efficiencie:

Bro Dapo, as far as you are concerned God is a hoax, another cheap scheme to cheat you...so no matter how compelling my argument is to you it would sound like the mindless rambling of an presumptuous fool...so bro Dapo, be WISE and let folks like me remain a FOOL...

Ok calling u stupid was off the hook,my bad.....sorry for saying that.....But it wasn't unsolicited........ u implied my family were all sinners and I reacted .....

God is not a hoax But the Christian God is from all evidences I have seen and read So far.....But Am a liberal and open minded person,I could be wrong..... the God of the Bible could be real.....and u could be saving a soul from destruction...... plsss I need an answer to that question......Am still open minded about the existence of God....
Thanks.....

qstar:

Guy, bye bye. I thought god had better employees

oh pardon God's magnanimity! He employs dumb folks like me and makes a sage out of us...He's not looking for self made sages like you that attribute your scholastic excellence to sheer hardwork devoid of any divine input...Pardon us QSTAR, it takes a FOOL to work for a FOOL and if my God is a FOOL, then i'm glad to be a FOOL on his way to becoming the GREATEST FOOL THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN! !!!

Dapo777:

Ok calling u stupid was off the hook,my bad.....sorry for saying that.....But it wasn't unsolicited........ u implied my family were all sinners and I reacted .....

God is not a hoax But the Christian God is from all evidences I have seen and read So far.....But Am a liberal and open minded person,I could be wrong..... the God of the Bible could be real.....and u could be saving a soul from destruction...... plsss I need an answer to that question......Am still open minded about the existence of God....
Thanks.....

Dapo if yu want a Christian's position one life's questions then i'l give you one and though i'm not stating this as a sage or prophet and you are not in any way bound to accept my position as true...Truth is in the heart of the thinker, i'l let you find it for yourself!

^^^

Guy, forgive me nah. Nobody is contesting the ambassador of fools with you. Have it all bruv. One love

efficiencie:

well sir you must understand that proofs are subject to the 'field' within which you operate.

In plane geometry, the sum of angles in a triangle equals 180 but in geodesy the sum may exceed 180!

In a real field, √-1 does not exist but in a complex field
√-1=i

if a spherical ball falls through a 2-d world a transition from a dot to a full circle and later to dot would be observed but in a 3-d world the entity remains constant

Bro what's my point, you may ask! God is an entity yond our much narrow dimension and hence you can't validly use the scientific method, and it's sequence of refutations and corroborations according to Karl Popper, to prove or disprove the existence of God!

That's why belief exist! So no one can say i have a valid scientific proof of who God is and hence which religion is true, we only have our beliefs!

So hold on to yours while i hold on to mine...in the end, we'll know who's right and who's wrong!

What's all this bullcrap?? I asked for evidence of your God as it relates with his personality and stories surrounding him not maths

This is a clear indication that christianity is bullshiit for the mentality lazy

efficiencie:

Dapo if yu want a Christian's position one life's questions then i'l give you one and though i'm not stating this as a sage or prophet and you are not in any way bound to accept my position as true...Truth is in the heart of the thinker, i'l let you find it for yourself!

Ok So that means u will give me an answer to the question. Am listening.
Thanks

macof:

What's all this bullcrap?? I asked for evidence of your God as it relates with his personality and stories surrounding him not maths

This is a clear indication that christianity is bullshiit for the mentality lazy

It seems to me sir that you are more mentally lazy than i am...If i have been able to put forward line after line of deductive reasoning and still you cannot get my line of thought then i doubt if Aristotle, Betrand, Lakatos or Popper can be of any help if they were on this thread...No hard feelings sir, do not be offended. we are all just stating our different positions and positions are always in relation to another. We may not agree but that should not make us denigrate ourselves or our respective philosophical or religious stance...one love bro!

qstar: ^^^

Guy, forgive me nah. Nobody is contesting the ambassador of fools with you. Have it all bruv. One love

that's great...that means I have no competition. It is even expected that i will have very little competition. The book of 'FOOLS' states in Matthew 7: 14 that I will have very little competition if i decide to walk the way of 'FOOLS'...So as you have admonished I'm gonna have it all ...One love bro, It's a pleasure trading words!

efficiencie:

It seems to me sir that you are more mentally lazy than i am...If i have been able to put forward line after line of deductive reasoning and still you cannot get my line of thought then i doubt if Aristotle, Betrand, Lakatos or Popper can be of any help if they were on this thread...No hard feelings sir, do not be offended. we are all just stating our different positions and positions are always in relation to another. We may not agree but that should not make us denigrate ourselves or our respective philosophical or religious stance...one love bro!

