Mr_Anony:
Macdaddy01, arguing with you is very tiring. Arguments work well when the two parties arguing are using some sort of logic. You don't.
You may think I am just making this accusation because perhaps in your mind your reasoning is "so superior" but then think back on all the people that have said this same thing to you albeit in different words on this forum.

In the words of the Rabbi from the movie Lucky Number Slevin

"The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."



(........I do hope you understand the proverb above as I really don't wanna have to dumb it down for you)

abi o, my brother. I don tire

Ihedinobi:

You just love that comment of yours, don't you? Sure we can play with that.



Definitely a pet theory of yours
First bolded. Rest is not only stopping for a period of time. This is not one of the absurdities, the absurdity here (or maybe just the tickle) is that you base your arguments on this conclusively, when you gave another very valid definition and chose not to say why you're not using that one: "taking a break from something".

Next bolded. Inconsistent statements. How does God dwell outside of time and yet live in all timeframes? There's absurd reasoning for you. Either you're arguing that God is confined in time or you're arguing that He isn't. Which is it?

Next bolded. How do you know what existing outside time is like such that you know that under such conditions there is neither starting nor stopping? It is absurd to submit that "beyond time" necessitates "inability to either start or stop" when you have not described what it is.

Next bolded. It mirrors the next argument? So far I'm not sure what you have said.

This next argument that you posit (just like all your other arguments about Him too) makes God out to be some mechanism with curious qualities. What do you base that assumption on? If you're arguing against the Christian God, then the notion that you are opposing is that Yahweh is an intelligent Person. Now, why would an intelligent person want to create a rock he can't move? Even had he all the ability in creation and beyond.

Have fun

Wow. Wow. I must admit that you're more fun than Anony. You actually read and dissected my comments. I clap for you!

MacDaddy01:

Wow. Wow. I must admit that you're more fun than Anony. You actually read and dissected my comments. I clap for you!

Obviously one of us is blessed with more patience

Lol. I haven't had to deal with him as long as you, Anony.

Logicboy, thanks for the ovation. Feel free to straighten the kinks out! If that's even possible...

Ihedinobi:


Definitely a pet theory of yours
First bolded. Rest is not only stopping for a period of time. This is not one of the absurdities, the absurdity here (or maybe just the tickle) is that you base your arguments on this conclusively, when you gave another very valid definition and chose not to say why you're not using that one: "taking a break from something".

When you take a break from something are you not stopping from doing that thing for a period of time?

Ihedinobi:
Next bolded. Inconsistent statements. How does God dwell outside of time and yet live in all timeframes? There's absurd reasoning for you. Either you're arguing that God is confined in time or you're arguing that He isn't. Which is it?

Time to human beings is one timeframe and linear. Anything outside one timeframe is already outside of time for us. So God is both outside of time and in many timeframes at the same time.


What? Dont be surprised. I have actually thought this out!

Ihedinobi:
Next bolded. How do you know what existing outside time is like such that you know that under such conditions there is neither starting nor stopping? It is absurd to submit that "beyond time" necessitates "inability to either start or stop" when you have not described what it is.

I watch science fiction movies? Lmao.

Common sense. If I am not bound by time, then there is no time at which I can stop or start doing something. Genius!

Ihedinobi:
Next bolded. It mirrors the next argument? So far I'm not sure what you have said.

This next argument that you posit (just like all your other arguments about Him too) makes God out to be some mechanism with curious qualities. What do you base that assumption on? If you're arguing against the Christian God, then the notion that you are opposing is that Yahweh is an intelligent Person. Now, why would an intelligent person want to create a rock he can't move? Even had he all the ability in creation and beyond.

Have fun

God created a devil that messed up his favourite creations. Why cant he do something as foolish as creating an unmovable rock?

MacDaddy01:

When you take a break from something are you not stopping from doing that thing for a period of time?






Time to human beings is one timeframe and linear. Anything outside one timeframe is already outside of time for us. So God is both outside of time and in many timeframes at the same time.


What? Dont be surprised. I have actually thought this out!




I watch science fiction movies? Lmao.

Common sense. If I am not bound by time, then there is no time at which I can stop or start doing something. Genius!





God created a devil that messed up his favourite creations. Why cant he do something as foolish as creating an unmovable rock?

Mehn...I think I have an idea how you must be feeling

Let's try an analogy. I read a novel. I can read any part of the story I want, but I'm not part of the novel either wholly, severally or in part. The characters, however, follow a linear movement through the timeline as the story unfolds. If I wrote the novel, then I created that timeline. I know what the end is, what the beginning is and what the middle is. I am still essentially outside it. It is absurd that because I do not operate within the timeline of the characters which on the whole may be four hours of reading I therefore have no concept of starting or stopping. Time for the characters started the instant I began to write or read the book. But does it mean that I know nothing of "time"? Duration for me may be consist of something more suited to my place as creator of the story. Enter Eternity. Do you know what that is?

"God created a devil"? Dude, we've got a handful already without starting in on that.

