U think we should nt honour mary?the only woman that gave birth as a virgin,the one dat found favour in the sight of God to deliver jesus,u can fear nd honour ur eartly parents bt the one that persuaded jesus to do the first miracle u dnt want to honour

Uncanny Genius: It's your mother that is a prostitute. Why should I worship a mere idol? Catholicism is a religion founded by a pagan.

nama... Watch wat u say nxt tym about d mother of God.

k2039:
can you show me that explicitly

rev5:8 say that the elders in heaven and offered d lamb "the prayers of d saint". How more explicit can that get?

show me that explicitly



show me explicitly where it implied praying to them is permitted

the psalmist requested that the angels join him in a prayer of praise. If it is wrong to ask the those in heaven to join in prayer, why does ps103:20-21 address d angels to give praise?
Peace

k2039:



that's an assumption


I was born and bred under the Anglican communion,similar to the RC.
Was baptised at infancy.
As far as am concern the baptism was without my consent,afterall I was still small.

the bible say that d promise of salvation is for u and ur children, so i see no reason why they cant b baptised

ijawkid: From this post I now understand from the catholics that Jesus died for every other persons sin except that of mary since mayb she fell from heaven and was immaculate.....

u have started spining lies.

And I have been asking on this page when mary was born ubenidictus and Co. Hasn't provided any answer for me.....

I'm waiting!!!!!!!!.....

Ubenidictus how far na??....how u dey??

i have answer all ur question. Ur problem is that u are very into d 'day' thing. U wont celebrate d birth of christ becos ur sole interest is in d day and not in d significance of christ birth. Your insistence on d 'day' makes me remember d pharisees.

U just have no point

ijawkid:

So from ur whole write up I want u to quote just 1 scripture where d apostles and early christians were urged to bow down to mary when she was alive and also to her image after she died........please show us...

im sure ur parents u bow and greet ur parent u arent perfect but u wont do that to the person Jesus honored wow! I thought been a xtian is abt doing what christ did? Jesus d fulfilment of d law fully fulfiled d law by honoring or rather glorifying (kaboda) his mother, but u cant do d same.

Not 1 scripture will support the reverence and attention mary recieves from catholics except from the adoption of pagan customs......

"from henceforth all ages will cal me blessed"

U guys have made mary perfect and immaculate by all means possible so that u can worship and pray through her...

actually d bible did, wen d word kecharitomene was used to adress mary.

Yahweh is watching!!!!......Jesus too is watching!!!!!!!!..........

What annoys me most is when u guys bow down to the image of an imperfect woman...and u guys turn around to pick scriptures that are nt even connected to what is being discussed......

d israelite also bow down b4 d ark and d image of a cherubim and by bible lets me know dat God wasnt angry about that. My friend images have been used in worship places since d old testament.

Ubenedictus: the bible say that d promise of salvation is for u and ur children, so i see no reason why they cant b baptised

Without repentance there is no reason for baptism. An infant has no understanding of repentance.
So he doesnt have the capapbility to make the decision and fulfill his baptism.

I guess you will tell,that's why they have a godfather or godmother to lead them into salvation as soon as they dem it fit(kid gets maatured)
The order has change,repentance before baptism not baptism before repentance.
Still at that you cant change someone who isn't willing or desiring to change.

SALVATION IS A DECISION EVERYONE HAS TO MAKE FOR HIMSELF,the parents could loead them to finding Christ,I still beleive it's the kid's decision that matters

Ubenedictus: rev5:8 say that the elders in heaven and offered d lamb "the prayers of d saint". How more explicit can that get?

you have still not shown me who the saints are,a precise identity.

Ubenedictus: the psalmist requested that the angels join him in a prayer of praise. If it is wrong to ask the those in heaven to join in prayer, why does ps103:20-21 address d angels to give praise?
Peace

Everthing created by God are meant to worship and praise God,afterall that's what the angels do in heaven.
Prayer of praise is to worship God,it is different from intercession.







Either if at all you pray to saint and you show me the basis in Revelation,you should be able to prove their identity,so you know who you are praying through.

As far as am concern am a saint and my prayer could be what is refered to as prayers that are in the "golden bowls full of incense"

holyvirgin:
nama... Watch wat u say nxt tym about d mother of God.

"Mother" of God? Who born am? To hell with Catholicism, "holy" virgin my foot.

k2039:
Without repentance there is no reason for baptism. An infant has no understanding of repentance.
So he doesnt have the capapbility to make the decision and fulfill his baptism.