Guy answer my question or simply run away.
You are disgracing ur religion with your stupid comments

efficiencie:

well sir you must understand that proofs are subject to the 'field' within which you operate.

In plane geometry, the sum of angles in a triangle equals 180 but in geodesy the sum may exceed 180!

In a real field, √-1 does not exist but in a complex field
√-1=i

if a spherical ball falls through a 2-d world a transition from a dot to a full circle and later to dot would be observed but in a 3-d world the entity remains constant

Bro what's my point, you may ask! God is an entity yond our much narrow dimension and hence you can't validly use the scientific method, and it's sequence of refutations and corroborations according to Karl Popper, to prove or disprove the existence of God!

That's why belief exist! So no one can say i have a valid scientific proof of who God is and hence which religion is true, we only have our beliefs!

So hold on to yours while i hold on to mine...in the end, we'll know who's right and who's wrong!

Sir, truths are universal, verifiable and coherent! Any hypothesis that aspires to become truth must obey this fundamental principle. Yes, you have the right to have opinions but you do not have the right to call them truths unless they have been empirically verified. Since god exist only outside the realm of reason, why are you trying so hard to validate him through reason? Dots and spheres are real, distinct entities and redistribution of matter is a truth unlike god who doesnt! I think it is mischievous to compare what exist and is subject to empirical laws to another that doesnt exist and is not subject to laws we know about.
I think the issue here is not about your belief rather it is the non-truth and intrinsic contradictions in it.

Dapo777:

The question is summed up in this quote 'God is not a hoax but the Christian God is from all evidences I have seen and read so far'

From your quote, I can correctly conclude that you accept the proposition that there is GOD but you do not accept the Christian depiction of God based on the evidences that you have seen and read so far.

So if i am to recast the your quote as a question it would likely be:
If God exists and there are many depictions of God given by many religions then which of these is true and if the true God is the Christian God, what are the evidences that supports it

Well Mr. Dapo, first i'd like to state that evidences are evidences. None of us on this tread has ever had the opportunity to look at the earth from outer space but we believe and accept most of the evidence given to us concerning the earth by scientists, leaving out the prospects that those evidences could be contrived or manipulated. However while we may have some folks on this thread that has been to outer space, I am definitely certain that no one of this thread has been to the fringes of our galaxy to observe the path of the earth in relation to our moon, our star (the sun) and the black hole at the centre of our galaxy. As i speak may thinkers still come up with conjectures concerning the movement of planetary bodies.

On the whole, even science has a certain degree of belief. In the light of the aforementioned I would like to state that the best I can do is present the evidence that the Bible states concerning God. These evidences may not correlate with the evidences that other religions may have found and I would not suggest that you accept the doctrines of Christianity based on the evidences that I provide rather I would suggest that you find it yourself even as you quest for the truth.

In one of your quotes you stated that I my comment suggested that all your family members are sinners. I never said or implied that. What I meant was that: the reason you all went to church was because you believed there was God and that that God must be the God of the Christians. If you all were sinners you would not have bothered going to church in the first place. There are sinners and there are sinners. All mankind are potential sinners but some live perpetually in sin and do not have any intention of changing while some others recognize their potential to sin and seek to avoid sinning. I believe you and your family fall into the latter category and that was why you all went to church.

You asked why the Jesus lamented at Gethsemane and on the cross despite the fact that it was the will of his Father that he should die on the cross? According to the scriptures Jesus is the son of Jehova (John 3: 16) and by virtue of this he is God even as Jehova is God (ofcourse the child of a goat is a goat, the child of a sheep is a sheep, the child of a man is mankind and the child of God is expected to be God). This meant that Jesus has the same abilities as his Father. Jesus could have insulated his flesh from the pain, he could have found a way to circumvent the torture but he had to pass through all these as a price for the sin of the world because without the willful offering of innocent blood there is no atonement for sin (Hebrews 9: 22). This was also prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 53:2-5...but who would see all this suffering and not be tempted to reject it. Bible says Jesus was touched with the same temptations even as we are daily (Hebrews 4: 15) and it is expected that even as a man, though he was God, he would be tempted to reject going through all that suffering for a people who are most likely to ultimately reject him...but to prove that he is one with the Father, he prayed that the will of God be done suggesting that though the pangs of pain and torture were already tormenting him he subjected his will to that of his Father (Matthew 26: 39).

