God.   Matthew 17:5; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35; 1 John 4:15

    -  He also said do  not worship me, worhsip God/Father

III.   Jesus Christ possessed all the attributes of God.

       A.    He was (is) omniscient (all-knowing). (was he, but he sought help from God when in distress)                        John 4:25, 26, 29; 6:64; 13:11; 19:28; 21:17

               1.    He knew their thoughts. (by the Grace of God) (did he not know the devil was coming to tempt him?)                               Matthew 9:4; 12:25; 22:18; Mark 2:8; 12:15
                              Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17
                              John 2:24, 25; 5:42; 6:6; 16:19, 30; Acts 1:24

                2.  He even foretold His own death by crucifixion. (By the Grace of God, how is this any more special than split the sea)                               Matthew 16:21; 17:22, 23; 20:18, 19
                              John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32-33

         B.   He is omnipresent (everywhere). (yet, he was always in one place when on earth)                      Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Ephesians 1:23

         C.   He is omnipotent (all-powerful). (then who was he crying out to)
                       Daniel 7:13, 14; Matthew 28:18
                       John 3:31, 35; 17:2; 1 Peter 3:22

          D.   He is eternal. (yet he died and was ressurected, then died again and will return, LOL)                         1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 1:4, 5

                 1.    Scripture claims that Christ was pre-existent to the
                        creation of the world, that He was present with the
                        Father from the beginning of time.
                               Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 (",  us ,  our ,  our , "
                               Proverbs 8:22-36; Isaiah 48:12, 16; Micah 5:2
                               John 1:1-3, 10; 3:13; 6:62; 17:5, 24; 8:35, 58
                               1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Philippians 2:5
                               Colossians 1:15-19
                               Romans 11:36; Hebrews 1:2; Revelation 3:14
        AND?  Some crazy Muslims say Muhammad was the first soul created.  As nice as that sounds and makes Muhammad sound all that much more special, its not true and we reject such nonesense.

                  2.   Jesus is "the first and the last" (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12;
                        Revelation 1:11, 17), the "Alpha and Omega, the
                        beginning and the end" (Revelation 1:8, 11; 2:8;
                        21:6; 22:13).

          E.    He is unchanging.
                        Hebrews 13:8
                        John 8:58; 18:6 with Exodus 3:14 ("I AM"
                        Revelation 1:17, 18 ("the Living One"

(Sounds more like God than a dead man)

IV.    Some claim that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is proof that
        He could not have been God. What evidence is given in scripture
        to refute this argument?

         A.    Jesus' death on the cross was not due to failure or weakness
                on His part. It was entirely voluntary.
                          Matthew 26:39, 42; Luke 22:42; John 10:17, 18
                          Philippians 2:5-9

          B.    It was the will of God that He suffer and die. (will of God or Jesus, or both, or neither)                           Isaiah 53:10   "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, "

          C.    He even foretold His own death by crucifixion.
                           Matthew 20:18, 19; 16:21; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:32-34
                           John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32, 33

          D.    He said that He had the power to lay down His life and had
                  power to take it back again.
                          John 10:17, 18

           E.    It was not necessary for Him to be defended, He said, for He
                  could have called upon the Father to send 10,000 legions of
                  angels for His protection.
                          Matthew 26:50-54

           F.   He overcame death by rising again. The resurrection alone
                 should be sufficient evidence of His divinity. (See Section
                 VI-E).

V.    Why was it necessary that He should become a man and die?

        A.     ",  that through death He might destroy him that had the
                 power of death, that is, the devil."
                           Hebrews 2:14

        B.    To "deliver them who through fear of death were all their
                lifetime subject to ."
                          Hebrews 2:15

        C.    ",  that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things
                pertaining to God ,  in that He Himself hath suffered being
                tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."
                          Hebrews 2:17, 18; 4:14-16

         D.   ",  to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
                          Hebrews 2:17

Why can't God just do that without the whole song and dance, why does he have to come all the way down here to die.  sounds weak to me dude.  He is Almighty, Sublime, Akbar, Transcendant, Life, Without death, Without sleep or slumber, Everything in the Heavens and Earth praises Him.  

We Muslims Glorify and Magnify His greatness while Christians debase and belittle His Majesty.

Davidylan:
U said:

"
Re: Tawhid: The Issue Christians Avoid
« #57 on: Today at 07:55:54 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
Oh how about the story in the Bible where Moses or someone fought God or something ridiculous like that. OR even how the Angel, which has no free will, revolte and became Satan. Or how a Prophet exposed himself to his child. Or, etc, etc. Like I said, say one thing about the Quran or hadith and we can say two thousand about your Bible. Admittedly, and lucky for you, I don't remmeber much of my Bible stories like I used to .


puerile! Rather than address the question you dribble around with the muslim dishonest approach of oh the bible has worse things too. Remember that the quran believes that God is so immense he can't even be seen by his slaves . . . aha not so my bible! God is so immense that we cannot comprehend His greatness BUT He is so humble that He took on human flesh that He might dine with us, sleep with us and die on the cross for our redemption.
the same God who is so great also came down and wrestled with Jacob . . . that same God would come in the cool of the evening to walk the garden side by side with Adam, aye it was that same God who would speak face to face with Moses and Abraham . . . aha the same almighty Baba who chose to engage Abraham in an argument as regards the people of soddom and gomorrah.