I guess you will tell,that's why they have a godfather or godmother to lead them into salvation as soon as they dem it fit(kid gets maatured)
The order has change,repentance before baptism not baptism before repentance.
Still at that you cant change someone who isn't willing or desiring to change.

SALVATION IS A DECISION EVERYONE HAS TO MAKE FOR HIMSELF,the parents could loead them to finding Christ,I still beleive it's the kid's decision that matters

actually my friend, children have nothing to repent from, so your argument flies out of the window. Jesus said 'dont prevent d children from coming to me, for such as these is the kingdom of heaven' and peter goes on to confirm the d promise of salvation also blong to d children. To be saved is not abt d will of man, it is of God.
Peace

Are u freking kidding me? What is d argument u are making? U got to be joking. It seems u are simply looking for anything to say.

k2039:

you have still not shown me who the saints are,a precise identity.

sorry my friend d bible didnt say u must know d saints identity before he can interceed for u. I could ask all d angels and saints to join me in prayers. What is d significance of d question? It doesnt make sense.

Everthing created by God are meant to worship and praise God,afterall that's what the angels do in heaven.
Prayer of praise is to worship God,it is different from intercession.

what a joke... To ask for intercession is to ask a fellow broda whether on earth or in heaven to prayer for u or join u in prayers. On earth we usually tell our fellow xtian 'he me/join me in thanking God for xxxx', it means u are asking intercession in a prayer of thanksgiving. The psalm i reference clearly shows d psalmist asking d angel to join him in a prayer of praise, whether u like it or not that is intercession.

Either if at all you pray to saint and you show me the basis in Revelation,you should be able to prove their identity,

this is really stupid,

so you know who you are praying through.

when d psalmist asked d angel to join in a prayer of praise he didnt call their names.

As far as am concern am a saint and my prayer could be what is refered to as prayers that are in the "golden bowls full of incense"

beautiful, and yet d elders in heaven interceed for d saints on earth. The question isnt whether or not u are a saint, the question is whether or not those in heaven can interceed for those on earth. I have show that truly those in heaven can and do interceed for the saints on earth, do u have a problem with that?

k2039:

I will assume I didnt see this.(very close)

That's true

i have explained that the presence of perfect grace in mary, proves d catholic teaching on her state as immaculate, i hope u have no problem with that?

Ubenedictus: U just have no point im sure ur parents u bow and greet ur parent u arent perfect but u wont do that to the person Jesus honored wow! I thought been a xtian is abt doing what christ did? Jesus d fulfilment of d law fully fulfiled d law by honoring or rather glorifying (kaboda) his mother, but u cant do d same.

"from henceforth all ages will cal me blessed"

actually d bible did, wen d word kecharitomene was used to adress mary.

d israelite also bow down b4 d ark and d image of a cherubim and by bible lets me know dat God wasnt angry about that. My friend images have been used in worship places since d old testament.

Do I make an image of my parents and bow down to them and also say or recite words of veneration??

Ubenidictus??......

U guys are worshipping mary.....

U can't run away from this glaring fact......

Honouring mary can never mean d same with making an image of mary and bowing down to it.....

Its absolute idolatry.......

Idolatry all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!..........

Did d apostles bow down to mary wen she was alive let alone make an image of her and bowing down to it??

Answer these questions and see how spurious bowing down to mary's image is......

""Holy mary mother of God,please pray for us""... I've forgotten how u guys say it.....

U guys are playing with the hell fire u teach....

Ubenedictus: actually my friend, children have nothing to repent from, so your argument flies out of the window. Jesus said 'dont prevent d children from coming to me, for such as these is the kingdom of heaven' and peter goes on to confirm the d promise of salvation also blong to d children. To be saved is not abt d will of man, it is of God.
Peace

what happens to original sin

Ubenedictus: i have explained that the presence of perfect grace in mary, proves d catholic teaching on her state as immaculate, i hope u have no problem with that?

She had KECHARITOMENE,definately that is true

Mary being immaculate am not convince,and that she has KECHARITOMENE doesnt mean she can dispense Grace to others

Ubenedictus: Are u freking kidding me? What is d argument u are making? U got to be joking. It seems u are simply looking for anything to say. sorry my friend d bible didnt say u must know d saints identity before he can interceed for u. I could ask all d angels and saints to join me in prayers. What is d significance of d question? It doesnt make sense.