On the cross Jesus cried '...father, father why have you forsaken me...' and you may ask, if Jesus was one with his Father why would his father forsake him at such a trying moment. This is the mystery of sin. Many even in the Christendom only see sin as an action that contradicts the dos and don'ts of scripture but even deeper than that sin is like a knife that cuts the Father (Jehova). Everytime a man sins, he literally assaults Jehova (Isaiah 59: 1-2). Sins as ephemeral as taking a piece of meat from the pot without permission, has the same effect on God as robbing a man at gun point! Jehova's holiness is so unthinkably unimaginable that even his angels who are structurally purer than mankind are charged of folly by Jehova (Job 4: 17-18). So it is expected that if God hated sin that much and all the sins of the world was placed on Jesus, that is all the sins of those who would avail the transaction Jesus made on the cross were assigned to Jesus as though Jesus was the person who committed all our sins, then with all that load of sin on Jesus, the Father (Jehova) would not behold him even though he is his son. The only thing that would pacify Jehova would be that Jesus must suffer the same suffering a sinner with all that sin must suffer. First Jesus must suffer abandonment, because God abandoned all that sinned and never repented. Second he must suffer unimaginable pain and mortal damage which those who sinned in the past suffered and lastly he must die. Isaiah 53: 2-5 is, to me, a perfect description of all I have said. So you see he was actually forsaken by God as prophesied by Isaiah but as a man, who felt the pain of torture and rejection like any man may feel, he lamented!

Dapo, of all the religions of the world, I doubt there is any that records the death of a person for another in the manner that the Bible portrays of Jesus Christ. If there are, I would like to know. This makes me conclude that if the death of someone was involved in Christianity and his death was for no reason other than for the atonement of sins of the world, then he worth knowing. Evidences (and you can verify them) of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus include: the shroud of turin , oral tradition handed down by observers of the time, documentations by scholars such as Josephus...etc

Dapo I am not asking that you take my word for it. Seek the truth yourself and find it for yourself, that way you will be willing to hold on to it even till the death.

Hmmmm

Sombrerogalaxy:

Sir, truths are universal, verifiable and coherent! Any hypothesis that aspires to become truth must obey this fundamental principle. Yes, you have the right to have opinions but you do not have the right to call them truths unless they have been empirically verified. Since god exist only outside the realm of reason, why are you trying so hard to validate him through reason? Dots and spheres are real, distinct entities and redistribution of matter is a truth unlike god who doesnt! I think it is mischievous to compare what exist and is subject to empirical laws to another that doesnt exist and is not subject to laws we know about.
I think the issue here is not about your belief rather it is the non-truth and intrinsic contradictions in it.

If you have observed my comments all through you will see that I have never made an attempt to validate the existence of God and/or the existence of the Christian God as the one true God using reason or empirics. As a matter of fact, i have stated repeatedly much to the dismay of others that Christianity and all other religions and philosophical positions on the existence of God are called 'faiths' because they are anchored on the act of believing. If by reason and empirics I can establish the existence of God then we would not have 'faiths' and we would not have 'religions'. So sir, I am not and have not and do not intend to use physical entities, principles and methods of science to prove the existence of God. If you are a logician, you can tell all through in my arguments that I have not done that at all.

In addition, I beg to disagree with your assertion that: 'truths are universal, verifiable and coherent!'. Truths are not universal and not always verifiable or coherent. Karl Popper made us understand that science is a series of refutations and corroborations. If so then what we call truth today remains truth until it is refuted and replaced with a new truth. A good example is the definition of an atom by Dalton, Dalton considered the atom as indivisible and it was at the time accepted as truth but when Rutherford bombarded thin foils with radiation from a radioactive element he discovered that atoms could be split into neutrons, protons and electrons thus invalidating what Dalton must have referred to as truth.

Another good example for the ardent thinker. If the earth rotates 360 degrees in a 24 hour period, as scientists would have us believe then in a second the earth would have moved (360/(24.60.60))=(1/240) degrees. If the radius of the earth as the scientists would have us believe is 6371km approximately then in one second the earth would have moved: (1/240)(1/360)(2)(3.1416)(6371)=0.4633km approximately and this is equivalent to 463.3m. Thus in one second a stationary point on the earth would have moved 463.3meters! Wow, if that were true then if an object is tossed vertically upwards to a height of 10 meters at a mild initial velocity of 10m/s then according to the laws of motion it would take 6 seconds approximately for the object to fall back to the ground and by this time the earth would have moved 2.8km approximately and that distance is far enough for the object thrown upwards not to get back anywhere within 100m radius of the same spot where it was thrown initially! However empirically this is not true, you can try it yourself and check out the metrics.

