k2039:
I still maintain that if there was a sinless person(Mar Inclusive) on earth Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross.
John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
I guess if Mary had been around she probably must have cast the first stone.lol (but how am I sure she wasnt even around)
[/b]

Bélla3: eternal life is different from living forever. In eternal life, you are a spirit not wit a physical body. Now, if mary can here me, that means my grand mother (of blessed memory) can also hear me. Why dont i pray to her? By praying to mary, you are implying that she is omnipresent. Because so many people pray to her at once. And this my brother is a very big sin.

Ubenedictus: and my bible says "offer prayer, supplication, intercession for..." are you against offering intercession? And even rm15:30, col4:3, 1thes5:25 paul ask the living christains to pray on his behalf, if the intercession of the living goes through christ the im sure that the intercession of those who have passed away goes through christ as my bible testifys
rev5:8 "and when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell down before the lamb, each holden a harp, and a bowls full of incense which was the prayers of the saints.
Rev8:4 "and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of an angel before God
my dear those two passage show that the angels and saints in heaven offer our prayers to God (intercession) and rev 5:8 tell me that the prayer of the saints offered by the elders was offered to the lamb, so my friend the prayer still went throught christ.
So it seem you dont have a point.
Peace

naslinks: The Bible doesn't specify Mary by name. The book of Hebrews and Revelation have instances where the dead saints are said to be intercessors for the living. Because of the angel's address to Mary as "most blessed" when announcing Jesus' upcoming birth, We Catholics regards her as the highest saint, and thus ask her to intercede most often. We do not pray to her as if she were a goddess but rather request her intercessesion to God and presence in our times of need.
Those of you who are confused should seek the grace of God for wisdom and understanding of the scripture.

italo:

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Dear Mother, pls pray for this your daughter Plappville. That she may see the things that we see and know what we know, especially about you. Help her to allign herself back to your son's church and through it, come to understand his word in its fullness. Dear Jesus, please have mercy on all the who show denigration for Yourself and your Mother out of ignorance and hard-heartedness. Soften their hearts and illuminate their minds to understand who you are and the relationship between yourself and your mother.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Bélla3: eternal life is different from living forever. In eternal life, you are a spirit not wit a physical body. Now, if mary can here me, that means my grand mother (of blessed memory) can also hear me. Why dont i pray to her? By praying to mary, you are implying that she is omnipresent. Because so many people pray to her at once. And this my brother is a very big sin.

Ubenedictus: i dont celebrate the day, i celebrate his birth. im celebrating that my savior is born, im telling the world that im not a jew who is still expecting the messiah, nor a gentile who doesn't know the mesiah, the wall of partition has been broken in christ Jesus and im very happy that he was born. Imagine the marvel God unleashed on the world thru the birth of christ. The began a new creation, why cant a jehova witness celebrate that? Why?

her birth is celebrated on sept 8. ha! Jehova witness, i dont celebrate d day, i celebrate a reality. A simple reality that christ was born.

Ubenedictus: i dont celebrate the day, i celebrate his birth. im celebrating that my savior is born, im telling the world that im not a jew who is still expecting the messiah, nor a gentile who doesn't know the mesiah, the wall of partition has been broken in christ Jesus and im very happy that he was born. Imagine the marvel God unleashed on the world thru the birth of christ. The began a new creation, why cant a jehova witness celebrate that? Why?

her birth is celebrated on sept 8. ha! Jehova witness, i dont celebrate d day, i celebrate a reality. A simple reality that christ was born.

Uncanny Genius: "Hail" fucking Mary. I pity these bloody Catholics that worship the idol.

naslinks: It is a curious fact that some seem to have a major problem with the Virgin Mary. It is a problem that goes far beyond theological reason and debate. In some quarters there seems to be a major antipathy, almost hatred, directed at one of the key figures in the story of redemption. In fact a few protestant apologists write of the Mother of the Redeemer almost as if she were the enemy of God. How can this unhealthy state of affairs have come about?

Perhaps it has something to do with the misogynistic tendencies that were evident in many of the Reformers, although most actually maintained Marian doctrines that would surprise their modern-day followers. There is also a great deal of ignorance among modern-day protestants as to the Scriptural and other ancient support for most of the Marian doctrines. It is the fundamentalist move away from Mary that has been the recent aberation. Yet even many Protestant Christians who are not so extreme still believe that Catholic and Orthodox doctrines on the Virgin Mary are unscriptural and are inventions of the Medieval Church, being unknown to the early Christians.
To find out, we must examine the doctrines about the Virgin Mary which Evangelical Protestants claim to be unscriptural

1. Mary is the Mother of God

2. Mary is the Mother of All Christians

3. Mary's Bodily Assumption into Heaven

4. Mary Queen of Heaven

5.The Immaculate Conception

6. Mediatrix

7. Ever Virgin
1. Mary is the Mother of God

This is quite simply explained. The main puzzle is why any Christian should object to this title. All Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and also IS God, being the 2nd Person of the Trinity, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is also the son of Mary. Now many Protestants are quite prepared to say "Mary, Mother of Jesus," but balk at saying "Mary, Mother of God." Why?