The saints that revelation was talking about could be the saints in heaven or on earth.When I mean identity I dont mean their name,I meant their status(heaven or earth)
If you are going to pray through a saint,then you should be able to tell me the identity,whether they are saints on earth or in heaven

Ubenedictus:
what a joke... To ask for intercession is to ask a fellow broda whether on earth or in heaven to prayer for u or join u in prayers. On earth we usually tell our fellow xtian 'he me/join me in thanking God for xxxx', it means u are asking intercession in a prayer of thanksgiving. The psalm i reference clearly shows d psalmist asking d angel to join him in a prayer of praise, whether u like it or not that is intercession.

I agree with everything except the one in red (on what basis did you make that assumption)

Ubenedictus: this is really stupid, when d psalmist asked d angel to join in a prayer of praise he didnt call their names.

I never asked for the names of the saints

Ubenedictus: beautiful, and yet d elders in heaven interceed for d saints on earth. The question isnt whether or not u are a saint, the question is whether or not those in heaven can interceed for those on earth. I have show that truly those in heaven can and do interceed for the saints on earth, do u have a problem with that?

I have a problem with everything.
You need to go through my previous post again to understand my point.

I reposted it below

[size=14pt]@Ubenedictus

[/size]
REVELATION 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev. 5:8-14
...Verse 8 says speaks of the "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. Verse 11 speaks of those around the throne of God and verse 12 says that they were saying "Worthy is the Lamb..." Verse 13 mentions every created thing in heaven and earth saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

I have no problem with those in heaven hearing what is said on earth.


Regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated,Therefore, if it cannot be demonstrated conclusively who they are, then it cannot be demonstrated conclusively whose prayers they are, either.


Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.


In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.



Just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience. Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to receive prayers, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted. All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise.

ijawkid:


Do I make an image of my parents and bow down to them and also say or recite words of veneration??

it seems u dont have a picture of ur mum, it seem u have also neva spoke a word of praise for ur mum, veneration is simply a form of respect.

Ubenidictus??......

ijawkid pls spell my username well.

U guys are worshipping mary.....

hahaha, u just said we venerate her, now u say we worship her, do u worship ur mum?

U can't run away from this glaring fact......

hahaha, u mean i cant help but notice that u are trying to be silly? U are trying to tell me the amount of respect i give mary, that is imposible and silly because i am d only person wu can truly say the level of respect i give her. If u cant accept my word then that is ur problem.

Honouring mary can never mean d same with making an image of mary and bowing down to it.....

so u dont have a picture of ur mum right? And holding ur mums pic close 2 ur heart or kissing it is idolatry in ur dictionary?

Its absolute idolatry.......

Idolatry all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!..........

hahaha, u are seriously blabbing, do u mind speaking coherently?

Did d apostles bow down to mary wen she was alive let alone make an image of her and bowing down to it??

hahaha,

Answer these questions and see how spurious bowing down to mary's image is......

i saw all ur question, i can only see ur misunderstanding. Did Jesus honor his mum? Did he honor her like a true son and bowed to her? Jesus d lawgiver truly fulfiled the law and glorified (kaboda) his mum.

""Holy mary mother of God,please pray for us""... I've forgotten how u guys say it.....

now and at d hour of our death" is that worship in ur dictionary?

U guys are playing with the hell fire u teach....

tell me u are joking.

k2039:

what happens to original sin

original sin is imputed, u didnt commit it, it was reckoned to u. U cant repent from something u didnt commit. I thought u understood d nature of original sin. Baptism wipes it away.
Peace

k2039:

She had KECHARITOMENE,definately that is true

Mary being immaculate am not convince,and that she has KECHARITOMENE doesnt mean she can dispense Grace to others

are u kidding me? Did i say anything about dispensing grace?? Or are u just trying to spin the discussion to a tangent?? Someone has a complete non depletable grace, what other proof do u want? She has a grace all other xtian dont have. Grace that cant fall, that doesnt need to be renewed, to remain alway in a state of grace completely exclude her from a state of sin. If one wu studies the scripture cant understand that simple fact, wow!!!. It seems u are only interested in denying.

k2039:

The saints that revelation was talking about could be the saints in heaven or on earth.When I mean identity I dont mean their name,I meant their status(heaven or earth)

are u joking? A student of scripture is asking me what d bible usually means wen talking about d saints. U gat to b kidding me.