So sir to a very large extent what we call truth is relative in time and space. However truth, the way you define it cannot be gleaned from religions no matter how compelling and this is because, truth the way you see it as a proposition that has stood the test of repeated testing and experimentation, cannot be consistent with normative thought.

Bro in summary, faiths are faiths, science is science. Faith is accepted without proof but based on belief. Scientific laws are testable and accepted upon rigorous testing. Truth is relative and oftentimes a positive as well as a normative concept.

macof:

Guy answer my question or simply run away.
You are disgracing ur religion with your stupid comments

Don't take it personal bro...we are just stating our positions. We do not need to denigrate one another. We disagree and that is a common phenomenon about life. We do not have to agree but we can yet tolerate one another.

In the words of Aristotle, 'it is the mark of an educated mind, to entertain a thought without accepting it'...

one love bro!

The christian god is as fake as any of the other gods! A black dragon is no more (or less) a mythical figure than a white dragon or any other type of dragon. The fact that you find the concept of god in different cultures doesn't validate it. A proposition does not become truth because its popular or because it's been around for a long time or because its culled from some ancient scripts!
If you pick up a book to read and you find obvious misinformation on the first page, the second page and more as you flip through, do you take the book and the author serious If on the first page of a simple arithmetic text, you find 1+1=17 and the author continuously builds on that premise, wouldn't it be wise to stop reading it and do something more meaningful with your life? Would you cite such an author as an authority in your work? Would you defer to such an author when you are hard pressed in life?
A god that would take credit for what it did not do, arrogate powers it doesn't have to itself, makes laws he would never keep and shamefully fall below the moral code of his creatures should never be believed!!! Of course, it doesn't exist in the first place.

macof: A quote from macof's comment: "you didn't address my post, how can we say jehovah exist when we can't use Evidence or logic to prove it's existence?"

Dear Macof, this would be my last argument with you concerning this, because it appears your emotions are climaxing and I cannot fathom the consequences of you getting to the peak of an emotional outburst.

In one of your comments you made the above assertion and in generally I can recast the your question as:

How can we prove the existence of an entity that defies the scientific method?

Well sir, I will proceed with my position by considering two cases in scientific discourse and these cases would be my analogue and would enable me answer your question.

On the origin of existence, science acclaims that the universe began as a singularity with infinite mass and zero volume and hence an infinite density. This state obviously would be unstable and result in a massive expansion process referred to as the Big Bang. Following this were the combined forces of gravitation and expansion which led to the creation of planetary bodies over the course of billions of years.

Now science succeeded in explaining the state of the universe a few second before the Big Bang but they were unable to tell us: what resulted in the singularity that kick started the Big Bang? Scientific reasoning on the origin of the universe is severely attacked by the Kalam argument: which posits two premises and a conclusion: the first two premises are: the universe began to exist and whatever exists must have a cause and the conclusion is that: the universe began to exist and must have a cause. Now if the universe began to exist as a singularity then what was the cause of the singularity? The inability of science to provide an answer to this question using the scientific method puts great holes in the Big Bang theory (No wonder it is still a theory).

The second case, is the law that the universe is fine tuned for existence. This means that certain barometers are set in place to ensure that the universe exists. The violation of any of these barometers would result in the non-existence of the universe as a whole. Now, now, if the universe is fine tuned for existence, the question arises, who did the fine tuning? Who or what fixed the many constants that define the universe with great degrees of accuracy? please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant to confirm this. Some went on to say that a universe generator must be responsible for the fine tuning and that this generator is capable of producing multiple universes, the next question that follows becomes: who or what built the universe generator with the capability of fine tuning multiple universes?

Now science repeatedly has been a culprit of asserting theories that often lead to questions that are testable but beyond the sphere of science and entered the realm of belief. Many scientists when asked what led to the universe would immediately exclaim THE BIG BANG but when asked the questions that ensue for that theory they tell you that they BELIEVE the theory to be true despite the fact that it leads to a state of infinite regress.

Now back to the question: How can i say Jehova exists when he defies the scientific method? I don't know how, just as scientists don't know how the singularity that led to the big bang came about...but I believe! Even as scientists believe!!

Sombrerogalaxy: The christian god is as fake as any of the other gods! A black dragon is no more (or less) a mythical figure than a white dragon or any other type of dragon. The fact that you find the concept of god in different cultures doesn't validate it. A proposition does not become truth because its popular or because it's been around for a long time or because its culled from some ancient scripts!
If you pick up a book to read and you find obvious misinformation on the first page, the second page and more as you flip through, do you take the book and the author serious If on the first page of a simple arithmetic text, you find 1+1=17 and the author continuously builds on that premise, wouldn't it be wise to stop reading it and do something more meaningful with your life? Would you cite such an author as an authority in your work? Would you defer to such an author when you are hard pressed in life?
A god that would take credit for what it did not do, arrogate powers it doesn't have to itself, makes laws he would never keep and shamefully fall below the moral code of his creatures should never be believed!!! Of course, it doesn't exist in the first place.