It is this God that muslims can never understand. I don't blame them, their own god thinks so highly of himself that it is beneath him to reach out to those he claimed to have created. . .


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
Question to all of you:

1. "what is so special about the Bible that you think its better than the Quran"


If your understanding of faith, salvation and eternity is reduced to "my quran is better than your bible" then you are of all men most spiritually blind.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
2. "what is so special about Jesus that we should believe he is God or son or God. Others have made the same claim before and after him of being God or the son of. What distinguishes Jesus from them? (take Haillie Sellassie as I pointed out before)


To believe in Jesus Christ as God is entirely optional. The bible makes it expressly clear - whomsoever believeth. Dear lakpenne, it is not by force.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
3. Still waiting for someone to show me how God is the uncreated transcendant by definition and then becomes the created ephemeral. Yes God can do anything but there are somethings that are just not part of God's law so therefore they are impossible.


No you are not waiting for anything if not you would have seen the numerous explanations that litter this thread and others. Seeing indeed you see but you cannot percieve.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
For example, can God create a four sided triangle? of course not. But, I thought God could do anything. Yes, but what you are asking is based on a false premise because a triangle by definition is three sided so of course there is no such thing like a four sided triangle, that would be a parallelogram of some sorts.


Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Perhaps your own "god" is limited by the laws of geometry and common sense. Thankfully mine isnt.


Quote from: Lakpenne on Today at 07:08:19 PM
Likewise, there is no such thing as a created ephemeral God, that would be a created thing of some sort but definitely not God as God by definition must be transcendant in his Majesty and eternally uncreated without a need for a mover.


all hail "god's" very own press secretary. Perhaps you can enlighten us more on the many other things your "god" can never do.
You claim your god is immense and yet he is limited by your own logical definitions of his percieved greatness?"


In a nutshell, you are criticizing Muslims for Glorifying God and viewing Him constantly in the transcendant way that He should be viewed. Ok, I'll take that criticims.

Still waiting for your response on the two verses I quoted where Jesus basically said "don't worship me"

I still like how instead of offering a counter to my four sided triangle, which does not exist, you simply avoided the debate. So, can your God make a four sided triangle since he is not limited by geometry. I guess so cause he is eternal and ephemeral at the same time. Good luck sellign that one. I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you as well.

@Nwando: How can you, a Nigerian Woman, a Johnny come lately, justify your painting
Jesus as the Jewish God, from the many quotes you provided from the Torah, the Jewish
religious Test? Are you saying that Jews have Jesus as God and not as Massiah?

Are you then saying that Jews do not know their own God? Even after all the many
Prophets that they have had, each one talking about a Singularly GOD, which they call
Yahweh? Is Jesus yahweh now?

Then what happens to Melchesdekeh, who was without parents,no beginning and no end
and no one knows if he is dead?

Below is  your quote and I will not even comment on the New Testament quotes: From the Old
Testament, you boldly tells us he is God, but from the New testament, we hear sheepishly that
he is only Word of God!

II.    By the names attributed to him in scripture it can be seen that
       Jesus Christ was truly God as well as man.

      A.    "Mighty God."   Isaiah 9:6
      B.    The Word of God.   John 1:1; Revelation 19:13, 16
      C.    "Immanuel," meaning "God with us."   Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
      D.    The Almighty.   Revelation 1:8
      E .   The "I Am."   John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14
      F.    "My Lord and my God!"   John 20:28
      G.     The "Alpha and Omega" (first and last).  
                    Isaiah 44:6; 48:12; Revelation 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13
      H.    Son of God.   Matthew 17:5; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35; 1 John 4:15

Lakpenne:

Still waiting for your response on the two verses I quoted where Jesus basically said "don't worship me"

to be honest i have tried locating these quotes without success. . . pls post them again so i can respond.

Lakpenne:

I still like how instead of offering a counter to my four sided triangle, which does not exist, you simply avoided the debate. So, can your God make a four sided triangle since he is not limited by geometry. I guess so cause he is eternal and ephemeral at the same time. Good luck sellign that one. I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you as well.

Avoid what debate? Is that the new excuse muslims now give for glossing over the childish, irrelevant and puerile "questions" they claim to demand answers to?
God CREATED the triangle itself . . . were you the one who told Him to make it 3 sided?

Lakpenne:

In a nutshell, you are criticizing Muslims for Glorifying God and viewing Him constantly in the transcendant way that He should be viewed. Ok, I'll take that criticims.

lol that is hogwash . . . muslims dont "glorify god" when they say such nonsense like "god cannot create a 4-sided triangle", rather they bring him down to their level by limiting him in terms of geometry. You make so much noise about "god" being "Almighty, Sublime, Akbar, Transcendant, Life, Without death, Without sleep or slumber" yet every single statement you make about him completely contradicts the notion that he is "almighty".

the concept of a triangle is man's concept . . . to assume that God is bound by your laws of geometry that all triangles must be 3-sided and then turn around to claim he is "almighty" is sheer hypocrisy and exposes your limited ability to reason logically.