Mr_Anony:

@ceazar, you've lost me here, which is it really? agree or disagree?

Delafruita:
still cross referencing with your bible ?

Ihedinobi:

I think the key's in "completely meaningless". I had said, "imagined at best" and he took me up on that to further strengthen it. Unless I'm wrong, it's really not an issue. His disagreement was probably with the mildness of my language rather than with the idea I put forth.

Ihedinobi: I refuse generally to argue Jesus Christ because my understanding is that for argument to be successful between the debating parties, there must be at least a consensus on the basis of argument. If, for instance, I were to defend the Power of God being greater than Satan's and Logicboy were to oppose me, we would at least agree on basing our arguments on reason and the rules of logic. If we did not, the debate would degenerate into a stalemate and utter frustration with neither accepting the merits of the other's arguments. That's what I mean. And my experience so far with arguments on this board is that there is almost always that lack of consensus. And when the inevitable frustration results, cheap insults follow.
I am a Christian (if you read, subscriber to the religion, you're on your own o). I believe the Bible without reserve and information (perhaps historical in nature, Delafruita) I do not possess about either the Book or the Life do not hamper my faith at all solely for the reason that it is not founded on anything but Jesus Christ Himself. That is the basis for everything I say. When I argue for or against anything, however, I employ reason and the rules of logic, therefore my arguments can only be faulted along those lines. If anyone faults them along the lines of their contention with my faith, argument will come under arrest.
However, to the issue at hand. From the arguments you marshalled, Logicboy, it's not consistent to say that Satan is more powerful than God. In fact, is it not more logical to say that the man who is not bothered by another's ranting and raving and threatening is by his disinterest showing signs of greater strength than his adversary? After all, it must be that he is at ease because anytime he chose he could shut the other up. I think it is quite logical to assume so.
As to Delafruita's argument that things would have been easier for everyone, including God (!), if God had squashed Satan, I wonder what you base the assumption on. If all difficulty were removed, what would life be? Without friction, would there be any motion? Without the limitations of gravity, where would trees derive the strength in their wood and of what use would weak wood be? Satan must be allowed to exist until his time is fulfilled because he is instrumental to the maturing of God's children at least. His opposition to God only serves to give greater meaning to God's doings. Without the context of Satan's antagonism, God's benevolence and greatness would be imagined at best.

Mr_Anony:
I'll get back to you in due time, don't rush it.

Mr_Anony:
I'll get back to you in due time, don't rush it.

Delafruita:
irrespective of my disagreement with your points,i must admit you're a pretty good writer.however,when i say things would have been so much easier if God would just erase the devil,i know what i mean."God"s original plan didnt include a divide between good and evil,his plan didnt include poverty making wealth more appreciated or sickness making healthseem like paradise.God's plan was to rest and keep resting.his plan was to create a world and derive happiness from watching his creation.it was only after the fruit-eating incident(which many claim satan caused but which ni biblical evidence exists to prove satan made adam and eve eat the fruit)that God's plan became no plan.now,God seems to be just going with the trend.he has had to destroy billions of people(his own creation) because satan provoked him to.he has had to sacrifice his only son(damn,thats like the ultimate)all in a bid to win this war with satan.and if today's trend is anything to go by,satan is still winning the war.i believe God likes his original plan and i think he should just use his powers to revert the world into how he wants it to be.unless of course most of the powers attributed to God are exaggerated or he derives amusement from seeing his own people(christians) scream from bokoharam bombs,their children rendered orphans and liable to become armed robbers or prostitutes.

debosky: The quality of the education of the poster must have been abysmal if the basis for saying 'Satan is more powerful' is on the basis of rest.

Firstly, resting is not an indication of how powerful one is. Secondly, God 'resting' from creation essentially means he ended his work of creation, it did not mean he was tired. You don't need to continue any further when the task is done.

Ihedinobi:

How do you know this these things?