Oh well bro! No one has a problem with your stance...as long as it won't result in the loss of anyone's life. Like i said, in the words of Aristotle 'it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it!

^LMS

efficiencie:

Dear Macof, this would be my last argument with you concerning this, because it appears your emotions are climaxing and I cannot fathom the consequences of you getting to the peak of an emotional outburst.

In one of your comments you made the above assertion and in generally I can recast the your question as:

How can we prove the existence of an entity that defies the scientific method?

Well sir, I will proceed with my position by considering two cases in scientific discourse and these cases would be my analogue and would enable me answer your question.

On the origin of existence, science acclaims that the universe began as a singularity with infinite mass and zero volume and hence an infinite density. This state obviously would be unstable and result in a massive expansion process referred to as the Big Bang. Following this were the combined forces of gravitation and expansion which led to the creation of planetary bodies over the course of billions of years.

Now science succeeded in explaining the state of the universe a few second before the Big Bang but they were unable to tell us: what resulted in the singularity that kick started the Big Bang? Scientific reasoning on the origin of the universe is severely attacked by the Kalam argument: which posits two premises and a conclusion: the first two premises are: the universe began to exist and whatever exists must have a cause and the conclusion is that: the universe began to exist and must have a cause. Now if the universe began to exist as a singularity then what was the cause of the singularity? The inability of science to provide an answer to this question using the scientific method puts great holes in the Big Bang theory (No wonder it is still a theory).

The second case, is the law that the universe is fine tuned for existence. This means that certain barometers are set in place to ensure that the universe exists. The violation of any of these barometers would result in the non-existence of the universe as a whole. Now, now, if the universe is fine tuned for existence, the question arises, who did the fine tuning? Who or what fixed the many constants that define the universe with great degrees of accuracy? please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant to confirm this. Some went on to say that a universe generator must be responsible for the fine tuning and that this generator is capable of producing multiple universes, the next question that follows becomes: who or what built the universe generator with the capability of fine tuning multiple universes?

Now science repeatedly has been a culprit of asserting theories that often lead to questions that are testable but beyond the sphere of science and entered the realm of belief. Many scientists when asked what led to the universe would immediately exclaim THE BIG BANG but when asked the questions that ensue for that theory they tell you that they BELIEVE the theory to be true despite the fact that it leads to a state of infinite regress.

Now back to the question: How can i say Jehova exists when he defies the scientific method? I don't know how, just as scientists don't know how the singularity that led to the big bang came about...but I believe! Even as scientists believe!!

hmmm...permit me to say a word here. The fundamental difference between science and faith is that when science doesn't know, it seeks. It never gives up, science keeps asking questions and hopefully one day we'll have answers. When faith doesn't know, it simply believes! So the question I'll like to ask you is this - how do you intend to address your lack of knowledge about the existence of Jehova?

Sombrerogalaxy:

hmmm...permit me to say a word here. The fundamental difference between science and faith is that when science doesn't know, it seeks. It never gives up, science keeps asking questions and hopefully one day we'll have answers. When faith doesn't know, it simply believes! So the question I'll like to ask you is this - how do you intend to address your lack of knowledge about the existence of Jehova?

Funny sir, you said 'when science doesn't know, it seeks' If i didn't know better I'd have thought you took that right out of Matthew 7: 7...Science and scientists are not so audacious oftentimes sir. The universe generator theory i discussed earlier was science's cheap method of circumventing the question of the origin of the universe and by so doing they created even more questions.

Brother, faith as well never gives up. We keep seeking too...and the strange thing about faith is that we believe first then we see! As for what you call lack of knowledge, I also laugh a little! It is not lack of knowledge, it is the lack of belief in knowledge.

You require that I prove what I know but I require that I believe what I know. So sir I am not fit to prove the knowledge of Jehova rather i believe it and while I know that you are a stickler for proofs, i admire that but unfortunately i cannot help you and since I cannot present a proof (and i doubt anyone can if all the evidences that can be found on the internet are not sound enough) I'd advice that you adhere to your conceptualization of who God is.

