Pukkah:

I guess that's why some people refer to Islam as 'Esin Imale' which is a corruption of 'Esin Mali' (religion from Mali).

Correct. It was a corruption.

Katsumoto:

Tunisia is in North Africa and the presence of Islam in one country/region doesn't automatically mean its presence in other parts. There was Islam in Bornu, why was there no Islam in the Eastern part of Nigeria?

well, i am just guessing here, like i said, i could be wrong.

however, i believe there was some contact between north and west africa in ancient centuries.

The first mosques in yorubaland were built around 1600AD, but by then all Yoruba were still glorious pagans

The first Yoruba Muslim converts were around 1700AD in Oyo

other Towns followed and Islam had reached everywhere in 1900AD

The first Muslim in oyo was Solagberu

I wonder how and why some Yorubas were stupid enough to leave paganism but it wasn't easy, it took about 300yrs of Islamic evangelism.

The gods shall deliver the Yoruba nation from Islam

macof: The first mosques in yorubaland were built around 1600AD, but by then all Yoruba were still glorious pagans

The first Yoruba Muslim converts were around 1700AD in Oyo

other Towns followed and Islam had reached everywhere in 1900AD

The first Muslim in oyo was Solagberu

I wonder how and why some Yorubas were stupid enough to leave paganism but it wasn't easy, it took about 300yrs of Islamic evangelism.

The gods shall deliver the Yoruba nation from Islam

It starts with you,
You can be an instrument of the gods,
i have learn a very strange precept on Christ from you
that Yeshua was a gay so Jews don't believe him,

Christianity And Things That Aren't Really Known

I think you have edited that part after second thought because I can't find it in your post there any longer.
can you help me with that particular insight? It can be resourceful you know.

You can work for the gods by demystifying Mohammed too, then start proselytizing the gods to silly Yorubas asap.

ladionline:

It starts with you,
You can be an instrument of the gods,
i have learn a very strange precept on Christ from you
that Yeshua was a gay so Jews don't believe him,

Christianity And Things That Aren't Really Known

I think you have edited that part after second thought because I can't find it in your post there any longer.
can you help me with that particular insight? It can be resourceful you know.

You can work for the gods by demystifying Mohammed too, then start proselytizing the gods to silly Yorubas asap.

I won't force people or threaten them wit hell or eternal suffering, I'll keep speaking for my ancestors and the tell the truth about the gods.
I wud only go wit my conscience and tell the truth I know, the gods know that I am nt trying to insult Jesus or Mohamed wit lies.

If u have learned from my posts that's beautiful, keep following me.

Wat insight do u need?

There are three points I will add here.

1. @tpia, your observations of closeness between the rites of Yoruba traditional religion and Islam is another testament on account of a common footprint between the two cultures. New initiates into Ifa go through the exact same rituals that muslim pilgrims to Mecca go through. What is this ritual? It is spiritual cleansing and transformation as a new born. In Christianity it is called baptism.

There are many transcedental journeys in life, we exit one matrix and enter into another. The transition require a cleansing or attunement (atone) and this is what is symbolized by baptism or the hiram or omo awo.

2. @ katsumoto.
No one has more authority on Yoruba history and footprints or time markers than these two - Alaafin and Ooni.

In a past interview Alaafin Adeyemi confirmed that Alaafin Sango had read the Quran. In timeline this would be far earlier than before Dan Fodio himself knew what Islam was.

It is significant to hear that the 4th Alaafin of Yorubaland read the Quran.

I want to know, how did he understand its language, who taught him?

I will reserve my third question for now.

macof:


I won't force people or threaten them wit hell or eternal suffering, I'll keep speaking for my ancestors and the tell the truth about the gods.
I wud only go wit my conscience and tell the truth I know, the gods know that I am nt trying to insult Jesus or Mohamed wit lies.

If u have learned from my posts that's beautiful, keep following me.

Wat insight do u need?

What is my business with what you belief as to hell? Am I sitting on judgement throne on nairaland? My point is, clarify your argument that yeshua is a gay. own up to your own claim or second thought, as you have remove the point in your post. That's all. 'Eke sise 'o pe 'ama lowo lowo, Ile dida ko pe 'a mala, ojo atisun l'ebo.' - Orunmila. What about all the truth you don't know? That's why i'm not your follower. Please answer asap.

A pattern is evolving as I read all these different inputs and Ive made an observation.

For many years the children of babalawo were reduced to studying their father's trade and later taking over the profession. They were mocked and ridiculed as illiterates and belittled. Time has changed! Children of babalawo these days have college degrees, they earn masters degree. Their knowledge and scholarship, the double whammy of a western education and traditional esoteric insights, is what will advance Yorubaland and open the culture to true inquiry, in art and science, and free of foreign bias. They will posess far more aptitude than Yoruba children who had no exposure to Ifa corpus and understand the energy theories in a much richer context than their global peers.

This is the edge Chinese children today have over Western children - study of cosmic principles and hermeneutics.

When I have children they will be enrolled to study Ifa.

ladionline: What is my business with what you belief as to hell? Am I sitting on judgement throne on nairaland? My point is, clarify your argument that yeshua is a gay. own up to your own claim or second thought, as you have remove the point in your post. That's all. 'Eke sise 'o pe 'ama lowo lowo, Ile dida ko pe 'a mala, ojo atisun l'ebo.' - Orunmila. What about all the truth you don't know? That's why i'm not your follower. Please answer asap.

Hebrew 4:15 states that No holy man has been free from moral weakness- must include Yeshua

John 13:23 & 25 A disciple who was the beloved of yeshua, resting on his breast

John 19:26 Mary(his mother) standing by the one he loved

Matthew 19:12 Jesus states that some are born as "eunuchs". and some are made eunuchs of men. And others who have made themselves for that's good for the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 1:24-27 God causing people to be homosexual

Jesus himself acted gay and supported gay, all his ministries professing love to his male disciples and begging them to love him too. In the entire NT Jesus doesn't seem to have feelings for any woman or profess love for any female, he only did that wit his male disciples.

Simon Peter was a married man, he didn't let him stay wit his family, he instead allowed him follow everywhere

Are these the features of A gay or straight man?

MetaPhysical: There are three points I will add here.

1. @tpia, your observations of closeness between the rites of Yoruba traditional religion and Islam is another testament on account of a common footprint between the two cultures. New initiates into Ifa go through the exact same rituals that muslim pilgrims to Mecca go through. What is this ritual? It is spiritual cleansing and transformation as a new born. In Christianity it is called baptism.

There are many transcedental journeys in life, we exit one matrix and enter into another. The transition require a cleansing or attunement (atone) and this is what is symbolized by baptism or the hiram or omo awo.

2. @ katsumoto.
No one has more authority on Yoruba history and footprints or time markers than these two - Alaafin and Ooni.

In a past interview Alaafin Adeyemi confirmed that Alaafin Sango had read the Quran. In timeline this would be far earlier than before Dan Fodio himself knew what Islam was.

It is significant to hear that the 4th Alaafin of Yorubaland read the Quran.

I want to know, how did he understand its language, who taught him?

I will reserve my third question for now.

1. I don't agree that Alaafin or Ooni have more authority on Yoruba history than others. Do you acquire knowledge simply by becoming a king or president? Surely their knowledge of Yoruba history and its analysis should have prevented any public squabble between them.

2. While it is possible that Alaafin Sango read the Quran, it isn't probable. His mother was Nupe and the Nupe didn't accept Islam until the 18th century. The first traders from Mali didn't get to Oyo until the 15th century. In Yoruba tradition, of which the Alaafin is a part of, Sango is celebrated as a pagan god. How then could he have publicly read the Quran? Did he learn it in isolation? Is the current Alaafin himself not a Muslim? Could it be that he is trying to justify his practice of a foreign religion?

3. There is no common footprint between Yoruba culture and Islam. There are similarities between Yoruba and Christianity as well as other cultures. Many cultures believe/believed in the concept that reality has two parts (male and female, good and evil, etc). The ancient Greeks and Romans were believers of this principle as were many other empires. There are still many cultures/religions that follow this belief system but their interpretations are different. These interpretations believe that the two can be interdependent, mutually independent, complimentary (Hinduism) or antagonistic (Gnostic Christians, Zoroastrianism). Being that humans live on the same planet and derived from the same source, it isn't far fetched why there are similarities between groups of people that are far removed from one another.

macof:

Hebrew 4:15 states that No holy man has been free from moral weakness- must include Yeshua

John 13:23 & 25 A disciple who was the beloved of yeshua, resting on his breast

John 19:26 Mary(his mother) standing by the one he loved

Matthew 19:12 Jesus states that some are born as "eunuchs". and some are made eunuchs of men. And others who have made themselves for that's good for the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 1:24-27 God causing people to be homosexual

Jesus himself acted gay and supported gay, all his ministries professing love to his male disciples and begging them to love him too. In the entire NT Jesus doesn't seem to have feelings for any woman or profess love for any female, he only did that wit his male disciples.

Simon Peter was a married man, he didn't let him stay wit his family, he instead allowed him follow everywhere

Are these the features of A gay or straight man?

I don't need to join issues with you, because you are in duel with God and he is in war with you already, "omode soko lu 'roko oun boju weyin, oro pe ojo kan naa loluwere npani" I do not need to share in your reproach. Hold on to your genius.That's the interpretation here:


Romans 1:24-27

English Standard Version (ESV)

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.


And your mode of interpretation is that of the wisest fool. You look for "gainsaying" in whatever pleases you, and your logic is simple: Pride. You can not help yourself either, but "Bible bashing" did not start with you. The more you[i] destroy[/i] what belongs to others, the less you know how to construct your own.

There are duality in this world, though I do not want to sound metaphysical, but I know there is pride and there is humility.

