asalimpo:
^^^^
philosophically speaking, the question of "A design doesnt require a designer"
can be converted to this categorical question:
Can a complex or simple system exist without a creator/designer?
ignoring the question "wat is a system?"
the burden will be on the person sayg it is impossible to support his answer with understood examples.

To strenghten his answer,he'll appeal to "systems" in real life:
physcal systems,ideological systems ,abstract systems.
But since we are debating about a physcal system-the earth here - his example will hav to b physcal and complex.
Since there is no such example, the philosophical position must agree with an acceptable example or crumble.
It still boils down to d same thing.
A (complex) system cannot exist without a designer

Good so you are saying that


1) A complex system can not exist without a designer
2) Something as complex as the universe has to have a designer



But you forget that

3) God, who is supposed to have created the complex universe has to have an even more complex mind
4) Which means that God is very complex
5) Which finally means that God too must have a designer





I dont know why christians hardly see the logical conclusion of their arguments

There is no glamour in atheism at al. God is real

^^^
Epic waste of a last statement before deactivation

Kay17:




There can be no general premise that a design necessitates a designer because it will end up being circular. It would mean everything must be designed (even the designer), and in the worst cases self contradictory. Imagine a premise that all letters must be preceded and succeed by a letter. Letters will run ad infinitum without an end. Same with this case too.

My second problem is that the "design argument" is an observation of man's creativity, and transposing that creativity with the Universe. We as humans see a human form equally responsible for the Universe. We say Man creates boats, cars, buildings and rocket why not a greater form of man create the Universe. In other words, Gods are anthropomorphic. In fact all Gods are.

Your logic is logically flawed. All what I gained from this write up is that its possible that a design exists without a designer. You capped it up by using irrelevant examples. Science itself that accuses religion that God(an infinite creature) must have been created, argue that it is not LOGICAL to say matter cannot be created or destroyed, just because its impossible on EARTH, when justifying the Big bang. Can you see for yourself? Is this not synonymous to the Christian arguement that its impossible to compare human nature to that of a Spirit. In fact, does it not take much faith to believe that a complex universe like this has no designer? Look at yourself, and nature around you, look around again(if possible, go outside to view nature), are we not to complex to be a design without a designer? Science is searching for the cure of ebola and AIDs, how can a design without a designer guarantee a cure?

If God doesn't exist, how did magic come into existence? One guy was stüpid enough to tell me magic doesn't exist. Another fööl told me if magic exist, then its independent of gods. I laughed. I told them, go to sango worshipers, with them, your silly questions are easily solved .


The Bible is a very powerful historical record, telling us how mankind was created after the GAP THEORY http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/gap_theorists_defended.htm to enjoy and worship God on earth and how sin came into the world, which created suffering and death both in human and animal world. It tells us how mankind went after gods, who tell them to do abominable things like human sacrifice and killing of twins. It tells us how men like Abraham, Istrael served God, which led God to prefer the Israelites and how God dealt severely with Egypt, how Israelites crossed the Red Sea, and how the great wall of Jerico fell(all of which are traceable in history.)


It tells us about how Israelites also went after gods, which made God angry, in which they were severely dealt with, from invasion of Egypt, to Babylonian siege, to Roman siege and finally the HOLOCAUST. It tells us about a wonderful event which happend over 2000 years ago, when God sent his Son to the world, the gory which he passed through and the promise of the second coming.


Many argue that there are many gods, but let me give you a simple method of eliminating these gods, their account of genesis(what are you building if your foundation is very weak), if they are made by hands(a true God can't be made with human hands), If they desire fetish things like blood(true God does not require the blood of his creatures), If their book is highly contradictory e.g. Islam's book is highly contradictory, from the use of We for a supposed monotheist God, to telling us that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified but another person was, even to tell us that Jesus did not call himself the Son of God(Muhammad was born 600AD), without telling us why people wanted to kill the one who healed and cured them of their sickness. You can read quran for yourself or check this incriminating link out http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/pronouns1.html . If they don't explain what caused the gap btw mankind and God. Now tell me which religions remain. I guess its Judaism and Christianity. Judaism is the religion and believe that hates Jesus the most, just like the pharesees and saducees of Christ's time, they are proud and arrogant. They constitute the largest religious believe in Istrael and believe that Christ is coming in future and not our Jesus. They discourage their children from reading New testament and encourage them to tear it off their Bible.