I understand that it would be very hard for you to just accept my stance (even if God himself appears to you with a proof), considering that you find joy and solace in Pantheism and not Christianity.

efficiencie:

Funny sir, you said 'when science doesn't know, it seeks' If i didn't know better I'd have thought you took that right out of Matthew 7: 7...Science and scientists are not so audacious oftentimes sir. The universe generator theory i discussed earlier was science's cheap method of circumventing the question of the origin of the universe and by so doing they created even more questions.

Brother, faith as well never gives up. We keep seeking too...and the strange thing about faith is that we believe first then we see! As for what you call lack of knowledge, I also laugh a little! It is not lack of knowledge, it is the lack of belief in knowledge.

You require that I prove what I know but I require that I believe what I know. So sir I am not fit to prove the knowledge of Jehova rather i believe it and while I know that you are a stickler for proofs, i admire that but unfortunately i cannot help you and since I cannot present a proof (and i doubt anyone can if all the evidences that can be found on the internet are not sound enough) I'd advice that you adhere to your conceptualization of who God is.

I understand that it would be very hard for you to just accept my stance (even if God himself appears to you with a proof), considering that you find joy and solace in Pantheism and not Christianity.

I think I made it clear that there is no god, it does not exist! How did I suddenly become a pantheist? And I hope you oblige me on this - what do you believe about god? who/what is the god you believe?

Sombrerogalaxy:

I think I made it clear that there is no god, it does not exist! How did I suddenly become a pantheist? And I hope you oblige me on this - what do you believe about god? who/what is the god you believe?

Pardon me but were you not of the view that God exists as a manifestation of the different energies present in the universe and universe itself? If that is your view then you are a Pantheist I believe. Or oh forgive me i am mistaking you for emotional Oh forgive me, my bad.

Well i guess i have no response to your comment simply because i mistook you for another. if emotional had made the comment you just made i would have simply referred him to the comments I made in response to his.

Somberogalaxy, you are entitled to your opinion and i believe you have stated it quite precisely. Mine is and still remains that God exists and that that God is the Trinity - A Divine Family.

efficiencie:

From your quote, I can correctly conclude that you accept the proposition that there is GOD but you do not accept the Christian depiction of God based on the evidences that you have seen and read so far.

So if i am to recast the your quote as a question it would likely be:
If God exists and there are many depictions of God given by many religions then which of these is true and if the true God is the Christian God, what are the evidences that supports it

Well Mr. Dapo, first i'd like to state that evidences are evidences. None of us on this tread has ever had the opportunity to look at the earth from outer space but we believe and accept most of the evidence given to us concerning the earth by scientists, leaving out the prospects that those evidences could be contrived or manipulated. However while we may have some folks on this thread that has been to outer space, I am definitely certain that no one of this thread has been to the fringes of our galaxy to observe the path of the earth in relation to our moon, our star (the sun) and the black hole at the centre of our galaxy. As i speak may thinkers still come up with conjectures concerning the movement of planetary bodies.

On the whole, even science has a certain degree of belief. In the light of the aforementioned I would like to state that the best I can do is present the evidence that the Bible states concerning God. These evidences may not correlate with the evidences that other religions may have found and I would not suggest that you accept the doctrines of Christianity based on the evidences that I provide rather I would suggest that you find it yourself even as you quest for the truth.

In one of your quotes you stated that I my comment suggested that all your family members are sinners. I never said or implied that. What I meant was that: the reason you all went to church was because you believed there was God and that that God must be the God of the Christians. If you all were sinners you would not have bothered going to church in the first place. There are sinners and there are sinners. All mankind are potential sinners but some live perpetually in sin and do not have any intention of changing while some others recognize their potential to sin and seek to avoid sinning. I believe you and your family fall into the latter category and that was why you all went to church.

You asked why the Jesus lamented at Gethsemane and on the cross despite the fact that it was the will of his Father that he should die on the cross? According to the scriptures Jesus is the son of Jehova (John 3: 16) and by virtue of this he is God even as Jehova is God (ofcourse the child of a goat is a goat, the child of a sheep is a sheep, the child of a man is mankind and the child of God is expected to be God). This meant that Jesus has the same abilities as his Father. Jesus could have insulated his flesh from the pain, he could have found a way to circumvent the torture but he had to pass through all these as a price for the sin of the world because without the willful offering of innocent blood there is no atonement for sin (Hebrews 9: 22). This was also prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 53:2-5...but who would see all this suffering and not be tempted to reject it. Bible says Jesus was touched with the same temptations even as we are daily (Hebrews 4: 15) and it is expected that even as a man, though he was God, he would be tempted to reject going through all that suffering for a people who are most likely to ultimately reject him...but to prove that he is one with the Father, he prayed that the will of God be done suggesting that though the pangs of pain and torture were already tormenting him he subjected his will to that of his Father (Matthew 26: 39).