With pride is "pride of accusation", and with humility is "humility of correction". What makes the difference? A man ruled by pride can never attain the humility of correction because they can not be corrected. Thus they go accusing people, that's their genius, the world is unfair to them.

But the mind ruled by humility of correction find it easy to learn, they do not have to be right by all means, somebody else can take the glory, because the world does not belong to them and so they honour people who has add value to the world and made it a better place than it ever was.

You are here to contribute your "pride of accusation" and it is what you know how to do best, to accuse the brethren and enforce exactly what you know nothing about. I have been reading your irresponsible comments to creative individuals that think creatively to come up with ideas.

Your popular word is "Shut Up"

That's because analysis of the obvious bedevils you, the devil is in the detail, your wit will fall apart on what you don't know. Don't accuse anyone, this Yoruba cause is too profound for your grasp, your genius can not comprehend it, there is no quotes to contradict or manipulate in anger.

People on board of the Yoruba thread arwe far wiser than you, afterall they were on the cause before you register. But pride would not allow you to learn, your "silly Yoruba" is all sufficient, its like you evolve in Iwo Eleru, or check Wikipedia for more answers.

Have you find answers to your Obatala quest? Just keep saying "Obo ngbobo gokpe" and you will have some revelations. Your ancestors were ghosts and energies. Charles Darwin have the missing link to your ancestry, The Great Ape.

macof:

Hebrew 4:15 states that No holy man has been free from moral weakness- must include Yeshua

John 13:23 & 25 A disciple who was the beloved of yeshua, resting on his breast

John 19:26 Mary(his mother) standing by the one he loved

Matthew 19:12 Jesus states that some are born as "eunuchs". and some are made eunuchs of men. And others who have made themselves for that's good for the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 1:24-27 God causing people to be homosexual

Jesus himself acted gay and supported gay, all his ministries professing love to his male disciples and begging them to love him too. In the entire NT Jesus doesn't seem to have feelings for any woman or profess love for any female, he only did that wit his male disciples.

Simon Peter was a married man, he didn't let him stay wit his family, he instead allowed him follow everywhere

Are these the features of A gay or straight man?

I don't need to join issues with you, because you are in duel with God and he is in war with you already, "omode soko lu 'roko oun boju weyin, oro pe ojo kan naa loluwere npani" I do not need to share in your reproach. Hold on to your genius.That's the interpretation here:


Romans 1:24-27

English Standard Version (ESV)

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.


And your mode of interpretation is that of the wisest fool. You look for "gainsaying" in whatever pleases you, and your logic is simple: Pride. You can not help yourself either, but "Bible bashing" did not start with you. The more you destroy what belongs to others, the less you know how to construct your own.

There are duality in this world, though I do not want to sound metaphysical, but I know there is pride and there is humility.

With pride is "pride of accusation", and with humility is "humility of correction". What makes the difference? A man ruled by pride can never attain the humility of correction because they can not be corrected. Thus they go accusing people, that's their genius, the world is unfair to them.

But the mind ruled by humility of correction find it easy to learn, they do not have to be right by all means, somebody else can take the glory, because the world does not belong to them and so they honour people who has add value to the world and made it a better place than it ever was.

You are here to contribute your "pride of accusation" and it is what you know how to do best, to accuse the brethren and enforce exactly what you know nothing about. I have been reading your irresponsible comments to creative individuals that think creatively to come up with ideas.

Your popular word is "Shut Up"

That's because analysis of the obvious bedevils you, the devil is in the detail, your wit will fall apart on what you don't know. Don't accuse anyone, this Yoruba cause is too profound for your grasp, your genius can not comprehend it, there is no quotes to contradict or manipulate in anger.

People on board of the Yoruba thread arwe far wiser than you, afterall they were on the cause before you register. But pride would not allow you to learn, your "silly Yoruba" is all sufficient, its like you evolve in Iwo Eleru, or check Wikipedia for more answers.

Have you find answers to your Obatala quest? Just keep saying "Obo ngbobo gokpe" and you will have some revelations. Your ancestors were ghosts and energies. Charles Darwin have the missing link to your ancestry, The Great Ape.

macof:

Hebrew 4:15 states that No holy man has been free from moral weakness- must include Yeshua

John 13:23 & 25 A disciple who was the beloved of yeshua, resting on his breast

John 19:26 Mary(his mother) standing by the one he loved

Matthew 19:12 Jesus states that some are born as "eunuchs". and some are made eunuchs of men. And others who have made themselves for that's good for the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 1:24-27 God causing people to be homosexual

Jesus himself acted gay and supported gay, all his ministries professing love to his male disciples and begging them to love him too. In the entire NT Jesus doesn't seem to have feelings for any woman or profess love for any female, he only did that wit his male disciples.

Simon Peter was a married man, he didn't let him stay wit his family, he instead allowed him follow everywhere

Are these the features of A gay or straight man?

I don't need to join issues with you, because you are in duel with God and he is in war with you already, "omode soko lu 'roko oun boju weyin, oro pe ojo kan naa loluwere npani" I do not need to share in your reproach. Hold on to your genius.That's the interpretation here:


Romans 1:24-27

English Standard Version (ESV)

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.


And your mode of interpretation is that of the wisest fool. You look for "gainsaying" in whatever pleases you, and your logic is simple: Pride. You can not help yourself either, but "Bible bashing" did not start with you. The more you destroy what belongs to others, the less you know how to construct your own.

There are duality in this world, though I do not want to sound metaphysical, but I know there is pride and there is humility.

With pride is "pride of accusation", and with humility is "humility of correction". What makes the difference? A man ruled by pride can never attain the humility of correction because they can not be corrected. Thus they go accusing people, that's their genius, the world is unfair to them.

But the mind ruled by humility of correction find it easy to learn, they do not have to be right by all means, somebody else can take the glory, because the world does not belong to them and so they honour people who has add value to the world and made it a better place than it ever was.

You are here to contribute your "pride of accusation" and it is what you know how to do best, to accuse the brethren and enforce exactly what you know nothing about. I have been reading your irresponsible comments to creative individuals that think creatively to come up with ideas.

Your popular word is "Shut Up"

That's because analysis of the obvious bedevils you, the devil is in the detail, your wit will fall apart on what you don't know. Don't accuse anyone, this Yoruba cause is too profound for your grasp, your genius can not comprehend it, there is no quotes to contradict or manipulate in anger.

People on board of the Yoruba thread are far wiser than you, after all they were on the cause before you register. But pride would not allow you to learn, your "silly Yoruba" is all sufficient, its like you evolve in Iwo Eleru, or check Wikipedia for more answers.

Have you find answers to your Obatala quest? Just keep saying "Obo ngbobo gokpe" and you will have some revelations. Your ancestors were ghosts and energies. Charles Darwin have the missing link to your ancestry, The Great Ape.

Katsumoto:

1. I don't agree that Alaafin or Ooni have more authority on Yoruba history than others. Do you acquire knowledge simply by becoming a king or president? Surely their knowledge of Yoruba history and its analysis should have prevented any public squabble between them.

Someone has to have a repository, wether in oral or written form, of the ancestry and bloodline of a lineage. In a society in which these records are transmitted down orally from one head to the other, the constituted head of the lineage becomes the steward of that knowledge. This is so because the purity of the bloodline is valued and if every memberof the family know what the head know or if there are unauthorized keepers of the knowledge then they run a risk of diluting their pedigree. The family ancestry is a treasure of inestimable value. Great societies therefore have distinct creeds, cognomen, guilds, coat of arms, totems, family compound, even body tattoos and facial marks to distinguish its pedigree from others. As always in these societies, the stewardship of the knowledge rests in the Head and not in multiple heads. The Head could be a council or a court or a elders forum..but the authority is distinguishable and is always one, not two or multiples.

This is an orally transmitting society, it maybe different practice in societies where the records are writtfn and available in libraries or internet.

Lets us scale this basic understanding to the Empire level. Oyo Empire was and still is an orally transmitting society. You cannot go to a library or internet and reproduce the drum message with which the Alaafin is greeted in the morning. The drum beat is part of the oral record, its message transcends centuries of service to the Alaafin lineage. There is onlyone way you can get it - from the authority; the drummer and his sons who must serve future Alaafins with this morning alarm beat, and the Aremo who one day must be awakened to its beat.

Likewise, you cannot get the oriki of Alaafin online. There is only one way to obtain it - the authority; the griot who sings the praises and recites the timeline and his sons who shall serve the recitations to future Alaafins, and as well the Alaafin and his princes and princesses who must be praised and taught the timelines of Yoruba history and its Imperial grace.

So it is for the various other rituals and archives stored in the Alaafins palace and kept in human vaults for posterity. These humans are not ordinary heads like us, they have reinforcement made from potions and herbals to aid retention and recall, in addition to genetic preconditioning.

So maybe Im missing something when you say Alaafin cannot be the only authority on the veracity of timelines in his own Empire. I would like to learn and close my knowledge gap if you have something to enlighten me in that regard.



2.

While it is possible that Alaafin Sango read the Quran, it isn't probable. His mother was Nupe and the Nupe didn't accept Islam until the 18th century. The first traders from Mali didn't get to Oyo until the 15th century. In Yoruba tradition, of which the Alaafin is a part of, Sango is celebrated as a pagan god. How then could he have publicly read the Quran? Did he learn it in isolation? Is the current Alaafin himself not a Muslim? Could it be that he is trying to justify his practice of a foreign religion?

We should respect truth when we encounter it and embrace its value.

Alaafin Sango must have reigned in perharps 13th or 14th century, if not earlier.

You yourself have stated that the pre-existence of Islam in Kanem was a factor in cutting short Fodio's ambition in that frontier. Fodio was spreading Islam to lands that had no Islam. Which should explain his invasion of Nupe. Nupe was a land of idol worship and they were idol worshippers in earlier centuries when Sango was born of a Nupe princess. So his maternal root has no influence in him reading the Quran.