There is probably an element of cultural conditioning here. Giving Mary such a title seems too grand to many protestants. For centuries most protestants have tried to ignore Mary, and have avoided all talk and discussion of her - except perhaps to condemn Catholic "excesses". But this is a serious matter. To call Mary the "Mother of Jesus" and yet refuse to call her "Mother of God" is to diminish Jesus as well as Mary, for it is a denial that Jesus is truly or fully God.

It was this sort of thinking that led to the formal definition of the title Mother of God at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD. Patriarch Nestorius had preached that Mary was not Mother of God, being only the mother of Jesus's physical body, which was then indwelt by God the Word. This was condemned as Heresy, since the Gospels tell us that the Word did not unite with man, but was made man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.." (John 1.14). This is a crucial difference. Jesus was not two persons: the Son of God, and the Son of Mary, but one person, the Son of God and Mary. If this were not so, his death could not have saved us.

2. Mary is the Mother of All Christians

An evangelical Christian once retorted indignantly to me "Mary isn't my Mother." To which I was forced to respond. "Then what you're really saying is that Jesus is not your Brother." And in truth it is as simple as that. If we as Christians are brothers of Jesus, then, as with Jesus, God is our Father and Mary is our Mother.

The bible also teaches, that all Christians become part of the body of Christ. Again this re-emphasises the fact that as Christians become one with Jesus they share with Him, the Fatherhood of God and also, the motherhood of Mary.

The New Testament has two further passages which confirm Mary's motherhood of Christians:

John 19.25: Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on the disciple took her into his home.

This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John "looking after" Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.

Revelation 12.17: Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This passage shows the Dragon (Satan), making war on the Woman (Mary)'s offspring, following the birth of Jesus. (see Queen of Heaven for more on Revelation 12) These offspring, clearly represent the community of Christians, who are "the rest of" Mary's children.
To be continue

naslinks: Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine. 

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3). 

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ. 

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ. 

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God. 

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do. 

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God. 

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord. 

naslinks:  3. Mary's Bodily Assumption into Heaven

I find it strange that Protestant Evangelicals never seem to wonder where Mary is now, or what her role might be. If they do chance to wonder, they generally keep it to themselves. Raise too many of the wrong topics, and questions may start being asked about whether you really are "one of the group". Therefore it is quite common for Protestant evangelicals who are quite certain that Uncle Fred is in heaven, wearing his kingly crown, or that they themselves are heaven bound, to question Mary's presence there.

So, let's scotch that one straight away. If the Virgin Mary isn't in heaven, then there's very little chance that anyone else will ever get there. Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we hope to become in Christ, She already is. . Out of the millions of "decisions" made for Christ, Mary's was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses.

4. Mary Queen of Heaven

Another doctrine many Protestants object to is that Mary is the Queen of Heaven. So what Biblical justification is there for this?

Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Here is a Bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of twelve stars. A crown plainly denotes Queenship. How much more clearly could Mary's honour be illustrated?

5. The Immaculate Conception

Quite simply this doctrine states that the Virgin Mary was preserved free of Original Sin from the moment of her conception, and so was made sinless.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DOCTRINE?

It has to do with the Holiness of God. God cannot tolerate Sin. Mary as the God-bearer in Jesus had to be sinless in order to be in such close proximity to God Himself. The whole Bible teaches that God's presence demands and imparts holiness. (Ex 3:5; Deut 23:14; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Jn 3:5-6; Rev 21:27). The Jewish high priest entered the Holy of Holies only once a year, under threat of death if God's instructions were violated (Lev 16:2-4,13). The Ark itself was so holy that only a few were allowed to touch it (Num 4:15; 2 Sam 6:2-7). Thus, Mary, due to her physical and spiritual relationship with God, necessarily had to be granted the grace of sinlessness.

In other words, since Jesus took flesh in and from Mary's body, and also obtained His Human Nature from Her, she had to be perfectly sinless. The only question that then arises is when and how Mary was made sinless.

Protestants are quite willing to admit that we are cleansed of our sins at baptism. Yet Mary could not have been baptised at the time of the Annunciation, or even Jesus's birth. For this reason her sinlessness had to come in a special and unique manner. To be pure and free from all sin as God required, she had not only to be free of sin at one point in time, (as one is immediately after baptism,) but to remain sinless throughout her life.