On the cross Jesus cried '...father, father why have you forsaken me...' and you may ask, if Jesus was one with his Father why would his father forsake him at such a trying moment. This is the mystery of sin. Many even in the Christendom only see sin as an action that contradicts the dos and don'ts of scripture but even deeper than that sin is like a knife that cuts the Father (Jehova). Everytime a man sins, he literally assaults Jehova (Isaiah 59: 1-2). Sins as ephemeral as taking a piece of meat from the pot without permission, has the same effect on God as robbing a man at gun point! Jehova's holiness is so unthinkably unimaginable that even his angels who are structurally purer than mankind are charged of folly by Jehova (Job 4: 17-18). So it is expected that if God hated sin that much and all the sins of the world was placed on Jesus, that is all the sins of those who would avail the transaction Jesus made on the cross were assigned to Jesus as though Jesus was the person who committed all our sins, then with all that load of sin on Jesus, the Father (Jehova) would not behold him even though he is his son. The only thing that would pacify Jehova would be that Jesus must suffer the same suffering a sinner with all that sin must suffer. First Jesus must suffer abandonment, because God abandoned all that sinned and never repented. Second he must suffer unimaginable pain and mortal damage which those who sinned in the past suffered and lastly he must die. Isaiah 53: 2-5 is, to me, a perfect description of all I have said. So you see he was actually forsaken by God as prophesied by Isaiah but as a man, who felt the pain of torture and rejection like any man may feel, he lamented!

Dapo, of all the religions of the world, I doubt there is any that records the death of a person for another in the manner that the Bible portrays of Jesus Christ. If there are, I would like to know. This makes me conclude that if the death of someone was involved in Christianity and his death was for no reason other than for the atonement of sins of the world, then he worth knowing. Evidences (and you can verify them) of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus include: the shroud of turin , oral tradition handed down by observers of the time, documentations by scholars such as Josephus...etc

Dapo I am not asking that you take my word for it. Seek the truth yourself and find it for yourself, that way you will be willing to hold on to it even till the death.

Hmmmmmm

Although Jesus was a man,he is God......
So he is man and God at the same time?

Dapo777:

Hmmmmmm

Although Jesus was a man,he is God......
So he is man and God at the same time?

Yes, ironically, he is man and at the same time God. He resurrected with a human body, he ate with his disciples to prove to them that he was not just a spirit, but a spirit with a fleshly robe (Mark 16: 14; John 20: 19-20).

efficiencie:

Yes, ironically, he is man and at the same time God. He resurrected with a human body, he ate with his disciples to prove to them that he was not just a spirit, but a spirit with a fleshly robe (Mark 16: 14; John 20: 19-20).

Ok ooo.
I read one of your posts here.....u seem to know much about the big bang theory,So let me ask you this,how old is the earth?
Billions of years old as scientists have proved or
6000 years old as the Bible let us believe?

Reiyvinn: Hey NairaLanders,

Put aside the bigoted fanaticism for once and lets reason a little.

All my life I've been a staunch believer in the existence of God and followed him without question. And I've even defended his works as best as I possibly can. So don't come on here thinking that I just woke up one morning with all these dilemma running through my head, ok?

I am not bigoted. I am not loose either. I just can't afford to have my reasoning toyed with (against my will) to the pleasure of someone sitting on a Chair (Throne or whatever) up there in some place they call Heaven.

Now, please don't take it personal. I am not willing to allow myself to get so loose and immoral just because I feel or think there is no one to punish me.

I have come to dig out the truth. I've come to do it with you. So please, just throw off every sentiment and think straight.

Who knows? I may just find what I've been searching for...... The truth.

So if you're with me, I'd like us to look into these little questions carefully.

THE ALL-KNOWING AND ALL-LOVING GOD:

It is a general thesis that God, the supreme Being, knows all things (past, present and future) and even sees an event before it happens. It's also a general belief that God loves everyone equally [since he created us all]. With that in mind, we can tell that he already knows what our future will be before bringing us into existence.

QUESTION: Why then does Satan, Sin, Hell, Destruction, e.t.c exist? People say it was satan but God created Satan, didn't he?

God said his plan for his creation is GOOD, thus, is it right that I KNOW something will corrupt, contaminate, harm or destroy my GOOD plan and then go ahead to create it?

Who killed the people at Nyanya? The Bomb or the People who MADE and PLANTED the bomb??

Since God created Satan. He (the BUILDER) is responsible for the problems we are facing not satan (the BOMB).