In its history, everywhere Islam has been introduced it was done with force and bloodshed. You said Malians were accomodated and built a mosqu in Yorubaland. This is significant! Did they fight to get access and right of way for this mosque? Im sure you are well read and familiar with Malian exploits in the West African belt and how their Sufis, backed with the Moors invaded Ghana, Songhai and sacked their Empires to plant Islam. Why did they not do this to Oyo? Why did Fodio not take Jihad into Oyo?

I have argued with people on the Ilorin saga, that if Fodio was alive..he would have stopped any acts of aggression on Oyo, no matter how provocative.

What was it in the Yoruba race, while Islamic jihadists were spilling blood across the belt, that stopped them from invading Yorubaland? Why did the Malian and the Fulani (Alimi in Ilorin) sought refuge in Oyo?

It is highly suspicious that Muslims will seek refuge and cohabitation with pagans without waging jihad to crush the paganism.

So its either Yoruba were not pagans or these Malian and Fulani settlers were fabrications and never happened and besides,..Fodio must have died right after planting Islam in Nupe and before he could go the extra 30miles into Yoruba country and wipe their paganism out.

These are thought provoking issues and instead of us trying to score intellectual points on who is more intelligent, Im begging the Yorubas here to please put your academic qualifications aside and accept the truth of what is obvious.

On Alaafin's religion, are you aware that he reads both the Bible and Quran? Are you aware that he has been on pilgrimage both to Israel and Mecca?

Obasanjo is Christian and he has written that Yorubas are from Mecca. The Awujale that was recorded to have said publicly that Ijebus are from Sudan was a Christian. Ooni of Ife, who has an order of the British Anglican Faith has never disputed the narrations contained in the myths of Ife and nor has he ever disputed with Alaafin on the question of origin, their feud is primarily on heirarchy and not on origin of the race.

Alaafin's religion has no significant bearing.



3.

There is no common footprint between Yoruba culture and Islam. There are similarities between Yoruba and Christianity as well as other cultures. Many cultures believe/believed in the concept that reality has two parts (male and female, good and evil, etc). The ancient Greeks and Romans were believers of this principle as were many other empires. There are still many cultures/religions that follow this belief system but their interpretations are different. These interpretations believe that the two can be interdependent, mutually independent, complimentary (Hinduism) or antagonistic (Gnostic Christians, Zoroastrianism). Being that humans live on the same planet and derived from the same source, it isn't far fetched why there are similarities between groups of people that are far removed from one another.

Im not talking about cultural similarity between Yoruba and Islam..I said rituals! Ask initiates into Ifa what they do and ask Muslim pilgrims to describe the Hiram process and compare the two.

Where else in Africa do worshippers lay prostrate or kneel and touch forehead to the ground? Please bring these universality to the fore so we can explore their roots.

Customarily in ancient times Yorubas were spiritual Christians.. This is different from religious Christianity which is what is practiced today.

ladionline:


I don't need to join issues with you, because you are in duel with God and he is in war with you already, "omode soko lu 'roko oun boju weyin, oro pe ojo kan naa loluwere npani" I do not need to share in your reproach. Hold on to your genius.That's the interpretation here:


Romans 1:24-27

English Standard Version (ESV)

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.


And your mode of interpretation is that of the wisest fool. You look for "gainsaying" in whatever pleases you, and your logic is simple: Pride. You can not help yourself either, but "Bible bashing" did not start with you. The more you destroy what belongs to others, the less you know how to construct your own.

There are duality in this world, though I do not want to sound metaphysical, but I know there is pride and there is humility.

With pride is "pride of accusation", and with humility is "humility of correction". What makes the difference? A man ruled by pride can never attain the humility of correction because they can not be corrected. Thus they go accusing people, that's their genius, the world is unfair to them.

But the mind ruled by humility of correction find it easy to learn, they do not have to be right by all means, somebody else can take the glory, because the world does not belong to them and so they honour people who has add value to the world and made it a better place than it ever was.

You are here to contribute your "pride of accusation" and it is what you know how to do best, to accuse the brethren and enforce exactly what you know nothing about. I have been reading your irresponsible comments to creative individuals that think creatively to come up with ideas.

Your popular word is "Shut Up"

That's because analysis of the obvious bedevils you, the devil is in the detail, your wit will fall apart on what you don't know. Don't accuse anyone, this Yoruba cause is too profound for your grasp, your genius can not comprehend it, there is no quotes to contradict or manipulate in anger.

People on board of the Yoruba thread are far wiser than you, after all they were on the cause before you register. But pride would not allow you to learn, your "silly Yoruba" is all sufficient, its like you evolve in Iwo Eleru, or check Wikipedia for more answers.

Have you find answers to your Obatala quest? Just keep saying "Obo ngbobo gokpe" and you will have some revelations. Your ancestors were ghosts and energies. Charles Darwin have the missing link to your ancestry, The Great Ape.

Wats all this And why post it 3 times?

macof:

Wats all this And why post it 3 times?

I think you will see some spirituality in it.

MetaPhysical:

Someone has to have a repository, wether in oral or written form, of the ancestry and bloodline of a lineage. In a society in which these records are transmitted down orally from one head to the other, the constituted head of the lineage becomes the steward of that knowledge. This is so because the purity of the bloodline is valued and if every memberof the family know what the head know or if there are unauthorized keepers of the knowledge then they run a risk of diluting their pedigree. The family ancestry is a treasure of inestimable value. Great societies therefore have distinct creeds, cognomen, guilds, coat of arms, totems, family compound, even body tattoos and facial marks to distinguish its pedigree from others. As always in these societies, the stewardship of the knowledge rests in the Head and not in multiple heads. The Head could be a council or a court or a elders forum..but the authority is distinguishable and is always one, not two or multiples.

This is an orally transmitting society, it maybe different practice in societies where the records are writtfn and available in libraries or internet.

Lets us scale this basic understanding to the Empire level. Oyo Empire was and still is an orally transmitting society. You cannot go to a library or internet and reproduce the drum message with which the Alaafin is greeted in the morning. The drum beat is part of the oral record, its message transcends centuries of service to the Alaafin lineage. There is onlyone way you can get it - from the authority; the drummer and his sons who must serve future Alaafins with this morning alarm beat, and the Aremo who one day must be awakened to its beat.

Likewise, you cannot get the oriki of Alaafin online. There is only one way to obtain it - the authority; the griot who sings the praises and recites the timeline and his sons who shall serve the recitations to future Alaafins, and as well the Alaafin and his princes and princesses who must be praised and taught the timelines of Yoruba history and its Imperial grace.

So it is for the various other rituals and archives stored in the Alaafins palace and kept in human vaults for posterity. These humans are not ordinary heads like us, they have reinforcement made from potions and herbals to aid retention and recall, in addition to genetic preconditioning.

So maybe Im missing something when you say Alaafin cannot be the only authority on the veracity of timelines in his own Empire. I would like to learn and close my knowledge gap if you have something to enlighten me in that regard.



2.

We should respect truth when we encounter it and embrace its value.

Alaafin Sango must have reigned in perharps 13th or 14th century, if not earlier.

You yourself have stated that the pre-existence of Islam in Kanem was a factor in cutting short Fodio's ambition in that frontier. Fodio was spreading Islam to lands that had no Islam. Which should explain his invasion of Nupe. Nupe was a land of idol worship and they were idol worshippers in earlier centuries when Sango was born of a Nupe princess. So his maternal root has no influence in him reading the Quran.

In its history, everywhere Islam has been introduced it was done with force and bloodshed. You said Malians were accomodated and built a mosqu in Yorubaland. This is significant! Did they fight to get access and right of way for this mosque? Im sure you are well read and familiar with Malian exploits in the West African belt and how their Sufis, backed with the Moors invaded Ghana, Songhai and sacked their Empires to plant Islam. Why did they not do this to Oyo? Why did Fodio not take Jihad into Oyo?

I have argued with people on the Ilorin saga, that if Fodio was alive..he would have stopped any acts of aggression on Oyo, no matter how provocative.

What was it in the Yoruba race, while Islamic jihadists were spilling blood across the belt, that stopped them from invading Yorubaland? Why did the Malian and the Fulani (Alimi in Ilorin) sought refuge in Oyo?

It is highly suspicious that Muslims will seek refuge and cohabitation with pagans without waging jihad to crush the paganism.

So its either Yoruba were not pagans or these Malian and Fulani settlers were fabrications and never happened and besides,..Fodio must have died right after planting Islam in Nupe and before he could go the extra 30miles into Yoruba country and wipe their paganism out.

These are thought provoking issues and instead of us trying to score intellectual points on who is more intelligent, Im begging the Yorubas here to please put your academic qualifications aside and accept the truth of what is obvious.

On Alaafin's religion, are you aware that he reads both the Bible and Quran? Are you aware that he has been on pilgrimage both to Israel and Mecca?

Obasanjo is Christian and he has written that Yorubas are from Mecca. The Awujale that was recorded to have said publicly that Ijebus are from Sudan was a Christian. Ooni of Ife, who has an order of the British Anglican Faith has never disputed the narrations contained in the myths of Ife and nor has he ever disputed with Alaafin on the question of origin, their feud is primarily on heirarchy and not on origin of the race.

Alaafin's religion has no significant bearing.



3.

Im not talking about cultural similarity between Yoruba and Islam..I said rituals! Ask initiates into Ifa what they do and ask Muslim pilgrims to describe the Hiram process and compare the two.

Where else in Africa do worshippers lay prostrate or kneel and touch forehead to the ground? Please bring these universality to the fore so we can explore their roots.

