k2039: Holyvirgin you are wrong:
Biblically, Mary was a dirty, rotten, vile, sinneR—just like you and me, and everyone else.

where is it in the bible?

The only sinless Person to ever walk this earth was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15)
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

i cant find the word 'only' in the pasage you quoted.

Mary was a sinner and needed a Savior just like everyone else. In fact, Mary called Jesus “God my Saviour” in Luke 1:47. Jesus is the precious Savior! Luke 2:11, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.”

ofcourse my friend Jesus the son of mary saved mary. The point of contention is: 'when was she saved?' my bible lets me know that she was save even before the birth of christ, wow! Glory!

PREMISE FOR MY ASSUMPTION

There are seven distinct ages(dispensation) throughout the entire gamut of Human history. They start and end in paradise.Human history begins with Paradise Lost(Eden); it ends with Paradise Restored(Heaven).
The seven ages are:
1. The Age of Innocence
2. The Age of Conscience
3. The Age of Human Government
4. The Age of Promise
5. The Mosaic Law
6. The Dispensation of Grace
7. The Millennial Reign of Christ and the Redeemed.
I dont have the time to explain everything,but I will explain the ones relevant to our discussion.

i love the way you listed it.

In the dispensation of law, God gave detailed instructions about how to live, how to structure society, and how to live justly and righteously as a nation. The people said this was good; they could implement these laws and create an upright society. They said in Exodus 19:8 , “All the Lord has spoken we will do.”
At Mount Sinai, the Israelites encamped, and Moses went up to the mountain to hear the Word of the Lord. For them, that Word is the law. This is not just the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God on tablets of stone, but the 613 moral and ceremonial laws contained inthe books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

very correct.

The Dispensation of Grace is what we sometimes call the churchage. It is highly relevant to us, because we live in this age. For the first five ages, we can only look back in history to see how God worked in the past. But in this age,we can see how God is working now. The sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross introduced a dispensation of unmerited favor, called grace. Instead of requiring man to live righteously by keeping the law,the righteousness of Another, is imputed to undeserving men and women.

again beautiful.

Perhaps the most pertinent scripture for this age is where Paul said: By grace we are saved through faith and not ourworks. Ephesians 2:8-9 .

Mary was born during the dispensation of Law,which means the basis for her justification,will be her obedient to the mosiac law.

here comes the stuff. My bible lets me know that God made an exception, grace was granted to mary before the birth of christ. Can you see that in luke? That God gave grace to someone in the mosaic despensation?

“And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, whichwas so named ofthe angel before he was conceived in thewomb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him tothe Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male thatopeneth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:21-24)

oh no! Dont tell me you are ignorant of scripture in this respect, what was done in luke 2:21 is commanded in lev 12:2-8. Read the passage carefully when you give birth you will be unclean for 7 day just exactly as u were unclean during menstruation, i ask u is menstruation a sin? Why is it that the offering for menstruation is d same as that for birth? Because the jews believe that touching blood makes you unclean, that is why the priest didnt help the injured man in the parable of the good samaritan, because to touch blood make you unclean in the mosiac law. Verse 8 of lev12 shows us the effect of the sin offering it says "and the priest shall make atonement for her and she shall be clean" it didnt say she shall be forgiven of her sins, it says she shall be clean, the 'sin offering' in this passage is not to offer atonement for sins, it was for atonement 4 uncleaniness. It was to make her clean not 4 sins.
Read your bible.

Ubenedictus: .
is anybody contesting the holiness of Jesus?

I delibrately wrote that there,because I know some athiest and dumb fellows may likely ask about the holiness of Christ

Ubenedictus:
the scriptures showed that she possesed a plentiful of grace before the birth of christ. How do you explain that uh?

What is Grace?
Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor.
She possesing a plentiful of Grace is the reason why she was the most qualified for the incubation of Christ.
After all you and I also posses plentiful grace(Heb4:16,2Pet3:17-18)

I would have loved to continue this discussion but it is about time for mass. I've gat to prepare. GOD willing i would post my explanation this night or 2morow

Ubenedictus: where is it in the bible?