Is there any question you wish to ask?

^^^

You're far below the threshold. Delusions and dogma!

Misogynist2014:
Your logic is logically flawed. All what I gained from this write up is that its possible that a design exists without a designer. You capped it up by using irrelevant examples. Science itself that accuses religion that God(an infinite creature) must have been created, argue that it is not LOGICAL to say matter cannot be created or destroyed, just because its impossible on EARTH, when justifying the Big bang. Can you see for yourself? Is this not synonymous to the Christian arguement that its impossible to compare human nature to that of a Spirit. In fact, does it not take much faith to believe that a complex universe like this has no designer? Look at yourself, and nature around you, look around again(if possible, go outside to view nature), are we not to complex to be a design without a designer? Science is searching for the cure of ebola and AIDs, how can a design without a designer guarantee a cure?

If God doesn't exist, how did magic come into existence? One guy was stüpid enough to tell me magic doesn't exist. Another fööl told me if magic exist, then its independent of gods. I laughed. I told them, go to sango worshipers, with them, your silly questions are easily solved .


The Bible is a very powerful historical record, telling us how mankind was created after the GAP THEORY http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/gap_theorists_defended.htm to enjoy and worship God on earth and how sin came into the world, which created suffering and death both in human and animal world. It tells us how mankind went after gods, who tell them to do abominable things like human sacrifice and killing of twins. It tells us how men like Abraham, Istrael served God, which led God to prefer the Israelites and how God dealt severely with Egypt, how Israelites crossed the Red Sea, and how the great wall of Jerico fell(all of which are traceable in history.)


It tells us about how Israelites also went after gods, which made God angry, in which they were severely dealt with, from invasion of Egypt, to Babylonian siege, to Roman siege and finally the HOLOCAUST. It tells us about a wonderful event which happend over 2000 years ago, when God sent his Son to the world, the gory which he passed through and the promise of the second coming.


Many argue that there are many gods, but let me give you a simple method of eliminating these gods, their account of genesis(what are you building if your foundation is very weak), if they are made by hands(a true God can't be made with human hands), If they desire fetish things like blood(true God does not require the blood of his creatures), If their book is highly contradictory e.g. Islam's book is highly contradictory, from the use of We for a supposed monotheist God, to telling us that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified but another person was, even to tell us that Jesus did not call himself the Son of God(Muhammad was born 600AD), without telling us why people wanted to kill the one who healed and cured them of their sickness. You can read quran for yourself or check this incriminating link out http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/pronouns1.html . If they don't explain what caused the gap btw mankind and God. Now tell me which religions remain. I guess its Judaism and Christianity. Judaism is the religion and believe that hates Jesus the most, just like the pharesees and saducees of Christ's time, they are proud and arrogant. They constitute the largest religious believe in Istrael and believe that Christ is coming in future and not our Jesus. They discourage their children from reading New testament and encourage them to tear it off their Bible.


Is there any question you wish to ask?

This was a very long epistle that does not address my post. I'm not saying that God must be created but I'm uprooting your own general premise that "all designs must have designers"

i. of what consequence is the general premise "All designs have designers"

ii. Is God an anthropomorphic reflection of man

Kay17:


This was a very long epistle that does not address my post. I'm not saying that God must be created but I'm uprooting your own general premise that "all designs must have designers"

i. of what consequence is the general premise "All designs have designers"

ii. Is God an anthropomorphic reflection of man

i. Universe was created by God, without him was anything made in our complex universe that was made. The sinful and rebellious nature of mankind(including me) has made him look far from us, even though he is with us. All we need to have is Faith.

ii. Man is in the image of God(a plural word, signifying trinity) and not the other way. Without you, your shadow is meaningless. You actually know its not you, though it has the ability to do things you can do and resembles you, you control it, but you can't destroy it. That is why God won't destroy our soul, but has the power to put us in heaven or the otherwise. Fear not the one that can destroy the body, but he that can destroy the body and soul is to be feared.