Customarily in ancient times Yorubas were spiritual Christians.. This is different from religious Christianity which is what is practiced today.

1. I am familiar with the oral process of keeping records in Yorubaland. My point was that if there is no mischief and these means of recording history is infallible, then there shouldn't be any controversies between the Alaafin and the Ooni. If there oral histories are accurate and factual, then everything should be clear to them and everyone else with access to the Oral history. What is the point of extolling the sacrosanctity or Oral history when the two leading authorities are at odds with one another over its accuracy?

2. There are a lot of wrong assumptions here. The invasion of a state by another state is predicated on the belief that the invading state can defeat the state it is invading. That Fulani tried and failed to invade Bornu does not mean that it will try to invade Oyo. That the Malians invaded the moon does not mean it can invade Saturn. The malians and Fodio did not attempt to take Oyo by force because they couldn't. This is not the time to start prevaricating. How do you know that Fodio could have stopped Fulani aggression on Oyo? And what was Fulani aggression? Did the Fulani take Ilorin through aggression or could they have sacked Oyo ile without the assistance of Oyo chiefs who either looked away (Prince Atiba and Adegun the Onikoyi) or laid seige to Oyo (Lanloke of Agodo)? Or was it not Afonja's troops that were used to sack Oyo Ile? Were the Fulani not defeated at Oshogbo in 1840 by the Ibadans? I don't care what the Muslims did in other places, lets not start to speculate about why they didn't sack Oyo. Simple fact is that they didn't.

How could Sango's maternal side influence him to read the Quran when the Nupe didn't convert to Islam until the 18th century? Who could have been carrying Quran about in 14th century Nupeland? Am I missing something here?

3. What is the point you are trying to prove here? That Islam and Yoruba people came into existence at the same time? What is your proof of this other than the illogical analysis you are putting up? I don't see the point of identifying the similarities otherwise; You are obviously suggesting that either Ifa gave rise to Islam or Islam gave rise to Ifa. If you have something tangible to share, by all means do. But there is no way you will convince anyone with a brain that Ifa and Islam are inter-related or derive from one another.

Katsumoto:

1. I am familiar with the oral process of keeping records in Yorubaland. My point was that if there is no mischief and these means of recording history is infallible, then there shouldn't be any controversies between the Alaafin and the Ooni. If there oral histories are accurate and factual, then everything should be clear to them and everyone else with access to the Oral history. What is the point of extolling the sacrosanctity or Oral history when the two leading authorities are at odds with one another over its accuracy?

First, thanks for clarifying and setting my understanding straight.

I like that you are current on these matters. The root of this feud was the politics of Western Nigeria. It has nothing to do with the origin of the race. Ooni Aderemi should not have been choosen or given recognition as the political head of the race. Ife is spiritual heart of Yoruba but Oyo is its political seat of power and Alaafin should have had the Premiership. On the issue of Chairmanship of Obas, the beaded crowns belong to Ife, seat of Oduduwa.

Political meddleness by people untutored in the heirarchies led to conferrement of both positions on Ooni and started this feud. Add to that the fact the two are personally incompatible. Alaafin wanted the Chairmanship rotated between Oyo and Ife but Ife refused.

Their problem center around whether Oranmiyan was an Ooni as well as an Alaafin and which bloodline is entitled to Supremacy over the land and its crowns.


2.

There are a lot of wrong assumptions here. The invasion of a state by another state is predicated on the belief that the invading state can defeat the state it is invading. That Fulani tried and failed to invade Bornu does not mean that it will try to invade Oyo. That the Malians invaded the moon does not mean it can invade Saturn. The malians and Fodio did not attempt to take Oyo by force because they couldn't. This is not the time to start prevaricating. How do you know that Fodio could have stopped Fulani aggression on Oyo? And what was Fulani aggression? Did the Fulani take Ilorin through aggression or could they have sacked Oyo ile without the assistance of Oyo chiefs who either looked away (Prince Atiba and Adegun the Onikoyi) or laid seige to Oyo (Lanloke of Agodo)? Or was it not Afonja's troops that were used to sack Oyo Ile? Were the Fulani not defeated at Oshogbo in 1840 by the Ibadans? I don't care what the Muslims did in other places, lets not start to speculate about why they didn't sack Oyo. Simple fact is that they didn't.

Oh trust me, I do not belittle the might of Oyo and neither am I assigning any super prowess and gallantry to jihadists who invaded and brought other Empires down.

In all of that, what explains cohabitation of Muslim jihadists in the capital city of pagans?

In fact, they warred Kanem and took portions of their territories from them, they had mind to sackthe Mai if they got to his capital, which they did not succeed in.

This had nothing to do with risk assessment of their target's power. Jihadi in Islam has its own creed, it is a separate tradition on its own and the fighters do not view their victories in battle as a human feat. The indoctrination trains invicibility. You are super-imposing the Western idea of warfare and assessment on a Jihadi mission; the two are on extreme ends of one another.

I will not accept your explanation of risk assessment as the deciding factor to explain why Jihadis on two fronts are cohabiting with a supposedly pagan Yoruba Empire when albeit, their soldiers have decidedly visited destruction on other Empires known for worshipping partners with God.

Its okay if you dont know and cant explain these aberration, but dont approach it with the same wild imagination that you accuse me of.
Stick with facts.

How could Sango's maternal side influence him to read the Quran when the Nupe didn't convert to Islam until the 18th century? Who could have been carrying Quran about in 14th century Nupeland? Am I missing something here?

Thats the question Im asking!

Its not a big deal that Sango read the Quran. Yoruba travellers from Katunga were trading up into Kurmi, Kukawa into Darfur and Sudan back in those days and a gift from royal courts of Sudan back to the Oyo court, in form of a Quran, will not be out of place, as is any other article of gift..be it robe, hat or sword. So I get that, it is however amazing that he read the Quran.

Trading is also an exchange of culture. Were there Arab traders in Oyo as were Yoruba traders in Sudan and could this explain the chronology of very early contact with Islam, even centuries before adjoining nations accepted Islam?

This is not to say there weren't Arabs in Nupe or Hausaland..but there is a missing dot or dots in the quest to fully understand the settings and scenarios. Its a puzzle, bit by bit it can be glued together. No one person has the answer but the collective knowledge can make it happen.

Demand for facts is okay for knowledge thats already discovered. How do you then find undiscovered knoeledge? Through free play of imagination and theorizing.


3.

What is the point you are trying to prove here? That Islam and Yoruba people came into existence at the same time? What is your proof of this other than the illogical analysis you are putting up? I don't see the point of identifying the similarities otherwise; You are obviously suggesting that either Ifa gave rise to Islam or Islam gave rise to Ifa. If you have something tangible to share, by all means do. But there is no way you will convince anyone with a brain that Ifa and Islam are inter-related or derive from one another.

I believe I answered this already. There is nothing illogical in theorizing or in rhetorical examination of tangible info to arrive at a more concise facts.

As far as Yoruba history goes there are not too many facts, but there are a lot of truths.

Is it a fact that Sango turned into a stone went into the ground? No, no one can verifiably confirm that; but is it a truth that thunder turned into the lodestone that grounds lightining bolt, the answer is yes it is true.

Is it a fact that Oduduwa descended down a chain from heaven? No. Well, is it true that Oduduwa was the progeny of a lineage in holiness? Yes, it is indeed true.

Its okay to probe for facts when we discuss Archimedes and Plato and other Western institutiins because these knowledge exist in written records. Yoruba records are for most part still unwritten. There are no facts or proves I can give you but there are truths I can present as I know them. If you ask me to validate tje truth I will, I have never failed to validate a truth here. Even those who accuse me of conjectures find it hard to point to any falsehoods in my submissions, but they accuse me nonetheless because it makes them feel good winning the argument.

Katsumoto,
Islam and Yoruba did not come into existence at same time. You have not answered my question.

You said what we notice in these similarities are universal and you will find them in other cultures and humanities worldwide and in response I want you to tell me, beside the Yoruba, which other people in black Africa prostrate and touch their head to ground or kneel and touch their head to the ground in worship.

Do the Zulus do this rite of worahip?
Can you find it in Masai?
Do Xhosas prostrate themselves in worship?
How about the Hutsis?
Do the Bantus, the pygymies, the Fulanis and Hausas do these people kneel or prostrate and kiss the earth with their forehead?
Have you seen the Igbos and Igalas or the Kanuris and the Ijaws prostrate and put head to the ground?
Is it part of Ga culture to do these things?
The Wolof, Bambara, Kyamberi, Zabarma, any of these people prostrate?

These are all people who the Yorubas share the sub saharan Africa with, why can we not find in one of them these simple act of worship? ..but when you go to Mecca and Jerusalem and Vatican you see this is how they worship God. The Hindus and the priests of Lama, this is how they worship God.

Nobody devotes to worship more fanatically than the blackman. If you cannot duplicate this one scenario of worship in sub saharan African stop calling it universal.

It is unique and is a tie, like Oduduwa's chain from heaven.

MetaPhysical: There are three points I will add here.

1. @tpia, your observations of closeness between the rites of Yoruba traditional religion and Islam is another testament on account of a common footprint between the two cultures. New initiates into Ifa go through the exact same rituals that muslim pilgrims to Mecca go through. What is this ritual? It is spiritual cleansing and transformation as a new born. In Christianity it is called baptism.

There is no common footprint.

islam is derived partly from the old Arab religion. Most of the rituals are the same as the pre-islamic era. Even the Hindus do ritual abolution, etc., before prayer.
Even Hindus circambulate their shrines 8-time (more or less) depending on the deity ,etc.
Even Hindus bow before their Gods.


All Pagan Religions are connvected by a thin cord. it is how we were made by the Gods.

it can be considered a miracle, bu there is no direct relationship or necessary contact.