Suffice to say that while I respect the fact that you run the circuits in your head, you may have far fewer circuits than you think or a lot more unsophisticated ones at your disposal than you think. Don't read an insult into it o. I'm simply advising that you don't continue to carry yourself like you have all the knowledge. You probably don't.

Ihedinobi:


Let's try an analogy. I read a novel. I can read any part of the story I want, but I'm not part of the novel either wholly, severally or in part. The characters, however, follow a linear movement through the timeline as the story unfolds. If I wrote the novel, then I created that timeline. I know what the end is, what the beginning is and what the middle is. I am still essentially outside it. It is absurd that because I do not operate within the timeline of the characters which on the whole may be four hours of reading I therefore have no concept of starting or stopping. Time for the characters started the instant I began to write or read the book. But does it mean that I know nothing of "time"? Duration for me may be consist of something more suited to my place as creator of the story. Enter Eternity. Do you know what that is?

1) God is part of the novel. He interacted with his creations in the bible

2) While you novel analogy exposes the disconnect between knowing a timeline and have no concept of stopping and starting,
a) It fails to acknowledge that the writer can write other novels (many timelines) and much more than a writer God has the ability to be everywhere at the same time.
b) It fails to acknowledge that the characters are oblivious to the powers of the writer

3) I never said that God knows nothing of time

My words in red

MacDaddy01:


God is part of the novel. He interacted with his creations in the bible
In the same way a writer can add and subtract words from his write-up

2) While you novel analogy exposes the disconnect between knowing a timeline and have no concept of stopping and starting,
a) It fails to acknowledge that the writer can write other novels (many timelines) and much more than a writer God has the ability to be everywhere at the same time.
The analogy doesn't deny that the writer can write other stuff, but from the viewpoint of the characters in the novel they cannot know the exact nature of other novels or the exact nature of the writer

b) It fails to acknowledge that the characters are oblivious to the powers of the writer
Not exactly, this depends on if the writer includes aspects of himself in the story

3) I never said that God knows nothing of time
Ok

Mr_Anony: My words in red

So Anony, After all the hard work done by Idhenobi, you swoop in like a vulture to finish me off?

MacDaddy01:
So Anony, After all the hard work done by Idhenobi, you swoop in like a vulture to finish me off?

Logic is about the search for truth and not about who finishes the other off.
Besides I am quite sure that Ihedinobi would have given you more or less the same answers as I have given.

as a Muslim,the sins or wrongs,or mistakes humans commit cannot all be attributed to satanic inspiration or the temptation of the devil.the human being have the power to resist the temptation of the devil and also choose to act in a way other than the other way.the Quran makes perfect sense on those and we see that even though the devil tempts,we share the blame either partly or fully sometimes.

Holy Quran 15:42
"My servants – you shall have no authority over any of them, unless it be such as follow you being rebellious (against Me, as you are). "

Holy Quran 91:7-10
"And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it.And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.,He has succeeded who purifies it,And he has failed who instills it [with corruption]".

LagosShia: as a Muslim,the sins or wrongs,or mistakes humans commit cannot all be attributed to satanic inspiration or the temptation of the devil.the human being have the power to resist the temptation of the devil and also choose to act in a way other than the other way.the Quran makes perfect sense on those and we see that even though the devil tempts,we share the blame either partly or fully sometimes.

Holy Quran 15:42
"My servants – you shall have no authority over any of them, unless it be such as follow you being rebellious (against Me, as you are). "

Holy Quran 91:7-10
"And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it.And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.,He has succeeded who purifies it,And he has failed who instills it [with corruption]".

You miss road or something?

MacDaddy01:



You miss road or something?

lol...

Mr_Anony:
Logic is about the search for truth and not about who finishes the other off.
Besides I am quite sure that Ihedinobi would have given you more or less the same answers as I have given.

Right, bro

I'll add to Mr Anony's comments.

Earlier in this thread you said, "time is meaningless to God". I'm saying this in answer to "I never said that God knows nothing of time". It's an instance of how much untangling needs to be done just to straighten out our arguments. It's why I said that I would need to harvest the inconsistencies from all your comments so far. It's really tedious to set about that.

However, let me see if I can make this whole thing a little clear.

- The thread is intended to show that Yahweh/Jesus Christ is weaker than Satan.

- To show this you have unsatisfactorily used the Bible to say that God being an omnipotent being cannot rest or in fact do anything. This was further to show that the quality of omnipotence renders God an impossibility. While none of this has been conclusively proven, you have neglected to show its relevance to the issue under examination, viz, Satan is more powerful than God.

- You also questionably used both the Bible and bogus (given the lack of citation and defence) statistics to posit that there'll be more people in hell than in heaven. While this is not in any sense established as an irrefutable fact, you have gone on to base on it your submission that God loses ultimately to Satan and thus is weaker.