Delafruita:
first,joseph was a mesopotamian.sometime around 1720 BC,a group of mesopotamians invaded egypt(some historians claim they originally went to egypt to trade).sometime around 1710BC,the pharoah died without an heir and so these allowed for the mesopotamians to conquer northern egypt and install their own person as king.the original line of kings then fled to thebes and ruled from there.however,the mesopotamians(shepherd kings) entered into alliance with the city of Cush to crush the rebellion in thebes which they succeeded in doing for a while.
historians differ on the probable period for joseph's promotionto grand vizier but there is no doubt that if it ever happened,it must have been between 1670 and 1660BC.the pharoah of the time was one of the hyskos(a person of joseph's lineage) so historians agree that it wasnt difficult for joseph to be promoted to grand vizier.some accounts state that he was then given the land of goshen to bring the other palestines(his family) to egypt with aim been to foster unity in a bid to keep a stronghold on egypt.the egyptians in thebes were still waging a war of independence and finally by 1567BC,they were able to expel the hyskos and eventually install an egyptian by name of Ahmoses I on the throne.the slavery of isrealites began under Thutmoses I who is believed to have adopted Moses and given him his name.Thutmoses wanted back the land of goshen which at the time was "prime" real estate and he also wanted to revenge for the hardship egyptians suffered under the hyskos,moreso he wanted cheap labour to embatk on construction work in thebes and other parts of egypt.this should explain joseph and slavery

God specifically commanded in leviticus 23:3 that the weekly sabbath must be kept
besides jesus kept the sabbath according to mark 1:21,6:2,luke 4:16.even the apostles kept the sabbath acts 13:42-44
even after jesus crucifixion,the Bible says in mark 16:1"now when the sabbath was past,mary magdalene,mary the mother of james and salome bought spices that they might come and anoint him".is also says in luke 23:56 "and they rested on the sabbath according to the commandment".
where in all this is there evidence that jesus didnt keep the sabbath?

i thought Jesus said he didnt come to erase the laws of moses.besides didnt jesus observe the passover according to mathew 26:26-28 and mark 14:22-24?you seem to have forgotten that the passover is to commemorate the day God spared the firstborn children of isrealites but killed those of the egyptians and God was specific in his commendment in leviticus 23:5,exodus 12:7,26-29 that the ceremony should done in remembrance of that day.
the early church observed the feast of unleavened bread.read mathew 16:6-12,1corinthians 5:6-8
the feast of pentecost is meant to remind christians that God is the lord of harvest.read mathew 9:38,romans 8:23,james 1:18
when i said Bible study,i meant it.there's also the feast of trumphet,day of atonement and feast of tabernacles.i can quote places in the bible that confirm Jesus celebrated these feasts.i challenge you to quote a single verse where Jesus said these feasts didnt need to be celebrated.

if by now,you dont know that the roman catholic church founded christianity as we know it,then i should even be bothering to teach you the history of the "church".if by now you dont know that the Bible was compiled by the catholic church,then you know nothing.

the state religion of isreal is judaism.the isrealis dont believe Jesus is the messiah.and they are supposedly his own people.makes you wonder,doesnt it?

Delafruita:
the question should be "how dont you know all these things"?read your Bible and you will see that the way the world is wasnt God's plan.

MacDaddy01:



It is. An omnipotent can not rest. God did not stop creation on the 7th day. God stilll created floods and plagues later on

Mr_Anony:

Well said but then you do realize that this does not in anyway negate the fact that Joseph was favoured because of dream translation.



About Jesus and the sabbath: We both agree that the sabbath is a day of rest of which no work must be done. The sabbath as is evident in the time of Christ was also a time when people went to the synagogue to hear God's word. Now in the old testament, a man was caught gathering sticks on the sabbath and he was killed for it Numbers 15:32(that's how serious the sabbath law was).
Now in John 9:14-16, Mark 2:23-27, John 7:14-24 and many other places in scripture, Jesus disputed with the pharisees of his time about the sabbath and keeping the sabbath. Also when you read Acts 15 i.e. The council of Jerusalem where the jewish christians tried to impose jewish law on gentile christians, you will discover that the consensus of the church was that jewish traditions need not be kept as a requirement for christianity.



I don't have to quote any such verse. I'll just show you what Jesus did for us:
Now Jesus did not come to erase the law but to fulfill it Matthew 5:17. What Jesus did for us by reason of His death and resurrection was to bring us freedom from sin that comes as a result of the law. Now our salvation is based on Gods grace and not our works in observing ceremonies. Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the law for us therefore I don't need to keep mosaic law anymore. Romans 5:12-21.
So you see, I don't have to keep any feasts or special day by compulsion. If I want to keep the passover, I am free to do so. If I don't want to keep the passover, I am also free to do so. This is what it means to live by grace.
This is the freedom Christ died to give us and not so that we can be bound by new religious ceremonies

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Galatians 2:19-21


The bible may have been compiled by the Roman Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church sure didn't write it. Christianity is founded upon Jesus Christ and no one else. To be a Christian simply means to live by Christ. I look unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of my faith (Heb 12:2) I don't know what else you are talking about.