Well, maybe he did NOT know that things will turn out this way. Maybe he isn't ALL-KNOWING afterall

Or, maybe he knew but went on with it anyway, maybe he isn't ALL-LOVING afterall

===> this is really worrisome!

Now, things turned out bad and we (the VICTIMS) got caught in Satan's trap (the EXPLOSION) and are continually trying to find our way to survival even though we blame ourselves (the VICTIMS) instead of the Creator (the BUILDER of the BOMB) for bringing such havoc upon us WHEREAS we know that the very fruit of the forbidden tree and the serpent upon it were planted by God himself!!

Please don't tell me that God was "testing us," you only test (or experiment) what you are not sure of. I don't see an ALL-KNOWING God wanting to have his works tested when he ought to have had foreknowledge of what he has created!!!

It was easy to say "Let there be light" and "there was light" in the Scriptures but it is seeming so difficult to say "Let there be peace" and "there was peace" in reality.

Definitely, if God truly exists, he is the cause of all we're going through.

SO MANY STUFFS TO BELIEVE:

I wonder what actually made we Nigerians to give in to the preachings of those white outsiders. I wonder how right thinking persons viewed just one true God and one true religion out of the numerous thousands out there. In Maths, the probability of picking the right one would be approximately 1/100,000. Christians, Muslims, Polytheists, Hindus (ignoring the numerous denominations under them) all claim to have the right God(s) and religion or way of life.

Why would God make it so difficult for people to locate him even while knowing that a lot of these poor people will willingly devout all their lives to him.

Think about a person like Mother Theresa spending an eternity in hell or facing destruction just because she was a catholic and didn't believe in 99,999/100,000 of the other gods besides hers.

Or Mahatma Gandhi believing in a league of Gods but spending an eternity in hell or facing destruction for not knowing the true God or practising the true religion?

What image does that paint for a God who hides himself from his creation and punishes them for not finding him

===> I know quite well that I'll be insulted or ignored because I may be hurting someone's feelings by the above writing but an honest-hearted person will see that I am not here to debate beliefs or criticize anyone but to.......

......yes to QUESTION God (that's if he exists) and since NairaLand is filled with his soldiers, maybe some of you may help him answer me

Visit www.jw.org and click Bible teachings. Please stay awhile

Thanks.

Please pay a visit at www.jw.org

Dapo777:

Ok ooo.
I read one of your posts here.....u seem to know much about the big bang theory,So let me ask you this,how old is the earth?
Billions of years old as scientists have proved or
6000 years old as the Bible let us believe?

Scientists are not being sincere with the true age of the earth. The earth is observed to be loosing its gravitational pull progressively over time and if this is the case then if we were to go back in time, billions of years when the earth was formed the gravitational pull of the earth would have been so strong that it would not have sustained the primitive life forms that evolutionary scientists claim started the life on earth.

The earth's spin on its axis is also waning over time and if were to go back into time billions of years logically we would have an earth with a spin that is capable of generating wind speeds of up to 500miles/hr. Wind speeds of this kind would have resulted in very turbulent and chaotic earth.

The evidence on ground contradicts the theory that the earth is billions of years old.

For those who argue that the earth is several billions of years old contrary to biblical and other related religious evidence of a very young earth need to see this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttPuVH4jXc which was done several years ago but simply because scientists bent on disproving the idea of God despite the presence of overwhelming evidences that run against their idea of the age of the earth...

Do you still think the earth came by a GLORIOUS ACCIDENT and not A SUPREME GOD according to religions such as Islam and Christianity. Well let's hear from PhD holders in Philosophy, Physics, Chemistry and other fields of study who corroborate the view that the earth was fine tuned and hence suggests the present of an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER, A SUPREME GOD!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEnJYdakou4

Here is a man that made a HUGE MESS out of the Darwinian theory of evolution in less than 5 minutes!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHeSaUq-Hl8

Watch this video with an open mind and answer the question: why would scientists, people who believe in the rigorous methods of experimentation and reason, ever accept any statement or proposition based on FAITH, FAITH, FAITH and not observable evidence and reason in alignment with evidence staring at them in face?

It would take a LUNY to buy the crap of evolution just because we are scared of the likely reality that a GOD exists somewhere.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckfrn5-86xU

Anti-God folks time to speak up and challenge the reality and implications of the FACTS, EVIDENCE AND EXPERIMENTATION presented in the videos i just posted...Afterall, from the statements of many on this thread it appears we are all 'GIANTS' in 'PRAISE OF LOGIC AND EVIDENCE'