I have put together the foregoing observations without going over the whole thread with a fine tooth comb. They are just the most glaring difficulties. I don't even want to think about what I would find if I were to examine the thread exhaustively. Suffice to say that we have debated everything, inconclusively too, without addressing the your position that Satan is more powerful than God appreciably. And as the starter of the thread, it was your responsibility to keep the thread on point. You not only shirked that responsibility, you positively began and perpetuated the derailing of the thread, twisting issues so much that it became a near-impossibility to have a sensible debate with you anymore.

Now, permit me to request that you pick one issue to deal with. Are we to exhaust completely without distraction God's omnipotence with your position that omnipotence as a quality renders God as an impossibility? Or are we to take the thread back to whether or not Satan is more powerful than God using your opening arguments as your position?
I ask so that we can argue effectively and exhaustively. It's really troublesome to just throw words and conjectures about and imagine that because someone refuses to continue to deal with all the twists and incoherence of argument that they have been refuted or disproved or whatever.

Ihedinobi: I'll add to Mr Anony's comments.

Earlier in this thread you said, "time is meaningless to God". I'm saying this in answer to "I never said that God knows nothing of time". It's an instance of how much untangling needs to be done just to straighten out our arguments. It's why I said that I would need to harvest the inconsistencies from all your comments so far. It's really tedious to set about that.

However, let me see if I can make this whole thing a little clear.

- The thread is intended to show that Yahweh/Jesus Christ is weaker than Satan.

- To show this you have unsatisfactorily used the Bible to say that God being an omnipotent being cannot rest or in fact do anything. This was further to show that the quality of omnipotence renders God an impossibility. While none of this has been conclusively proven, you have neglected to show its relevance to the issue under examination, viz, Satan is more powerful than God.

- You also questionably used both the Bible and bogus (given the lack of citation and defence) statistics to posit that there'll be more people in hell than in heaven. While this is not in any sense established as an irrefutable fact, you have gone on to base on it your submission that God loses ultimately to Satan and thus is weaker.

I have put together the foregoing observations without going over the whole thread with a fine tooth comb. They are just the most glaring difficulties. I don't even want to think about what I would find if I were to examine the thread exhaustively. Suffice to say that we have debated everything, inconclusively too, without addressing the your position that Satan is more powerful than God appreciably. And as the starter of the thread, it was your responsibility to keep the thread on point. You not only shirked that responsibility, you positively began and perpetuated the derailing of the thread, twisting issues so much that it became a near-impossibility to have a sensible debate with you anymore.

Now, permit me to request that you pick one issue to deal with. Are we to exhaust completely without distraction God's omnipotence with your position that omnipotence as a quality renders God as an impossibility? Or are we to take the thread back to whether or not Satan is more powerful than God using your opening arguments as your position?
I ask so that we can argue effectively and exhaustively. It's really troublesome to just throw words and conjectures about and imagine that because someone refuses to continue to deal with all the twists and incoherence of argument that they have been refuted or disproved or whatever.

lol......My points in summary are 2;


1) Satan is more powerful than God because
a) More people will be in hell
b) Satan never rests (according to frosbel)but God rests, according to the bible. Original point of the thread but not my best argument. Just something to troll the christians.



2) God can not rest if he is beyond time and always alert to everything in the universe. However, God should have the ability to rest if omnipotence means the ability to do everything. This contradiction is why God can not exist to a logical mind.

MacDaddy01:



lol......My points in summary are 2;


1) Satan is more powerful than God because
a) More people will be in hell
b) Satan never rests (according to frosbel)but God rests, according to the bible. Original point of the thread but not my best argument. Just something to troll the christians.



2) God can not rest if he is beyond time and always alert to everything in the universe. However, God should have the ability to rest if omnipotence means the ability to do everything. This contradiction is why God can not exist to a logical mind.

Both points are independently big debates. Which shall we pursue from hereon out?

Ihedinobi:

Both points are independently big debates. Which shall we pursue from hereon out?

Pick your choice

MacDaddy01:



Pick your choice

they're both the same to me. But if it's all the same to you also, I'll go with the latter, your pet theory We're already some way into it in any case.

I'll go through our debate so far on it and rehash the points so far so that we can resume orderly. I'll do that in my next comment.

On second thought, we can proceed straight from point 2 in your comment using it as your opening arguments. You said there,

2) God can not rest if he is beyond time and always alert to everything in the universe. However, God should have the ability to rest if omnipotence means the ability to do everything. This contradiction is why God can not exist to a logical mind.

The first sentence wants explaining. How does God's existing beyond time and alertness to everything in His Creation imply an inability to rest? I see no correlation.
If I were to call to mind an earlier statement of yours to the effect that "there is no point in time at which God is stopping or starting" as your answer to this, then I would answer thus.
Accepted, God dwells beyond time...in something we Christians call Eternity. We know that this thing called Eternity is very like time. In fact, we Christians accept that time as we know it is only a very small portion of it, perhaps an aberration of it even. So, God does exist outside of time but in something from whose nature time derives its characteristics. This means that God can start and stop an event or activity at specific points of Eternity even if not in time.