MetaPhysical: A pattern is evolving as I read all these different inputs and Ive made an observation.

For many years the children of babalawo were reduced to studying their father's trade and later taking over the profession. They were mocked and ridiculed as illiterates and belittled. Time has changed! Children of babalawo these days have college degrees, they earn masters degree. Their knowledge and scholarship, the double whammy of a western education and traditional esoteric insights, is what will advance Yorubaland and open the culture to true inquiry, in art and science, and free of foreign bias. They will posess far more aptitude than Yoruba children who had no exposure to Ifa corpus and understand the energy theories in a much richer context than their global peers.

This is the edge Chinese children today have over Western children - study of cosmic principles and hermeneutics.

When I have children they will be enrolled to study Ifa.

I have Yoruba friends who are in their teens and are already on the road to becoming Babalawos.

Did you read my thread about the Ifa University?

By the time Europeans got to Oyo they found that some Oyo traders could write in Arabic and speak Arabic as well

Oyo katunga probably had a,lot of dealing wit Muslims because a mosque was already built for visitors in the 16th century

Katsumoto:

Correct. It was a corruption.

Agreed. it's a corruption. Islam is actually Esin awon Larubawa (Religion of the Arabs).

MetaPhysical:

First, thanks for clarifying and setting my understanding straight.

I like that you are current on these matters. The root of this feud was the politics of Western Nigeria. It has nothing to do with the origin of the race. Ooni Aderemi should not have been choosen or given recognition as the political head of the race. Ife is spiritual heart of Yoruba but Oyo is its political seat of power and Alaafin should have had the Premiership. On the issue of Chairmanship of Obas, the beaded crowns belong to Ife, seat of Oduduwa.

Political meddleness by people untutored in the heirarchies led to conferrement of both positions on Ooni and started this feud. Add to that the fact the two are personally incompatible. Alaafin wanted the Chairmanship rotated between Oyo and Ife but Ife refused.

Their problem center around whether Oranmiyan was an Ooni as well as an Alaafin and which bloodline is entitled to Supremacy over the land and its crowns.


2.

Oh trust me, I do not belittle the might of Oyo and neither am I assigning any super prowess and gallantry to jihadists who invaded and brought other Empires down.

In all of that, what explains cohabitation of Muslim jihadists in the capital city of pagans?

In fact, they warred Kanem and took portions of their territories from them, they had mind to sackthe Mai if they got to his capital, which they did not succeed in.

This had nothing to do with risk assessment of their target's power. Jihadi in Islam has its own creed, it is a separate tradition on its own and the fighters do not view their victories in battle as a human feat. The indoctrination trains invicibility. You are super-imposing the Western idea of warfare and assessment on a Jihadi mission; the two are on extreme ends of one another.

I will not accept your explanation of risk assessment as the deciding factor to explain why Jihadis on two fronts are cohabiting with a supposedly pagan Yoruba Empire when albeit, their soldiers have decidedly visited destruction on other Empires known for worshipping partners with God.

Its okay if you dont know and cant explain these aberration, but dont approach it with the same wild imagination that you accuse me of.
Stick with facts.




Thats the question Im asking!

Its not a big deal that Sango read the Quran. Yoruba travellers from Katunga were trading up into Kurmi, Kukawa into Darfur and Sudan back in those days and a gift from royal courts of Sudan back to the Oyo court, in form of a Quran, will not be out of place, as is any other article of gift..be it robe, hat or sword. So I get that, it is however amazing that he read the Quran.

Trading is also an exchange of culture. Were there Arab traders in Oyo as were Yoruba traders in Sudan and could this explain the chronology of very early contact with Islam, even centuries before adjoining nations accepted Islam?

This is not to say there weren't Arabs in Nupe or Hausaland..but there is a missing dot or dots in the quest to fully understand the settings and scenarios. Its a puzzle, bit by bit it can be glued together. No one person has the answer but the collective knowledge can make it happen.

Demand for facts is okay for knowledge thats already discovered. How do you then find undiscovered knoeledge? Through free play of imagination and theorizing.


3.

I believe I answered this already. There is nothing illogical in theorizing or in rhetorical examination of tangible info to arrive at a more concise facts.

As far as Yoruba history goes there are not too many facts, but there are a lot of truths.

Is it a fact that Sango turned into a stone went into the ground? No, no one can verifiably confirm that; but is it a truth that thunder turned into the lodestone that grounds lightining bolt, the answer is yes it is true.

Is it a fact that Oduduwa descended down a chain from heaven? No. Well, is it true that Oduduwa was the progeny of a lineage in holiness? Yes, it is indeed true.

Its okay to probe for facts when we discuss Archimedes and Plato and other Western institutiins because these knowledge exist in written records. Yoruba records are for most part still unwritten. There are no facts or proves I can give you but there are truths I can present as I know them. If you ask me to validate tje truth I will, I have never failed to validate a truth here. Even those who accuse me of conjectures find it hard to point to any falsehoods in my submissions, but they accuse me nonetheless because it makes them feel good winning the argument.

Katsumoto,
Islam and Yoruba did not come into existence at same time. You have not answered my question.

You said what we notice in these similarities are universal and you will find them in other cultures and humanities worldwide and in response I want you to tell me, beside the Yoruba, which other people in black Africa prostrate and touch their head to ground or kneel and touch their head to the ground in worship.

Do the Zulus do this rite of worahip?
Can you find it in Masai?
Do Xhosas prostrate themselves in worship?
How about the Hutsis?
Do the Bantus, the pygymies, the Fulanis and Hausas do these people kneel or prostrate and kiss the earth with their forehead?
Have you seen the Igbos and Igalas or the Kanuris and the Ijaws prostrate and put head to the ground?
Is it part of Ga culture to do these things?
The Wolof, Bambara, Kyamberi, Zabarma, any of these people prostrate?

These are all people who the Yorubas share the sub saharan Africa with, why can we not find in one of them these simple act of worship? ..but when you go to Mecca and Jerusalem and Vatican you see this is how they worship God. The Hindus and the priests of Lama, this is how they worship God.

Nobody devotes to worship more fanatically than the blackman. If you cannot duplicate this one scenario of worship in sub saharan African stop calling it universal.

It is unique and is a tie, like Oduduwa's chain from heaven.

1. We are now in the 21st century. No Oba should be arguing for supremacy. Oramiyan wasn't the only child of Oduduwa and Oduduwa himself wasn't the progenitor of the Yoruba people. The Ifa corpus existed before Oduduwa and it is the guiding consult for Yoruba people. Ife being the home of Ifa leads it it to be the spiritual home of the Yoruba. Oyo derived supremacy through military conquest between the 16th and 18th century. It had no relevance after the death of Alaafin Aole and in all fairness, most likely after the reign of Alaafin Abiodun. Oyo was a spectator when the major Yoruba kingdoms of the 19th century battled themselves to a draw. In terms of political relevance, no one is more superior to the other. In terms of spirituality, Ife is superior to others. One can argue that the Western region government elevated the Ooni in the 20th century but one can also argue that the British elevated an irrelevant Oyo kingdom when treaties were being signed at the end of the 19th century.

2 & 3. This is a lot of conjecture and not grounded in any fact. Who said there were Muslim jihadists in Oyo? History tells us they were traders. What book did you read that states all Muslims were Jihadists or that the ones in Oyo were jihadists. Malian traders started to go to Oyo after the time of Mansa Musa, who was the richest man in the world at the time. He, like other malians at the time, were traders. Could they have been traders and jihadists at the same time?

I am sticking with the facts; you are the one conjecturing. Jihad in Islam had a creed, if this creed is sacrosanct, why didn't the Muslims take back the Iberian Peninsula after being expelled in the 14th century? Why didn't this Muslims take the Bornu-Kanem empire? Why didn't this Muslims return to take Yorubaland after the defeat at Oshogbo? What was even the point of taking Bornu? Heck, where were the Jihadists of the ottomans during the first and second world wars? You give too much importance to Jihadists and their actions. You make it seem like all Jihads were successful. You say it is amazing that Sango read the Quran, who says that is a fact? Certainly not oral or written history. It is only in the minds of those who are bent in romantic religious fantasy. If Sango read the Quran, why didn't the other Alaafins read the Quran? Was Oyo a powerful state during the time of Sango? How far did Oyo's influence go during Sango's time? It is possible Sango was given a Quran but that is mere conjecture.

Touching of head and kneeling is not conclusive evidence of a link between Yoruba and Islam. We are all from the same source and are bound to have to some similarities. If you are so bent on making this point, what is it's relevance? Did Islam derive from Yoruba? We know that is not true. Did Yoruba derive from Islam, we also know that not to be true. I am still waiting for you to make your point; what is the point of all this conjecture? And when you make your point, please provide the facts. Do not mix facts with conjecture and then expect everyone else to accept the conjecture.

PAGAN 9JA:


There is no common footprint.

islam is derived partly from the old Arab religion. Most of the rituals are the same as the pre-islamic era. Even the Hindus do ritual abolution, etc., before prayer.
Even Hindus circambulate their shrines 8-time (more or less) depending on the deity ,etc.
Even Hindus bow before their Gods.


All Pagan Religions are connvected by a thin cord. it is how we were made by the Gods.

it can be considered a miracle, bu there is no direct relationship or necessary contact.

Thank You!! Now, stay on that thought..

Islam has many pillars and traditions, I hope you are familiar with them. Give us top 10 listing of articles of Islamic faith borrowed from pre Islamic Arab. We will go around the globe and test their universality and see where we find traces of these old practice.

Over to you..