It doesn't make me wonder about anything. The bible tells me in John 1 that He came to His own but His own rejected Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to be called the sons of God. If a Jew repents and comes to God, he/she will receive the same salvation that I have received.

For more on this, I discussed something similar in this thread
https://www.nairaland.com/933277/bombshell-pt2-how-paul-distorted/1

Peace be with you

Ihedinobi:

The first part, "an omnipotent cannot rest", doesn't quite make sense, Logicboy. If you mean that an omnipotent being can never be exhausted to the point of needing recuperation then the statement should be "an omnipotent cannot need rest" and you would be correct without actually faulting the Bible's claim that God rested on the seventh day. However, I will address God's rest. It was not a rest, and the Bible never implied that it was the rest, of recuperation. In fact, the Bible said, "...God ended (finished) his work..." It was the rest of cessation of activity with respect to a particular work He set out to do, namely, creation. The place did not in any way say that God was exhausted by His work or that He entered a hibernation mode of sorts after He finished creating.
As to the second part, you are both right and wrong. First, the wrong. God has essentially finished creation, what you find in events like the flood and other things like that is more like management and maintenance of creation.
The sense in which you are right is in the sense that later in history, God set to work on making a new creation.

Mr_Anony:

Well said but then you do realize that this does not in anyway negate the fact that Joseph was favoured because of dream translation.



About Jesus and the sabbath: We both agree that the sabbath is a day of rest of which no work must be done. The sabbath as is evident in the time of Christ was also a time when people went to the synagogue to hear God's word. Now in the old testament, a man was caught gathering sticks on the sabbath and he was killed for it Numbers 15:32(that's how serious the sabbath law was).
Now in John 9:14-16, Mark 2:23-27, John 7:14-24 and many other places in scripture, Jesus disputed with the pharisees of his time about the sabbath and keeping the sabbath. Also when you read Acts 15 i.e. The council of Jerusalem where the jewish christians tried to impose jewish law on gentile christians, you will discover that the consensus of the church was that jewish traditions need not be kept as a requirement for christianity.



I don't have to quote any such verse. I'll just show you what Jesus did for us:
Now Jesus did not come to erase the law but to fulfill it Matthew 5:17. What Jesus did for us by reason of His death and resurrection was to bring us freedom from sin that comes as a result of the law. Now our salvation is based on Gods grace and not our works in observing ceremonies. Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the law for us therefore I don't need to keep mosaic law anymore. Romans 5:12-21.
So you see, I don't have to keep any feasts or special day by compulsion. If I want to keep the passover, I am free to do so. If I don't want to keep the passover, I am also free to do so. This is what it means to live by grace.
This is the freedom Christ died to give us and not so that we can be bound by new religious ceremonies

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Galatians 2:19-21


The bible may have been compiled by the Roman Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church sure didn't write it. Christianity is founded upon Jesus Christ and no one else. To be a Christian simply means to live by Christ. I look unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of my faith (Heb 12:2) I don't know what else you are talking about.


It doesn't make me wonder about anything. The bible tells me in John 1 that He came to His own but His own rejected Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to be called the sons of God. If a Jew repents and comes to God, he/she will receive the same salvation that I have received.

For more on this, I discussed something similar in this thread
https://www.nairaland.com/933277/bombshell-pt2-how-paul-distorted/1

Peace be with you

MacDaddy01:



Semantics. Omnipotent being can not rest in any sense of the word. When he is not creating, he/she is observing the actions of his creation or even interferring with the creation. Another argument can be made out of time. Time is meaningless to an omnipotent being and therefore, the concept of resting for a certain amount of time is meaningless as well for the being.


When you breakdown what it means to be omnipotent, you realise that it is quite incredible that a christian god exists

Delafruita:
there is no historical account of joseph having existed.the only evidence is in the bible.historians only juxtapose what the bible says with recorded historical evidence of arrive at likely scenarios.this is not to say joseph never existed.