If you are going to pray through a saint,then you should be able to tell me the identity,whether they are saints on earth or in heaven

i point has been that both can interceed, rev show those in heaven interceed, paul asks those on earth to pray 4 him, which are u contending?

I agree with everything except the one in red (on what basis did you make that assumption)

on d basis of rev 8, those in heaven can interceed.

I never asked for the names of the saints



I have a problem with everything.
You need to go through my previous post again to understand my point.
I reposted it below

sorry if i misunderstood u, but it truly seem u are trying to frustrate me.

k2039: [size=14pt]@Ubenedictus

[/size]
REVELATION 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

i see ur point, im not a place where i can make exergesis(im watching a match). U will see it soon.

i just saw this and i remember i owe u an explanation. I wish to ask u a question. Why will the saints in heaven need intercession? They see God so y will day need intercession? Besides take a look at scriptures and see how d word saint is used, act9:13, act9:32, rm16:2, eph4:12, eph5:3, act26:16, phi4:21, even see revelations, rev13:7-8, rev14:12 etc. They are talking about the saints on earth, besides the saints in heaven have no need for intercession. These all point to the fact that intercession was offer for those on earth.
Peace

Mother Mary,I will always seek for your intercession in all my problems.

Funny thread! *Smh*

My catholic brothers and sisters, repent, becsuse you are perishing fast, mary is not to be honoured, as a matter of fact, jesus came through mary not because of her but through joseph because he joseph was from the tribe of judah, it was through joseph, read your bible in mathew 1, and jesus had other brothers n sisters luke 18:19-20, mark 6:3,
Jesus had brothers, mary ceased to be a virgin after giving birth to jesus, n the brothers, even if mary gave birth tojesus like you believed, she didn't do surgery, she travailed in pains n had him,
As a matter of fact, the mary mother of jesud is not aware that you worship her because she doesn't deserve the worship, Jesus says in john 14:6, that He is the way, the truth n life no one comes to the father except through him, you worship idol when you bow to an effigy, image of what you call mary n Jesus, you are jyst like a heathen that bows to wood, God comnanded not to bow to any image made by man, marys status was made by a man, even if truly mary is to be worshied, it contradicts the word. Of God about idolatry, roman catholics are idol worshipers, if you study the bible, you would have known the origin of roman catholic, go and read www.divinerevelations.info. You will read from nuns that are in hell and the ones who left roman catholic, how the exposed the dirty secret of ronan catholics, go and do research and stop being fooled by men,
Jesus christ still remains the only way, as lng as you remain there bowing down to mary, n other dead people you call saints, my dear hell fire is your hone, n for your info thete is nothing like purgatory, read your bible, no where it mentioned thst mary should be worshiped or honouref it is pure heresy n mens doctrine,

jefips: My catholic brothers and sisters, repent, becsuse you are perishing fast, mary is not to be honoured, as a matter of fact, jesus came through mary not because of her but through joseph because he joseph was from the tribe of judah, it was through joseph, read your bible in mathew 1, and jesus had other brothers n sisters luke 18:19-20, mark 6:3,
Jesus had brothers, mary ceased to be a virgin after giving birth to jesus, n the brothers, even if mary gave birth tojesus like you believed, she didn't do surgery, she travailed in pains n had him,
As a matter of fact, the mary mother of jesud is not aware that you worship her because she doesn't deserve the worship, Jesus says in john 14:6, that He is the way, the truth n life no one comes to the father except through him, you worship idol when you bow to an effigy, image of what you call mary n Jesus, you are jyst like a heathen that bows to wood, God comnanded not to bow to any image made by man, marys status was made by a man, even if truly mary is to be worshied, it contradicts the word. Of God about idolatry, roman catholics are idol worshipers, if you study the bible, you would have known the origin of roman catholic, go and read www.divinerevelations.info. You will read from nuns that are in hell and the ones who left roman catholic, how the exposed the dirty secret of ronan catholics, go and do research and stop being fooled by men,
Jesus christ still remains the only way, as lng as you remain there bowing down to mary, n other dead people you call saints, my dear hell fire is your hone, n for your info thete is nothing like purgatory, read your bible, no where it mentioned thst mary should be worshiped or honouref it is pure heresy n mens doctrine,

do yo really understand english?