Ofcourse that's not in the bible,I deduced that from Isa64:6(lol)

Ubenedictus: i cant find the word 'only' in the pasage you quoted

I seriously know you just trying to pull my leg there.Can you just tell me one sinless person aside from Jesus(come up with a name)

Ubenedictus: ofcourse my friend Jesus the son of mary saved mary. The point of contention is: 'when was she saved?' my bible lets me know that she was save even before the birth of christ, wow! Glory!

You know she died in the dispensation of Grace,so she definitely had to meet the requirement for that dispensation to be declared righteous.Besides she believed im Jesus as a saviour,that's enough for her to be save (Luke 1:47. Jesus is the precious Savior! Luke 2:11, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.”)
Besides she was in the upper room.
Act 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Ubenedictus: my bible lets me know that she was save even before the birth of christ, wow! Glory!

Do you mind referring me to the verse

Ubenedictus: I would have loved to continue this discussion but it is about time for mass. I've gat to prepare. GOD willing i would post my explanation this night or 2morow

Have a wonderful time in church,seriously am also enjoying the conversation(I guess because we both implementing one of the seven habit's of highly effective leader.We both understand each other "seek first to understand,before you are understood)

Ubenedictus:
here comes the stuff. My bible lets me know that God made an exception, grace was granted to mary before the birth of christ. Can you see that in luke? That God gave grace to someone in the mosaic despensation?

Gen8:9 Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord
Exodus33:13 Moses also found grace in God's sight
Judges6:17 Gideon found grace in God's sight also
My point all this people found grace before the arrival of Jesus.So Mary being granted grace before Christ's arrival aint really a big deal.

holyvirgin:
ask 4 wisdom 4 clearer understandin of d word lady dn't just go quotin d scriptures

So you think you have wisdom to celebrate the death/birthday of the mother of Jesus? you are proud by over ratting Mary abi? May yours eyes be open one day. You have to come out from the dark.


46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Does this interprets itself?

plappville:

So you think you have wisdom to celebrate the death/birthday of the mother of Jesus? you are proud by over ratting Mary abi? May yours eyes be open one day. You have to come out from the dark.


46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Does this interprets itself?

I agree with you,it's just so obvious

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:50
Paraphrasing that verse,mum you incubating me in your womb is not enough reason to call me your son,you have to do my father's will to be considered my mother

When a woman came to Jesus and attempted to exalt Mary, look how the Lord responded:
"... a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28
Jesus announces that those who hear and obey the Word of God are blessed above Mary. Perhaps the Lord inserted these verses for those today who choose to ignore the Word of God so they can follow church traditions.

Ubenedictus:
oh no! Dont tell me you are ignorant of scripture in this respect, what was done in luke 2:21 is commanded in lev 12:2-8. Read the passage carefully when you give birth you will be unclean for 7 day just exactly as u were unclean during menstruation, i ask u is menstruation a sin? Why is it that the offering for menstruation is d same as that for birth? Because the jews believe that touching blood makes you unclean, that is why the priest didnt help the injured man in the parable of the good samaritan, because to touch blood make you unclean in the mosiac law. Verse 8 of lev12 shows us the effect of the sin offering it says "and the priest shall make atonement for her and she shall be clean" it didnt say she shall be forgiven of her sins, it says she shall be clean, the 'sin offering' in this passage is not to offer atonement for sins, it was for atonement 4 uncleaniness. It was to make her clean not 4 sins.
Read your bible.

Of course, being ceremonially unclean is not equivalent to being sinful. The laws here are going to apply to everyone.

Good point about Mary’s sin offering.Your reply would be that she offered the sin offering out of humility and to avoid scandal and to fulfill all righteousness, (Mt. 3) just as her Divine Son was baptized in the Jordan by John. John’s baptism was for repentance and yet we both agree Jesus did not need to be baptized b/c He did not need to repent of any sin. And yet He submitted to baptism. And Mary offered the sin offering according to the Law. Both fulfilled all righteousness in humility.

Ubenedictus:

Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth. But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law. In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’sgrace.
If Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!
The simple truth is just that if she achieved that,then we can as well conclude that Jesus wasted a lot of blood on the cross.If one person could achieve righteousness under the law then anybody should be able to,and their wont be a need for Jesus dying on the cross.
But looking at Luke1:47
“My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.”NO SINLESS PERSON NEEDS A SAVIOR.