JUST A MINUTE. DIDN'T MARY HERSELF ADMIT THAT SHE NEEDED A SAVIOUR? HOW COULD SHE BE SINLESS?

Mary did indeed agree she needed a Saviour:

Luke 1.46: And Mary said "My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour,"

But this presents no difficulty. We have seen that Mary needed to be perfectly sinless in order to bear Jesus. Did she attain that sinlessness through her own human efforts? No. She was redeemed by her son - as was all the rest of humanity. She needed God's Grace. And in order to be, and remain, sinless she needed that grace before her own birth.

We can see that in Luke 1.46 Mary speaks of God as her Saviour, but she speaks in the present tense. She does not say "God, who will be my Saviour." She has already been redeemed.

If we look at one of the Old Testament passages that Mary bases her words upon, we see this more clearly.

Isaiah 51.10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall exult in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

As virtually every educated 1st Century Jew would have recognised, in echoing this passage, Mary clearly considered that God had already clothed her with the garments of salvation, and covered her with the robe of righteousness. Her sin had already been wiped away.

This is supported by the angel's greeting to Mary:

Luke 1.28: The angel went to her and said, "Hail, you who are full of grace (Literally: you who have been and remain filled with Grace). The Lord is with you."

Grace in the New Testament is seen as the antidote to sin. (Rom 3:24, 5:15-17, 6:14 11:6) So being filled with Grace strongly implies sinlessness. And since Mary required the grace of redemption before her own birth, it is quite fitting that this happened at her conception. Is this a problem for God? No. Jesus is the perfect Redeemer. Therefore he must have redeemed one person perfectly. That person is Mary, having been redeemed by Jesus from Original Sin from the moment of her own conception.
To be continue

k2039:
I agree with you,it's just so obvious

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:50
Paraphrasing that verse,mum you incubating me in your womb is not enough reason to call me your son,you have to do my father's will to be considered my mother

k2039: When a woman came to Jesus and attempted to exalt Mary, look how the Lord responded:
"... a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." Luke 11:27-28
Jesus announces that those who hear and obey the Word of God are blessed above Mary.

Perhaps the Lord inserted these verses for those today who choose to ignore the Word of God so they can follow church traditions.

Ubenedictus: what are you contending? Did mary not do the will of the father? Answer me yes or no.

Ubenedictus: what a comment? Where is the word "above" in the scripture passage you quoted? Have you started to make your own bible?

Ubenedictus: my bible teaches my to hold fast to tradition. Can you see the verse in your bible?

k2039:
Mary was born under law and she observed the Law of Moses with regard to pregnancy and childbirth. But the Bible says that no one can become righteous in God’s sight by observing the law.

In fact, the purpose of the law is to increase sin in man and show man his utter sinfulness, hopelessness and, hence, need for God’sgrace.

If Mary was born without sin and never sinned, it would mean that she perfectly obeyed the entire Law of Moses (the 10 Commandments and more than 360 ceremonial laws) in thought, word and deed, all of the time, and thus, achieved righteousness by the law!
The simple truth is just that if she achieved that,then we can as well conclude that Jesus wasted a lot of blood on the cross.If one person could achieve righteousness under the law then anybody should be able to,and their wont be a need for Jesus dying on the cross.

But looking at Luke1:47
“My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47). Observe that she referred to the Lord as “my Savior”—not merely “a Savior,” or “the Savior.”NO SINLESS PERSON NEEDS A SAVIOR.

Doubtless she was one of the noblest ladies ever to grace this planet; nevertheless, she was not without sin

I REST MY CASE

k2039:
Thank's,this are just stuff's that are obvious in the scriptures.
The main problem I have with catholic's is the Papal infallibility(petrine supremacy of the pope, and his authority to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the Roman Catholic Church).

UNTIL WHEN THE POPE INFALLIBILITY IS REVOKED THEIR IS GOING TO BE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE RC DOCTRINE,BECAUSE WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT EVEN IF THE POPE IS WRONG,YOU CANT AGREE THAT HE IS WRONG(HE IS INFALLIBLE)
BUT I CAN CONFIDENTLY SAY THAT THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY IS HOAX AND BALDERDASH


AM SORRY CATHOLIC FOLK'S,BUT THAT IS THE TRUTH

Ubenedictus:

it seems you have passed judgement? Is there stil a reason to continue d discussion?

Ubenedictus: it seem again that you are passing judgement, we were talking abt the celebration of d birth of mary, d discussion has turned to that on immaculate conception and sinlessnes, you want to add papal infalliability to it. That will divert the thread, 3 topics in one thread. Ha! Na wa for u.