Katsumoto:

1. We are now in the 21st century. No Oba should be arguing for supremacy. Oramiyan wasn't the only child of Oduduwa and Oduduwa himself wasn't the progenitor of the Yoruba people. The Ifa corpus existed before Oduduwa and it is the guiding consult for Yoruba people. Ife being the home of Ifa leads it it to be the spiritual home of the Yoruba. Oyo derived supremacy through military conquest between the 16th and 18th century. It had no relevance after the death of Alaafin Aole and in all fairness, most likely after the reign of Alaafin Abiodun. Oyo was a spectator when the major Yoruba kingdoms of the 19th century battled themselves to a draw. In terms of political relevance, no one is more superior to the other. In terms of spirituality, Ife is superior to others. One can argue that the Western region government elevated the Ooni in the 20th century but one can also argue that the British elevated an irrelevant Oyo kingdom when treaties were being signed at the end of the 19th century.

2 & 3. This is a lot of conjecture and not grounded in any fact. Who said there were Muslim jihadists in Oyo? History tells us they were traders. What book did you read that states all Muslims were Jihadists or that the ones in Oyo were jihadists. Malian traders started to go to Oyo after the time of Mansa Musa, who was the richest man in the world at the time. He, like other malians at the time, were traders. Could they have been traders and jihadists at the same time?

I am sticking with the facts; you are the one conjecturing. Jihad in Islam had a creed, if this creed is sacrosanct, why didn't the Muslims take back the Iberian Peninsula after being expelled in the 14th century? Why didn't this Muslims take the Bornu-Kanem empire? Why didn't this Muslims return to take Yorubaland after the defeat at Oshogbo? What was even the point of taking Bornu? Heck, where were the Jihadists of the ottomans during the first and second world wars? You give too much importance to Jihadists and their actions. You make it seem like all Jihads were successful. You say it is amazing that Sango read the Quran, who says that is a fact? Certainly not oral or written history. It is only in the minds of those who are bent in romantic religious fantasy. If Sango read the Quran, why didn't the other Alaafins read the Quran? Was Oyo a powerful state during the time of Sango? How far did Oyo's influence go during Sango's time? It is possible Sango was given a Quran but that is mere conjecture.

Touching of head and kneeling is not conclusive evidence of a link between Yoruba and Islam. We are all from the same source and are bound to have to some similarities. If you are so bent on making this point, what is it's relevance? Did Islam derive from Yoruba? We know that is not true. Did Yoruba derive from Islam, we also know that not to be true. I am still waiting for you to make your point; what is the point of all this conjecture? And when you make your point, please provide the facts. Do not mix facts with conjecture and then expect everyone else to accept the conjecture.

This is all orbital dance demanding over and again to provide what I already admitted its impossible to prove in an oral transmission society.

On 1, yes it is 21st century, succeeding Presidents in America bash one another all the time. What has the era got to do with political conflict? It doesnt matter if its 13th century or 30th century, political feuds are what they are, time does not mature the conflicts.

My point on the issue is a emphasis that, inspite of that conflict, they are united in where Yoruba originated from. If you say Alaafin is biased towards Arabia because he is Muslim, I already told you Ooni is a member of the inner order of the Anglican Church. These two authorities are consistent on where Yoruba root is, inspite of their political disagreement and their different faiths. If you ask for this fact I will refer you to the narrations published by John Wyndham in which a former Ooni and Araba shared this information. You know what publication Im talking about - Myths of Ife.
Its interesting you said Ifa is the Yoruba manuscript and scripture. Well, Araba is its steward.

On 2 and 3. I see your mischief rising to the surface! Go ahead and label me a jihadist, in addition to other things you already charged me with.

Nonetheless, as I said, admit when you have no knowledge and dont feign authority on subjects you are not grounded in. All those merry go rounds about Iberian Peninsula and Kanem and Mansa Musa is all smoke screen you are using to mask your lack of understanding. To clarify, I will ask you again.

You said Malians had a mosque in Oyo and they were Yorubas first contact with Islam. I m asking, going by Alaafin (an authority on Yoruba history and timeline) claim that Sango read the Quran, this would have put the Yoruba/Islam contact at a much earlier era than the Malian footprint, considering Sango was Alaafin around 13th century, and in a supposedly pagan society, who was responsible for aiding his reading or understanding of the Quran? Whoever that was would be the first contact and the timeline you gave of Malian can be revised. Of note, Sango's influence in expanding the Empire cannot be ignored.

So far you have given two unacceptable answers
1. That Alaafin is religiously biased.
2. That Jihadis used risk assessment to test their target.

Its a simple question but your incessant fact consuming mind has beclouded your ability to address it simply.


On universality of traditions and acts of worship, I wil reserve my answer to you. You will get it when Pagan 9ja returns with his top 10 list.

MetaPhysical:

This is all orbital dance demanding over and again to provide what I already admitted its impossible to prove in an oral transmission society.

On 1, yes it is 21st century, succeeding Presidents in America bash one another all the time. What has the era got to do with political conflict? It doesnt matter if its 13th century or 30th century, political feuds are what they are, time does not mature the conflicts.

My point on the issue is a emphasis that, inspite of that conflict, they are united in where Yoruba originated from. If you say Alaafin is biased towards Arabia because he is Muslim, I already told you Ooni is a member of the inner order of the Anglican Church. These two authorities are consistent on where Yoruba root is, inspite of their political disagreement and their different faiths. If you ask for this fact I will refer you to the narrations published by John Wyndham in which a former Ooni and Araba shared this information. You know what publication Im talking about - Myths of Ife.
Its interesting you said Ifa is the Yoruba manuscript and scripture. Well, Araba is its steward.

On 2 and 3. I see your mischief rising to the surface! Go ahead and label me a jihadist, in addition to other things you already charged me with.

Nonetheless, as I said, admit when you have no knowledge and dont feign authority on subjects you are not grounded in. All those merry go rounds about Iberian Peninsula and Kanem and Mansa Musa is all smoke screen you are using to mask your lack of understanding. To clarify, I will ask you again.

You said Malians had a mosque in Oyo and they were Yorubas first contact with Islam. I m asking, going by Alaafin (an authority on Yoruba history and timeline) claim that Sango read the Quran, this would have put the Yoruba/Islam contact at a much earlier era than the Malian footprint, considering Sango was Alaafin around 13th century, and in a supposedly pagan society, who was responsible for aiding his reading or understanding of the Quran? Whoever that was would be the first contact and the timeline you gave of Malian can be revised. Of note, Sango's influence in expanding the Empire cannot be ignored.

So far you have given two unacceptable answers
1. That Alaafin is religiously biased.
2. That Jihadis used risk assessment to test their target.

Its a simple question but your incessant fact consuming mind has beclouded your ability to address it simply.


On universality of traditions and acts of worship, I wil reserve my answer to you. You will get it when Pagan 9ja returns with his top 10 list.

Mischief from me. You are the one talking about events that are not recorded and then saying I am ignorant of events that you acknowledge are not recorded. You claim Sango read the Quran. Where is the record of this?

You can not use conjecture to convince people. The basis of your position is religious fantasy. I never claimed to be an authority on any subject. What I seek from you is verifiable evidence that Islam was present in Yorubaland pre-Sango (since you allege someone must have helped Sango read the Quran).

And don't put words in my mouth (figuratively speaking), I never stated that Jihadists used Risk Assessment. The presence of Muslims in Oyo does not mean there were Jihadists there.

Can we stick to facts and ignore the rest of the conjectural bunkum? Please

Did Mali invade Oyo? No
Did Mali invade other parts of West Africa - Yes, Northern Ghana
Did Fulani invade Oyo? First, to sack Oyo with the aid of Yoruba chiefs. And second, were defeated at Oshogbo by the Ibadans.
Did Sango read Quron? We don't know but most probably not
When was Islam accepted in Yorubaland - 17th - 18th centuries


In the absence of providing quotes from Patrick Ryan's Book (Yoruba Participation in the Muslim Tradition), please read the following:

'Islam came to Yoruba land centuries before Christianity, and before churches were built, Yoruba came in contact with Islam around 14th and 15th during the reign of Mansa Kankan Musa of Mali Empire. According to Al-Aluri, the first Mosque was built in Ọyọ-Ile in 1550 A.D. [size=14pt]although, there were no Yoruba Muslims[/size], the Mosque only served the spiritual needs of foreign Muslims living in Ọyọ.
Progressively, Islam came to Yoruba land, and muslims started building Mosques:
Iwo town led, its first Mosque built in 1655; followed by Iṣẹyin, in 1760; Lagos, 1774; Ṣaki, 1790; and Oṣogbo, 1889. In time, Islam spread to other towns, like Oyo (the first Oyo convert was Solagberu), Ibadan, Abẹokuta, Ijẹbu-Ode, Ikirun and Ẹdẹ; even before Sokoto jihad.
Several factors contributed to the rise of Islam in Yoruba land by mid 19th century. Before the decline of Ọyọ, several towns around it had large Muslim communities; unfortunately, when Ọyọ was destroyed, these Muslims (Yoruba and immigrants) relocated to newly formed towns and villages and became Islam protagonists.
Second, there was mass movement of people at this time into Yoruba land, many of these immigrants were Muslims who introduced Islam to their host. According to Eades, the religion “differed in attraction” and “better adapted to Yoruba social structure, because it permitted polygamy”; more influential Yoruba like (Seriki Kuku of Ijebu land) soon became Muslims with positive impact on the natives.'

http://yorupedia.com/subjects/yoruba-religion/islam/

'Professor Abdulfatah started his lecture by giving history of the advent of Islam in Southern Nigeria. He said, contrary to what some historians say that Islam reached South West Nigeria in 17th century, the professor explained that the advent of Islam in Southern Nigeria particularly the Yoruba land is traced back to 14th century from Mali during the era of Mansa Musa of Mali empire; at the time the Yoruba called Islam as Isemali ie the religion of Mali.'

http://www.islamicmovement.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=613:islam-in-southern-nigeria&catid=41:frontpage


These are the facts; there is no need for religious fantasy when there are recorded facts to provide guidance. You are most likely a Muslim and are holding on to some kind of fallacy to serve your fantasies.