Doubtless she was one of the noblest ladies ever to grace this planet; nevertheless, she was not without sin

I REST MY CASE

^^^ Nice one there bro; couldn't have explained better!

seriallink: ^^^ Nice one there bro; couldn't have explained better!

Thank's,this are just stuff's that are obvious in the scriptures.
The main problem I have with catholic's is the Papal infallibility(petrine supremacy of the pope, and his authority to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the Roman Catholic Church).

UNTIL WHEN THE POPE INFALLIBILITY IS REVOKED THEIR IS GOING TO BE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE RC DOCTRINE,BECAUSE WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT EVEN IF THE POPE IS WRONG,YOU CANT AGREE THAT HE IS WRONG(HE IS INFALLIBLE)
BUT I CAN CONFIDENTLY SAY THAT THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY IS HOAX AND BALDERDASH


AM SORRY CATHOLIC FOLK'S,BUT THAT IS THE TRUTH

Ubenedictus: it is a write up, catholic celebrate universally 3 birthdays, the birth of the lord and savior Jesus christ and the 2 people God used in his mission, john the baptist his foreruner who told d world "behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" and the virgin mary who God chose to be the mother of my savior, she accepted God's will for her in humble obedience when she said "be it done to me according to your words". Sept 8 is d day catholics, estern catholics and some orthodox christains celebrate the birth of mary.
Peace

Jesus said that “among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”(Mary mother of Jesus inclusive).He was definitely refering to the old testament, Because Jesus also was born of woman and yet we both agree He is the greatest of all.
So, if anyone is to be put on a pedestal, why have the Catholics chosen Mary instead of the greater John the Baptist?
Because she is the mother of Jesus

I mean no disrespect to Mary or John the Baptist. But Christians should merely give them the same honour and respect they give to any Christian. Only Jesus is to be exalted above all

I belong to the generation that call Mary blessed, she bore Jesus the saviour of the world and the ancient of days made it so,he ordained it right from the beginning. He,the eternal Father already gave her that honor by bestowing her that privilege amongst all humans. She deserves that honor and I love her deeply

Indire: I belong to the generation that call Mary blessed, she bore Jesus the saviour of the world and the ancient of days made it so,he ordained it right from the beginning. He,the eternal Father already gave her that honor by bestowing her that privilege amongst all humans. She deserves that honor and I love her deeply

For the record not only mary was blessed
Deut 7:14
Judg5:24
Psalm89:15
Psalm1:1

k2039:
Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth. But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law. In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’sgrace.
If Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!
The simple truth is just that if she achieved that,then we can as well conclude that Jesus wasted a lot of blood on the cross.If one person could achieve righteousness under the law then anybody should be able to,and their wont be a need for Jesus dying on the cross.
But looking at Luke1:47
“My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.”NO SINLESS PERSON NEEDS A SAVIOR.

Doubtless she was one of the noblest ladies ever to grace this planet; nevertheless, she was not without sin

I REST MY CASE

great post!!

k2039:
What is Grace?
Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor.
She possesing a plentiful of Grace is the reason why she was the most qualified for the incubation of Christ.
After all you and I also posses plentiful grace(Heb4:16,2Pet3:17-18)

yeah, im quite happy you see that, no body in the mosaic dispensation was said to posses a plentitude of grace, they found favour or grace with God, but no one in that dispensation possesed a plentitude of grace.
Mary didnt do anything to merit that plentitude of grace but God gave her that plentitude of grace because she would become the mother of christ. Do we agree on this?
Peace

k2039: Ofcourse that's not in the bible,I deduced that from Isa64:6(lol)

i remember i explained the use of generalisation in the bible.

I seriously know you just trying to pull my leg there.Can you just tell me one sinless person aside from Jesus(come up with a name)

many of the early xtians even luther, were very clear, they didnt associate mary with sin.