Ubenedictus: my bible teaches my to hold fast to tradition. Can you see the verse in your bible?

k2039:
Jesus said that “among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”(Mary mother of Jesus inclusive).

He was definitely refering to the old testament, Because Jesus also was born of woman and yet we both agree He is the greatest of all.

So, if anyone is to be put on a pedestal, why have the Catholics chosen Mary instead of the greater John the Baptist?
Because she is the mother of Jesus

I mean no disrespect to Mary or John the Baptist. But Christians should merely give them the same honour and respect they give to any Christian. Only Jesus is to be exalted above all

Bélla3: eternal life is different from living forever. In eternal life, you are a spirit not wit a physical body. Now, if mary can here me, that means my grand mother (of blessed memory) can also hear me. Why dont i pray to her?

By praying to mary, you are implying that she is omnipresent. Because so many people pray to her at once. And this my brother is a very big sin.

k2039:
It is PLENITUDE plentitude of Grace(just realized the mistake).

[b]Hail [/b]The angel greeted Mary with a common Aramaic word for "hello" or possibly `rejoice."

highly favored Gabriel next calls Mary "favored one" (kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charitoo). Charitoo, "to bestow grace/favor" is the verb form of the noun charis, "grace, favor." The passive form ensures that Gabriel is addressing Mary as the recipient of God's grace or favor, rather than the giver of it.

The Latin Vulgate translation of this word "full of grace" (gratia plena) is unfortunate and inaccurate as it has led to exaggerated claims for Mary: that because she was full of grace, she now is able to dispense grace to sinners. There is no support in all of Scripture for such a claim.

Lord is with you blessed are you among women. esteeming it to be the highest honor among mothers to be the mother of the Messiah

YES I AGREE THAT BEFORE THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE SHE RECEIVED PLENITUDE OF GRACE COMPARED TO THOSE BEFORE HER.

Looking at John1:16;And of his fullness have all we received, and grace upon grace.([b]And of his fullness - Of the plenitude of his grace and mercy)[/b]
The meaning is,simply that we have received through him "abundance" of grace or favor.
WE ARE UNDER AS MUCH GRACE AS THE MOTHER OF JESUS,SHE WASNT JUST THE ONLY ONE WHO RECEIVE PLENITUDE OF GRACE,WE ALSO DID RECEIVE PLENITUDE OF GRACE

k2039:

I REST MY CASE

k2039:
I still maintain that if there was a sinless person(Mar Inclusive) on earth Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross.
John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

I guess if Mary had been around she probably must have cast the first stone.lol (but how am I sure she wasnt even around).

That they didnt associate associate sin with her,didnt mean that she was sinless.(and dont ask me for the sin she committed lol)

Is it wrong for her to have called Jesus savior,afterall it was explicitly prophesied that Jesus was going to save his people from his sin.She knew the savior was around,so calling him a savior before she got saved shouldn't be a issue.

REQUIREMENT TO GET SAVE

ST. PAUL's
Romans 10:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that[b] God raised him from the dead, [/b]you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

POPE SAINT PETER 1ST
Acts 2:36-40 (New International Version)
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

ACCORDING TO POPE PETER AND SAINT PAUL a,THE FOLLOWING HAD TO BE FULFILLED TO BE SAVE,SO SHE GOT SAVE ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS PETER AND THAT WAS AFTER THE DEATH OF JESUS(because believing Jesus died is also a requirement)

seriallink:

On point my broda.

Noah, Job, Abraham, Moses & others were righteous men; they loved Yaweh with all their hearts but that doesn't mean they were sinless! We all inherited sin from the first man (Adam).

k2039:
Rev. 5:8-14
...Verse 8 says speaks of the "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. Verse 11 speaks of those around the throne of God and verse 12 says that they were saying "Worthy is the Lamb..." Verse 13 mentions every created thing in heaven and earth saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
I have no problem with those in heaven hearing what is said on earth.Many Christians deny that this is possible, but it seems to be clearly taught here.

Regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be demonstrated conclusively who they are, then it cannot be demonstrated conclusively whose prayers they are, either.

Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.

In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.
...[b]Just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints.

If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them.

Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience.

Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to receive prayers, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted. All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise.
[/b]

ijawkid:

But u celebrate Jesus's birth on 25th december...why don't u celebrate it on a diff day and month other than december 25th??

Why??

If the day u celebrate it don't matter ,why must it be on december....??why must it be on a pagan date??whyyyyyyyyyy??

Why shuld I celebrate the birth of Jesus christ??did Jesus himself celebrate it??

Why shuld I celebrate paganism??

U expect me to be running around with xmas trees(paganism) and fantasizing about santa claus(also pagan inclined)??...
Take time o....lol