Delafruita: you do realise that Jesus altecration with the pharisees about the sabbath arose because he performed a miracle on the sabbath.the pharisees rebuked him and he responded "which of you if his sheep falls into a hole on the sabbath will not retreive it".he didnt condemn or eradicate observance of the sabbath.he and his disciples oberved sabbath,his followers observed sabbath,even paul who you quoted out of context observed the sabbath.besides even you observe the sabbath.only you observe it on sunday.you have pope sylvester to thank for that because it was he who decreed sometime between 325 and 335 AD that the feirai(the lord's day) should be observed on the first day of the week i.e. sunday

Ihedinobi:
I think the key's in "completely meaningless". I had said, "imagined at best" and he took me up on that to further strengthen it. Unless I'm wrong, it's really not an issue. His disagreement was probably with the mildness of my language rather than with the idea I put forth.

Mr_Anony:

@ceazar, you've lost me here, which is it really? agree or disagree?

Ihedinobi:

It may be necessary for you to break down the meaning for me. As far as I know omnipotent is a word for "all-powerful". I do not see anything in its meaning that says that the being must of necessity stay caught up in just one activity eternally. If the rest is cessation of work, then it would mean that He stopped being active with respect to the work He began. Even if He is engaged in other works that have a bearing upon the work He ceased from, He is no less in rest from that particular work.

The issue with time makes no sense. If the first thing God did was to mark out intervals and use those intervals to measure His activities, how would it not make sense to Him? How does the issue of time take away from the merit of His omnipotence?

And I really would like very much to see how the definition of omnipotence disqualifies Jesus Christ as God.

Ihedinobi: However, I recognise that pursuing that argument may derail the topic. The notion was that Satan is more powerful than God and you used the Scriptures as your basis for argument.
My answer is that it is not so, the Scriptures do not in any way show that Satan is even as powerful as God. Rather do they portray him as a part of God's plan such that his character provides the tapestry for God's designs. If that is so, God is not at all perturbed by his doings as those doings are not even independent of Him in the first place.

Mr_Anony: @Macdaddy, your "logic" keeps getting worse by the day. So according to you, the fact that someone rested and another does not rest automatically makes the restless one more powerful? Your childishness amuses me.
Besides, frosbel did not say what you are claiming he said. You are simply misrepresenting his statements. If he did, show us a direct quote. Don't resort to dishonesty just to make your point

@Delafruita, why doesn't God simply just destroy satan? Simple because God has set apart a day when satan will be judged and sent to hell.
Perhaps you may want to ask: why doesn't God just destroy us both immediately for our sins? Because God has set apart a day for our judgment as well.

@Spicy v, please don't waste your time

spicy v:

Anony: macdaddy chlidish? Me thinks θf him as more on the delusional or confused side! And uum Ʊr so right! I have got to quit wasting my time with these beings!

spicy v:

Anony: macdaddy chlidish? Me thinks θf him as more on the delusional or confused side! And uum Ʊr so right! I have got to quit wasting my time with these beings!

Ptolomeus: Thousands of years of fighting, and god has not been able to overcome Satan.
This clearly shows who has more power.
Or Satan is more powerful than god or that god is extremely weak.
There can be no other opinion, but are cited all the passages of the Bible.

My respects.

MacDaddy01:

Well, accordingto the scriptures more will be in heaven than hell. Satan is the winner

MacDaddy01:

First of all. Human beings were the ones who marked their time intervals, different ancient cultures had their own measurements of time. So you are wrong. Time will be meaningless to an omnipotent being. As for the cessation of work, God is the past present and future. This therfore means that his version of time would be polychronic. He is neither stopping or starting.


As for Jesus. A god can not die. If Jesus knew that he was going to rise again, his sacrifice is meaningless. Its like cutting orhair when it will grow back. No big thing!

MacDaddy01:

Well, accordingto the scriptures more will be in heaven than hell. Satan is the winner

Ihedinobi:
I'm not sure how the first statement leads to the second. And, please, could u indicate where in the Scriptures u drew the first statement from?