You know she died in the dispensation of Grace,so she definitely had to meet the requirement for that dispensation to be declared righteous.Besides she believed im Jesus as a saviour,that's enough for her to be save (Luke 1:47. Jesus is the precious Savior! Luke 2:11, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.”)
Besides she was in the upper room.
Act 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

it is very easy for me to agree to this, the question is 'when was she saved?'

k2039: Do you mind referring me to the verse

apart from the fact that she is decleared plentiful in grace, i bring forward luke1:47 "my spirit rejoice in God my saviour" wow! Under the law there was no salvation, so how manage mary is talking about he saviour? Take for instance that i fell into a pit, if nobody has pull me up then i cant call anybody my saviour, if someone pull me up i would say 'thank you u for saving me'. Do you understand? I cant call God my saviour unless he had saved me, the very fact that mary call God her saviour before the birth of christ is a proof that she was saved even before she gave birth, that goes on to explain why the angel declears that she already possesed a plentitude of grace. Do you get me?
Peace

k2039:
Have a wonderful time in church,seriously am also enjoying the conversation(I guess because we both implementing one of the seven habit's of highly effective leader.We both understand each other "seek first to understand,before you are understood)

do you know that the part you wrote in quotation marks is a prayer for catholics. It the prayer of st francis 'lord make me an instrument of your peace where there is hatred let me sow love, where there is doubt faith, where the is darknes light, where despair hope, where there is injury pardon, o divine master grant that i may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love, for it is in giving that we recieve, in pardoning that we are pardoned and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen'. You know it as one of the seven habit of an effective leader, i know it as a prayer.
Peace

k2039:
Gen8:9 Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord
Exodus33:13 Moses also found grace in God's sight
Judges6:17 Gideon found grace in God's sight also
My point all this people found grace before the arrival of Jesus.So Mary being granted grace before Christ's arrival aint really a big deal.

yeah, all those people found grace(favor) b4 God. But none of the above was said to posses or to have recieve that plentitude of grace, that stuff on bgan in n new dispensation. Infact the word used to describe mary's grace 'kecharitomene' only appears once in the bible.

plappville:

So you think you have wisdom to celebrate the death/birthday of the mother of Jesus? you are proud by over ratting Mary abi? May yours eyes be open one day. You have to come out from the dark.


46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Does this interprets itself?

aha!, apart from the fact that your tune sounds insultive, the passage you quoted didnt say we shouldnt celebrate he birth, im even surprise you quoted it. We also celebrate the death of john d baptist, peter, paul, james, john, philip, jame, jude...justin, etc. Do you also have a problem with that or you are only concern about mary?
Peace

plappville:

So you think you have wisdom to celebrate the death/birthday of the mother of Jesus? you are proud by over ratting Mary abi? May yours eyes be open one day. You have to come out from the dark.


46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46-50

Does this interprets itself?

aha!, apart from the fact that your tune sounds insultive, the passage you quoted didnt say we shouldnt celebrate he birth, im even surprise you quoted it. We also celebrate the death of john d baptist, peter, paul, james, john, philip, jame, jude...justin, etc. Do you also have a problem with that or you are only concern about mary?
Peace

italo:

Jesus said those who believe in him will live forever.

Do you believe that?

eternal life is different from living forever. In eternal life, you are a spirit not wit a physical body. Now, if mary can here me, that means my grand mother (of blessed memory) can also hear me. Why dont i pray to her? By praying to mary, you are implying that she is omnipresent. Because so many people pray to her at once. And this my brother is a very big sin.

Ubenedictus: yeah, im quite happy you see that, no body in the mosaic dispensation was said to posses a plentitude of grace, they found favour or grace with God, but no one in that dispensation possesed a plentitude of grace.
Mary didnt do anything to merit that plentitude of grace but God gave her that plentitude of grace because she would become the mother of christ. Do we agree on this?
Peace

It is PLENITUDE plentitude of Grace(just realized the mistake).


Luke 1:28;And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

[b]Hail [/b]The angel greeted Mary with a common Aramaic word for "hello" or possibly `rejoice."

highly favored Gabriel next calls Mary "favored one" (kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charitoo). Charitoo, "to bestow grace/favor" is the verb form of the noun charis, "grace, favor." The passive form ensures that Gabriel is addressing Mary as the recipient of God's grace or favor, rather than the giver of it. The Latin Vulgate translation of this word "full of grace" (gratia plena) is unfortunate and inaccurate as it has led to exaggerated claims for Mary: that because she was full of grace, she now is able to dispense grace to sinners. There is no support in all of Scripture for such a claim.