Katsumoto:

1. I am familiar with the oral process of keeping records in Yorubaland. My point was that if there is no mischief and these means of recording history is infallible, then there shouldn't be any controversies between the Alaafin and the Ooni. If there oral histories are accurate and factual, then everything should be clear to them and everyone else with access to the Oral history. What is the point of extolling the sacrosanctity or Oral history when the two leading authorities are at odds with one another over its accuracy?

Didn't the controversies start with the present enthronement of Okunade Sijuwade as the Ooni? Was there any such tango between previous Oonis and Alaafins?

Pukkah:

Didn't the controversies start with the present enthronement of Okunade Sijuwade as the Ooni? Was there any such tango between previous Oonis and Alaafins?

It is not about what event or which personality started it, it is about ego and self-interest seeking to rise above facts. If we use oral history alone; the truth of a subject matter should be the same to both Alaafin and Ooni. The position of the Ooni is clear to all, as the Spiritual head of the Yoruba. Alaafin is not the only child of Oduduwa so he can't be more important than the others. Nor can he be more important than those not sired by Oduduwa because Yoruba did not start with Oduduwa.

Katsumoto--you've done an excellent job of explaining the objections many people have to this fanciful idea deriving Yoruba culture from Islamic traditions. It is a puzzling and generally meaningless pursuit for non-Muslims, and I think ethical and objective Muslim readers would find it full of holes as well. It doesn't matter how many times you point the fallacies though; people will continue to filter their ancestral origins and cultures through the lens of their imported religion of choice. Thankfully, the vast majority of reputable scholars on Yoruba history and culture do not give any credence to this theory.

One small quibble I had with your statement that "Yoruba did not start with Oduduwa". I've said it on Nairaland and elsewhere several times that the myth of a wandering Oduduwa who landed at Ife from some foreign shores seems likely to be a 20th century invention, possibly inspired by Judeo-Christian/Islamic adherents (similar to some in this thread) who wished to find prestigious Middle Eastern origins for their culture. I don't want the post to be lengthy so I'll keep my references to sources short, but I can provide them for people who are interested. To my knowledge, the overwhelming amount of "historical" references to a male king who settled in Ife from "somewhere else" named Oduduwa and who had 7 or 16 sons (take your pick) that he sent out to the rest of the Yoruba-speaking world are from relatively late 20th century sources. This is not to say that the myth did not exist; there are theatrical combat festivals in Ife which have been interpreted as memorializing the "war" between the Obatala and Oduduwa "factions". I question the interpretations in light of the fact that virtually every reference to Oduduwa/Odua/Oduwa before Reverend Johnson's "History of the Yoruba" depicts Oduduwa as a woman, most often the wife of Obatala, and often another term for "Ile", the earth. In some cases, it appears that mythical combat between light and dark, or between urban civilization and the forest, have been misinterpreted as historical battles between human personae. The name "Oduduwa" is given a fairly straightforward translation in these older sources as well--"Odu Iwa", a cognate term to "Olu Iwa (modern "Oluwa" ) since "Odu" is an older Yoruba term for a chief, a potentate, or a large container, like a calabash. Similarly, these early chroniclers follow Bishop Ajayi Crowther in describing Oduduwa as one half of a calabash, the other being Obatala. The juxtaposition of Obatala (translation: "leader of the white cloth/whiteness" ) and Oduduwa (meaning something like "leader/regent of blackness/existence" ) adds a logical appeal to this myth.

This description is consistent from the earliest recorded references I'm aware of (in Bishop Crowther's 1851 dictionary), through the various other missionaries and expedition reports to R.E. Dennet's "Nigerian Studies". As late as the 1950s, Geoffrey Parrinder was told by the Alaketu and his advisors in that ancient Yoruba kingdom that Oduduwa was a woman. It's not a minor point to stress, since Ketu is often cited as one of the oldest kingdoms derived from Ife. Ketu was also somewhat isolated from the modernizing trends going on Nigerian historiography during the late colonial period, when literate Yoruba scholars were reading Reverend Johnson's book and re-distributing it's point of view as the "official" history of the Yorubas. It is unlikely that the Alaketu (who supplied the information) would have been as aware of Reverend Johnson's book, living as he did in a Francophone town removed from Nigerian political developments which may have shaped 20th-century reinterpretations of Oduduwa's identity. It is why I find the fantastic stories of Oduduwa's "journey" from Mecca, Egypt, northeastern Nigeria--and most recently Benin--to be highly unlikely, and supported by little more than the religious and ethno-political motivations of the day.

Since Reverend Johnson's book got published in 1921, the tide has changed and virtually all modern discussions about Oduduwa center on the idea that "he" was a man and a foreigner of some sort to Ile-Ife. This idea may have its own appeal to modern sensibilities, but it does not seem to be supported in the older documentation. "Yoruba"--if we take that to mean the people who point to Ile-Ife as their cultural homeland and who speak the related dialects of the same language--did start with Oduduwa, since the oldest depictions we have access to suggest that Oduduwa was a mythological Earth mother who gave birth to this culture. These are just my thoughts though--I like to hear other informed perspectives.

Katsumoto:

Mischief from me. You are the one talking about events that are not recorded and then saying I am ignorant of events that you acknowledge are not recorded. You claim Sango read the Quran. Where is the record of this?

You can not use conjecture to convince people. The basis of your position is religious fantasy. I never claimed to be an authority on any subject. What I seek from you is verifiable evidence that Islam was present in Yorubaland pre-Sango (since you allege someone must have helped Sango read the Quran).

And don't put words in my mouth (figuratively speaking), I never stated that Jihadists used Risk Assessment. The presence of Muslims in Oyo does not mean there were Jihadists there.

Can we stick to facts and ignore the rest of the conjectural bunkum? Please

Did Mali invade Oyo? No
Did Mali invade other parts of West Africa - Yes, Northern Ghana
Did Fulani invade Oyo? First, to sack Oyo with the aid of Yoruba chiefs. And second, were defeated at Oshogbo by the Ibadans.
Did Sango read Quron? We don't know but most probably not
When was Islam accepted in Yorubaland - 17th - 18th centuries


In the absence of providing quotes from Patrick Ryan's Book (Yoruba Participation in the Muslim Tradition), please read the following:

'Islam came to Yoruba land centuries before Christianity, and before churches were built, Yoruba came in contact with Islam around 14th and 15th during the reign of Mansa Kankan Musa of Mali Empire. According to Al-Aluri, the first Mosque was built in Ọyọ-Ile in 1550 A.D. [size=14pt]although, there were no Yoruba Muslims[/size], the Mosque only served the spiritual needs of foreign Muslims living in Ọyọ.
Progressively, Islam came to Yoruba land, and muslims started building Mosques:
Iwo town led, its first Mosque built in 1655; followed by Iṣẹyin, in 1760; Lagos, 1774; Ṣaki, 1790; and Oṣogbo, 1889. In time, Islam spread to other towns, like Oyo (the first Oyo convert was Solagberu), Ibadan, Abẹokuta, Ijẹbu-Ode, Ikirun and Ẹdẹ; even before Sokoto jihad.
Several factors contributed to the rise of Islam in Yoruba land by mid 19th century. Before the decline of Ọyọ, several towns around it had large Muslim communities; unfortunately, when Ọyọ was destroyed, these Muslims (Yoruba and immigrants) relocated to newly formed towns and villages and became Islam protagonists.
Second, there was mass movement of people at this time into Yoruba land, many of these immigrants were Muslims who introduced Islam to their host. According to Eades, the religion “differed in attraction” and “better adapted to Yoruba social structure, because it permitted polygamy”; more influential Yoruba like (Seriki Kuku of Ijebu land) soon became Muslims with positive impact on the natives.'

http://yorupedia.com/subjects/yoruba-religion/islam/

'Professor Abdulfatah started his lecture by giving history of the advent of Islam in Southern Nigeria. He said, contrary to what some historians say that Islam reached South West Nigeria in 17th century, the professor explained that the advent of Islam in Southern Nigeria particularly the Yoruba land is traced back to 14th century from Mali during the era of Mansa Musa of Mali empire; at the time the Yoruba called Islam as Isemali ie the religion of Mali.'

http://www.islamicmovement.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=613:islam-in-southern-nigeria&catid=41:frontpage


These are the facts; there is no need for religious fantasy when there are recorded facts to provide guidance. You are most likely a Muslim and are holding on to some kind of fallacy to serve your fantasies.

What makes all these references facts? Is it because it is published in writing and therefore it is fact?

If you see where it is said that Sango read the Quran will you become a believer?

TerraCotta: Katsumoto--you've done an excellent job of explaining the objections many people have to this fanciful idea deriving Yoruba culture from Islamic traditions. It is a puzzling and generally meaningless pursuit for non-Muslims, and I think ethical and objective Muslim readers would find it full of holes as well. It doesn't matter how many times you point the fallacies though; people will continue to filter their ancestral origins and cultures through the lens of their imported religion of choice. Thankfully, the vast majority of reputable scholars on Yoruba history and culture do not give any credence to this theory.