First bolded. How exactly did we mark out day and night and create a period of 24 hrs with elements of light and dark? Or the revolutions around the sun that we call the year? Or the revolutions of the moon about the earth that we call the month? How did we mark out these time intervals?
Second bolded. On what do you base the declaration that God is the past, present and future? And how is this a possibility?
Third bolded. What does this mean? That the pain of death is meaningless? That the full condemnation of the sin of every man, woman and child ever born, is being born or will yet be born being laid on one innocent man so that he pays the full price for all that sin is meaningless only because he rose again from the dead? Even with hair cut off, is there no loss just because it grows back?
Finally, a god cannot die. While I will not debate this statement, I will point out that you do not say what they are based on. However, certainly a god cannot die, but a man can, as Jesus Christ did.

I'm not sure how the first statement leads to the second. And, please, could u indicate where in the Scriptures u drew the first statement from?

MacDaddy01:
I meant to write "more will be in hell than heaven. Satan is the winner". That view is backed by the scriptures. Read your bible.

MacDaddy01: You really havent thought of what it means to be omnipotent? That's why you still believe in God. I dont.

Different cultures marked their time intervals and had different calenders. T modern one we have is actually based on study of astronomy.

Omnipotent- Everywhere at the same time. If God can read everybody's mind at the same time and also be aware of the future, surely he exists beyond on timeline.

MacDaddy01: Jesus can not die, he could come back as a man again if he wanted to. Doesnt that make his sacrifice meaningless?

Mr_Anony:
The task for you is to show how this view is supported by scripture and how satan wins as a result because I have not come across anywhere in the bible that tells me that more people will go to hell than heaven and as a result this will benefit the devil rather the bible tells me that satan will be punished in hell for eternity along with those who die in sin. (Revelations 20:10,15)

So please back up this your claim with scripture because of recent I have noticed that you now resort to lying when you can't make a point

Mr_Anony:
Actually omnipotent simply means all-powerful it doesn't mean all-doing.
God transcends time but this doesn't automatically mean he can't work within a timeline especially since He is all-powerful.

Mr_Anony:
Actually no, His sacrifice is not as trivial as you want to make it sound. Jesus Christ first "humiliated" Himself suspending His Godness and taking on the form of man. was hungry like a man, felt pain like a man, bled and died like like a man. This was an all-powerful God of immense power but He suspended this power and allowed his fickle creation to lord it over Him even to the point of death. That was the sacrifice of Christ. It is not as simple as cutting your hair.

It is more likened to You turning into a cockroach, allowing other cockroaches to humiliate you and abuse you and kill you in the worst possible way a cockroach can die even though you know that at anytime you choose, you could call your human friends to simply stamp them out, you still go through cockroach torture and why just so that you can save them from a virus harmful to them. You do this even though the existence or non existence of cockroaches does not affect your life in anyway.

That my friend, is called love (the kind of love that surpasses human understanding). And Jesus Christ did so much more.

Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn't claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion. Philipians 2:5-8 (MSG)

Mr_Anony:
The task for you is to show how this view is supported by scripture and how satan wins as a result because I have not come across anywhere in the bible that tells me that more people will go to hell than heaven and as a result this will benefit the devil rather the bible tells me that satan will be punished in hell for eternity along with those who die in sin. (Revelations 20:10,15)

So please back up this your claim with scripture because of recent I have noticed that you now resort to lying when you can't make a point




Actually omnipotent simply means all-powerful it doesn't mean all-doing.
God transcends time but this doesn't automatically mean he can't work within a timeline especially since He is all-powerful.


Actually no, His sacrifice is not as trivial as you want to make it sound. Jesus Christ first "humiliated" Himself suspending His Godness and taking on the form of man. was hungry like a man, felt pain like a man, bled and died like like a man. This was an all-powerful God of immense power but He suspended this power and allowed his fickle creation to lord it over Him even to the point of death. That was the sacrifice of Christ. It is not as simple as cutting your hair.

It is more likened to You turning into a cockroach, allowing other cockroaches to humiliate you and abuse you and kill you in the worst possible way a cockroach can die even though you know that at anytime you choose, you could call your human friends to simply stamp them out, you still go through cockroach torture and why just so that you can save them from a virus harmful to them. You do this even though the existence or non existence of cockroaches does not affect your life in anyway.

That my friend, is called love (the kind of love that surpasses human understanding). And Jesus Christ did so much more.

Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn't claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion. Philipians 2:5-8 (MSG)