Lord is with you It carries the meaning that the "The Lord is on your side to help you." This statement does not refer to the incarnate Lord within her womb, because the incarnation had not yet occurred.

blessed are you among women. esteeming it to be the highest honor among mothers to be the mother of the Messiah

YES I AGREE THAT BEFORE THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE SHE RECEIVED PLENITUDE OF GRACE COMPARED TO THOSE BEFORE HER.


Looking at John1:16;And of his fullness have all we received, and grace upon grace.([b]And of his fullness - Of the plenitude of his grace and mercy)[/b]
The meaning is,simply that we have received through him "abundance" of grace or favor.
WE ARE UNDER AS MUCH GRACE AS THE MOTHER OF JESUS,SHE WASNT JUST THE ONLY ONE WHO RECEIVE PLENITUDE OF GRACE,WE ALSO DID RECEIVE PLENITUDE OF GRACE

Ubenedictus: i remember i explained the use of generalisation in the bible.

I still maintain that if there was a sinless person(Mar Inclusive) on earth Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross.
John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
I guess if Mary had been around she probably must have cast the first stone.lol (but how am I sure she wasnt even around).

Ubenedictus: many of the early xtians even luther, were very clear, they didnt associate mary with sin.

That they didnt associate associate sin with her,didnt mean that she was sinless.(and dont ask me for the sin she committed lol)

Ubenedictus: it is very easy for me to agree to this, the question is 'when was she saved?'

Is it wrong for her to have called Jesus savior,afterall it was explicitly prophesied that Jesus was going to save his people from his sin.She knew the savior was around,so calling him a savior before she got saved shouldn't be a issue.

REQUIREMENT TO GET SAVE

ST. PAUL's
Romans 10:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that[b] God raised him from the dead, [/b]you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

POPE SAINT PETER 1ST
Acts 2:36-40 (New International Version)
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

ACCORDING TO POPE PETER AND SAINT PAUL a,THE FOLLOWING HAD TO BE FULFILLED TO BE SAVE,SO SHE GOT SAVE ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS PETER AND THAT WAS AFTER THE DEATH OF JESUS(because believing Jesus died is also a requirement)

Ubenedictus: apart from the fact that she is decleared plentiful in grace, i bring forward luke1:47 "my spirit rejoice in God my saviour" wow! Under the law there was no salvation, so how manage mary is talking about he saviour? Take for instance that i fell into a pit, if nobody has pull me up then i cant call anybody my saviour, if someone pull me up i would say 'thank you u for saving me'. Do you understand? I cant call God my saviour unless he had saved me, the very fact that mary call God her saviour before the birth of christ is a proof that she was saved even before she gave birth, that goes on to explain why the angel declears that she already possesed a plentitude of grace. Do you get me?
Peace

Luke 2:11 - "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord."
Matthew 1:21 - "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

How do you explain those verses,it's obvious that the savior was born,the fact that He hasn't fulfilled the requirement to be called a savior is not enough reason not to call him a savior.
It had been prophesied long before that time,so It was clear that He was going to be the savior,that's my explanation for mary calling Him savior.

After the elction in nov 4 2008,Obama wasnt inaugurated until Jan 20 2009,are you saying calling Obama president immediately the results was announce is wrong,considering the fact that Bush was still in office(I know you will tell me the right word should be President-elect).But it is still not wrong to call Obama president,it was glaring he will be after the election(the requirement had been met,it was just a matter of time(jan 20))

Ubenedictus: yeah, all those people found grace(favor) b4 God. But none of the above was said to posses or to have recieve that PLENITUDE plentitude of grace, that stuff on bgan in n new dispensation. Infact the word used to describe mary's grace 'kecharitomene' only appears once in the bible.

I agree

Ubenedictus: do you know that the part you wrote in quotation marks is a prayer for catholics. It the prayer of st francis 'lord make me an instrument of your peace where there is hatred let me sow love, where there is doubt faith, where the is darknes light, where despair hope, where there is injury pardon, o divine master grant that i may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love, for it is in giving that we recieve, in pardoning that we are pardoned and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen'. You know it as one of the seven habit of an effective leader, i know it as a prayer.
Peace

LOL