One small quibble I had with your statement that "Yoruba did not start with Oduduwa". I've said it on Nairaland and elsewhere several times that the myth of a wandering Oduduwa who landed at Ife from some foreign shores seems likely to be a 20th century invention, possibly inspired by Judeo-Christian/Islamic adherents (similar to some in this thread) who wished to find prestigious Middle Eastern origins for their culture. I don't want the post to be lengthy so I'll keep my references to sources short, but I can provide them for people who are interested. To my knowledge, the overwhelming amount of "historical" references to a male king who settled in Ife from "somewhere else" named Oduduwa and who had 7 or 16 sons (take your pick) that he sent out to the rest of the Yoruba-speaking world are from relatively late 20th century sources. This is not to say that the myth did not exist; there are theatrical combat festivals in Ife which have been interpreted as memorializing the "war" between the Obatala and Oduduwa "factions". I question the interpretations in light of the fact that virtually every reference to Oduduwa/Odua/Oduwa before Reverend Johnson's "History of the Yoruba" depicts Oduduwa as a woman, most often the wife of Obatala, and often another term for "Ile", the earth. In some cases, it appears that mythical combat between light and dark, or between urban civilization and the forest, have been misinterpreted as historical battles between human personae. The name "Oduduwa" is given a fairly straightforward translation in these older sources as well--"Odu Iwa", a cognate term to "Olu Iwa (modern "Oluwa" ) since "Odu" is an older Yoruba term for a chief, a potentate, or a large container, like a calabash. Similarly, these early chroniclers follow Bishop Ajayi Crowther in describing Oduduwa as one half of a calabash, the other being Obatala. The juxtaposition of Obatala (translation: "leader of the white cloth/whiteness" ) and Oduduwa (meaning something like "leader/regent of blackness/existence" ) adds a logical appeal to this myth.

This description is consistent from the earliest recorded references I'm aware of (in Bishop Crowther's 1851 dictionary), through the various other missionaries and expedition reports to R.E. Dennet's "Nigerian Studies". As late as the 1950s, Geoffrey Parrinder was told by the Alaketu and his advisors in that ancient Yoruba kingdom that Oduduwa was a woman. It's not a minor point to stress, since Ketu is often cited as one of the oldest kingdoms derived from Ife. Ketu was also somewhat isolated from the modernizing trends going on Nigerian historiography during the late colonial period, when literate Yoruba scholars were reading Reverend Johnson's book and re-distributing it's point of view as the "official" history of the Yorubas. It is unlikely that the Alaketu (who supplied the information) would have been as aware of Reverend Johnson's book, living as he did in a Francophone town removed from Nigerian political developments which may have shaped 20th-century reinterpretations of Oduduwa's identity. It is why I find the fantastic stories of Oduduwa's "journey" from Mecca, Egypt, northeastern Nigeria--and most recently Benin--to be highly unlikely, and supported by little more than the religious and ethno-political motivations of the day.

Since Reverend Johnson's book got published in 1921, the tide has changed and virtually all modern discussions about Oduduwa center on the idea that "he" was a man and a foreigner of some sort to Ile-Ife. This idea may have its own appeal to modern sensibilities, but it does not seem to be supported in the older documentation. "Yoruba"--if we take that to mean the people who point to Ile-Ife as their cultural homeland and who speak the related dialects of the same language--did start with Oduduwa, since the oldest depictions we have access to suggest that Oduduwa was a mythological Earth mother who gave birth to this culture. These are just my thoughts though--I like to hear other informed perspectives.

It is interesting that what you shared here is not in writing and cannot be proven, but you clarified it as your thoughts..or suspicions, given other factors that lend credence to it. Right?

What then is the problem that other thoughts in contradiction of your position must be asked to provide proof, facts and when they dont they are labeled conjectures.

Can you prove your thoughts up there? Im sure not, neither are any facts available specific to the conclusion you surmised. Yet, honestly, it is logical, even though I do not suvscribe to it.

There are many sides to it and each side should erect its theories..but you guys on the indigeneous theory somehow are intimidated by the advocates of the foreign footsteps and it shows in your response. This is the problem I have with you all, not that your theories are not legitimate, your attempt to assert authority on the subject of origin is hugely Eurocentric and unacceptable.

TerraCotta: Katsumoto--you've done an excellent job of explaining the objections many people have to this fanciful idea deriving Yoruba culture from Islamic traditions. It is a puzzling and generally meaningless pursuit for non-Muslims, and I think ethical and objective Muslim readers would find it full of holes as well. It doesn't matter how many times you point the fallacies though; people will continue to filter their ancestral origins and cultures through the lens of their imported religion of choice. Thankfully, the vast majority of reputable scholars on Yoruba history and culture do not give any credence to this theory.

One small quibble I had with your statement that "Yoruba did not start with Oduduwa". I've said it on Nairaland and elsewhere several times that the myth of a wandering Oduduwa who landed at Ife from some foreign shores seems likely to be a 20th century invention, possibly inspired by Judeo-Christian/Islamic adherents (similar to some in this thread) who wished to find prestigious Middle Eastern origins for their culture. I don't want the post to be lengthy so I'll keep my references to sources short, but I can provide them for people who are interested. To my knowledge, the overwhelming amount of "historical" references to a male king who settled in Ife from "somewhere else" named Oduduwa and who had 7 or 16 sons (take your pick) that he sent out to the rest of the Yoruba-speaking world are from relatively late 20th century sources. This is not to say that the myth did not exist; there are theatrical combat festivals in Ife which have been interpreted as memorializing the "war" between the Obatala and Oduduwa "factions". I question the interpretations in light of the fact that virtually every reference to Oduduwa/Odua/Oduwa before Reverend Johnson's "History of the Yoruba" depicts Oduduwa as a woman, most often the wife of Obatala, and often another term for "Ile", the earth. In some cases, it appears that mythical combat between light and dark, or between urban civilization and the forest, have been misinterpreted as historical battles between human personae. The name "Oduduwa" is given a fairly straightforward translation in these older sources as well--"Odu Iwa", a cognate term to "Olu Iwa (modern "Oluwa" ) since "Odu" is an older Yoruba term for a chief, a potentate, or a large container, like a calabash. Similarly, these early chroniclers follow Bishop Ajayi Crowther in describing Oduduwa as one half of a calabash, the other being Obatala. The juxtaposition of Obatala (translation: "leader of the white cloth/whiteness" ) and Oduduwa (meaning something like "leader/regent of blackness/existence" ) adds a logical appeal to this myth.

This description is consistent from the earliest recorded references I'm aware of (in Bishop Crowther's 1851 dictionary), through the various other missionaries and expedition reports to R.E. Dennet's "Nigerian Studies". As late as the 1950s, Geoffrey Parrinder was told by the Alaketu and his advisors in that ancient Yoruba kingdom that Oduduwa was a woman. It's not a minor point to stress, since Ketu is often cited as one of the oldest kingdoms derived from Ife. Ketu was also somewhat isolated from the modernizing trends going on Nigerian historiography during the late colonial period, when literate Yoruba scholars were reading Reverend Johnson's book and re-distributing it's point of view as the "official" history of the Yorubas. It is unlikely that the Alaketu (who supplied the information) would have been as aware of Reverend Johnson's book, living as he did in a Francophone town removed from Nigerian political developments which may have shaped 20th-century reinterpretations of Oduduwa's identity. It is why I find the fantastic stories of Oduduwa's "journey" from Mecca, Egypt, northeastern Nigeria--and most recently Benin--to be highly unlikely, and supported by little more than the religious and ethno-political motivations of the day.

Since Reverend Johnson's book got published in 1921, the tide has changed and virtually all modern discussions about Oduduwa center on the idea that "he" was a man and a foreigner of some sort to Ile-Ife. This idea may have its own appeal to modern sensibilities, but it does not seem to be supported in the older documentation. "Yoruba"--if we take that to mean the people who point to Ile-Ife as their cultural homeland and who speak the related dialects of the same language--did start with Oduduwa, since the oldest depictions we have access to suggest that Oduduwa was a mythological Earth mother who gave birth to this culture. These are just my thoughts though--I like to hear other informed perspectives.

Thank you for a very detailed response.

So before I start, let me state that what I will produce below is based on my analysis of books written by eminent Yoruba historians and philosophers such as Akinjogbin, Wande Abimbola, Babatunde Lawal, books from non Yoruba such as William Bascom, John Peel, etc and written accounts by the Bini. I have read Samuel Johnson’s book very well and while I believe it is the most authentic and complete source of Yoruba history, I don’t buy his version of Yoruba origins. I don’t because it is based on the version as narrated by Sultan Bello to Hugh Clapperton which also feeds into migration of Oduduwa from the Middle East.

Yoruba origins has two parts – First, a cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with obatala creating man (American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy); Second, A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating obatala. Yoruba mythology is no different to Roman or Greek mythology. They are steeped in legend. Oduduwa being a woman, Oduduwa climbing down chains to get to earth are all Yoruba mythological tales. This view was carried orally for centuries until historians started to dig into a more realistic version of Yoruba history.

I do not believe Oduduwa was Yoruba based on written accounts by Yoruba historians such as Toyin Falola and Isola Olomola. A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and obatala. The battle between Oduduwa and Obatala is staged annually at Ife.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’

See also

‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/

This view of Oduduwa arriving at Ife is re-inforced by Ugbo history which provides that the Ugbo migrated from Ife southwards after losing Ife to Oduduwa. The story of Moremi corroborates this account as the losers resorted to guerilla tactics. I believe you are familiar with the Moremi story. So who was Oduduwa? Where was he really from? I do not believe the Dierk Lange or Sultan Bello accounts because there are far too many inconsistencies in those accounts. The most plausible account to me is the Bini account because 1) It is recorded 2) Why would an established kingdom such as the Bini kingdom accept a complete stranger’s great grandson as king? Oranyan son became king without Oyo conquering Bini.

Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Oral and written history (Yoruba and Bini) confirms this. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife. The Ijebu believe they are originally from Sudan. Being that early civilization started around the Sudan-Nile-Ethiopia corridor before all human sub-groups migrated to different parts of the globe, I am favourably disposed to the Ijebu migration account. And I believe if the Ijebu account is true, then other Yoruba groups also migrated from the Sudan.

This is just my view but I am always open to more knowledge if verifiable.