Misogynist2014:

i. Universe was created by God, without him was anything made in our complex universe that was made. The sinful and rebellious nature of mankind(including me) has made him look far from us, even though he is with us. All we need to have is Faith.

ii. Man is in the image of God(a plural word, signifying trinity) and not the other way. Without you, your shadow is meaningless. You actually know its not you, though it has the ability to do things you can do and resembles you, you control it, but you can't destroy it. That is why God won't destroy our soul, but has the power to put us in heaven or the otherwise. Fear not the one that can destroy the body, but he that can destroy the body and soul is to be feared.

i. Your argument has changed. You have left out the premise that all designs need a designer.

ii. Are you capable of making a discussion?!

Kay17:


i. Your argument has changed. You have left out the premise that all designs need a designer.

ii. Are you capable of making a discussion?!

still with this dude?

your faith in humanity can only be admired

Kay17:


i. Your argument has changed. You have left out the premise that all designs need a designer.

ii. Are you capable of making a discussion?!

1) You asked the consequence of all designs have designers, I replied you that it means God designed everything. Since it is true that God created all worldly designers, then all their works ultimately belongs to him.
I tripple-dog dare you to make something out of nothing, the tiniest grain of salt, sand, paper, water or anything you can see around you. Can you? Even sorcerers can't.

People like you think it is easier to disprove the existence of God than to prove it. Big lie! Let's start by asking you my name, the work I do and the time(second, minute, hour, day, month, year) I was born. Tell me the exact number of galaxies we have and a very great disaster that is about to rock our world. Let's tussle over this for a start.

Do you have the answers ? To disprove that an all-knowing God exist, you have to be all-knowing.

Misogynist2014:

1) You asked the consequence of all designs have designers, I replied you that it means God designed everything. Since it is true that God created all worldly designers, then all their works ultimately belongs to him.
I tripple-dog dare you to make something out of nothing, the tiniest grain of salt, sand, paper, water or anything you can see around you. Can you? Even sorcerers can't.

People like you think it is easier to disprove the existence of God than to prove it. Big lie! Let's start by asking you my name, the work I do and the time(second, minute, hour, day, month, year) I was born. Tell me the exact number of galaxies we have and a very great disaster that is about to rock our world. Let's tussle over this for a start.

Do you have the answers ? To disprove that an all-knowing God exist, you have to be all-knowing.

Now, you are outrightly claiming God created the Universe as a matter of fact. How did you get to know that God is the immediate creator of the Universe?!

@bolded of course for God to create the Universe in the absence of everything, it is implied he built it from and on nothing.

Kay17:


Now, you are outrightly claiming God created the Universe as a matter of fact. How did you get to know that God is [i]the immediate [/i]creator of the Universe?!

@bolded of course for God to create the Universe in the absence of everything, it is implied he built it from and on nothing.

I was only trying to show you how powerful God is. As a sage once said, Little of science leads you away from God, but much of it draws you nearer to him.
Lest I forget, you haven't answered my questions. God be praised!!!

Misogynist2014:
I was only trying to show you how powerful God is. As a sage once said, Little of science leads you away from God, but much of it draws you nearer to him.
Lest I forget, you haven't answered my questions. God be praised!!!

Be specific to the points I raised. God is so powerful that he can create from nothingness, but the world can not be powerful enough to spring from nothingness?

Kay17:


Be specific to the points I raised. God is so powerful that he can create from nothingness, but the world can not be powerful enough to spring from nothingness?

HOW DID THE WORLD SPRING FROM NOTHINGNESS? IF THE WORLD CAN SPRING FROM NOTHINESS, THEN TELL ME THINGS YOU'VE SEEN THAT SPRANG FROM NOTHINGNESS SINCE WE SHOULD BE SEEING NEW THINGS AROUND US, POPPING OUT FROM NOTHING? YOU LIKE MANY ATHEIST THINK IT IS YOUR BIRTHRIGHT TO ASK QUESTIONS, ANSWER MINE, THEN ASK YOUR QUESTIONS. Don't chicken away.
The guy liking your posts can help you.

Misogynist2014:
HOW DID THE WORLD SPRING FROM NOTHINGNESS? IF THE WORLD CAN SPRING FROM NOTHINESS, THEN TELL ME THINGS YOU'VE SEEN THAT SPRANG FROM NOTHINGNESS SINCE WE SHOULD BE SEEING NEW THINGS AROUND US, POPPING OUT FROM NOTHING? YOU LIKE MANY ATHEIST THINK IT IS YOUR BIRTHRIGHT TO ASK QUESTIONS, ANSWER MINE, THEN ASK YOUR QUESTIONS. Don't chicken away.
The guy liking your posts can help you.

So let's both agree that nothing can spring out of nothing AND no one can create out of nothing.

Kay17:


So let's both agree that nothing can spring out of nothing AND no one can create out of nothing.

It is anti-wisdow to equate two independent situations which can't happen together(mutually exclusive). If the two situations can co-exist, sage, tell me how our INTELLIGENT world came into existence. Yet for the third time, you've evaded my question.

Misogynist2014:
It is anti-wisdow to equate two independent situations which can't happen together(mutually exclusive). If the two situations can co-exist, sage, tell me how our INTELLIGENT world came into existence. Yet for the third time, you've evaded my question.

I know nothing can spring out of nothing. That's confirmed. Yet on the other hand, you believe everything is created out of nothing, it is in effect the same principle with nothing springing out of nothing.

Kay17:


I know nothing can spring out of nothing. That's confirmed. Yet on the other hand, you believe everything is created out of nothing, it is in effect the same principle with nothing springing out of nothing.

INCEDIBLE!!! Nothing can't spring out of nothing? Then our world shouldn't be in existence. That is flawed logic and fallacy. To certainly say you know something means you know everything about it. That you can't do something or that mankind can't do something doesn't make it impossible. Ordinary questions you can't answer, but you keep making general statements. Even the best of scientists can't display such arrogant conclusion. If they do, then the big bang is a big hoax. What you don't know is nothing is just the term we use in the absence of something. Scoring 0 in an examination is different from not having your name on the register. Just imagine it for once, if nothing doesn't exist, why does it have a name? The mystery of GOD is great!!!

I know my limits, that I can't prove to people like you that God exist, but you can easily prove to me that an all-knowing God does not exist, if only you will answer all my questions.


I know you will craftily dodge the questions. Your likers are waiting for you, don't betray them.

Misogynist2014:
INCEDIBLE!!! Nothing can't spring out of nothing? Then our world shouldn't be in existence. That is flawed logic and fallacy. To certainly say you know something means you know everything about it. That you can't do something or that mankind can't do something doesn't make it impossible. Ordinary questions you can't answer, but you keep making general statements. Even the best of scientists can't display such arrogant conclusion. If they do, then the big bang is a big hoax. What you don't know is nothing is just the term we use in the absence of something. Scoring 0 in an examination is different from not having your name on the register. Just imagine it for once, if nothing doesn't exist, why does it have a name? The mystery of GOD is great!!!

I know my limits, that I can't prove to people like you that God exist, but you can easily prove to me that an all-knowing God does not exist, if only you will answer all my questions.


I know you will craftily dodge the questions. Your likers are waiting for you, don't betray them.

Goodnight.