freshboi88:


So if u agree that the word Baptism does not mean dipping in the case of the Holy Ghost.

So why should u apply it to mean immersion in the case of water....??

That is quite simple. The word baptism means to immerse. In the case of the Holy Ghost it was explained to mean bestowing one with the Holy Ghost so that was explained. If the scripture do not explain water baptism to mean something else then I don't think it is my Christian duty to do so.
I can't be smarter than my maker

freshboi88:


If the doesn't dipping in the Holy Spirit. Then we can agree that the new testament usage of the word does not always mean dipping.

Many words have been used as expressions. For example, Christ said, "eat my flesh and drink my blood." But not everything in the scripture meant something else

freshboi88:


No, I don't...just as u don't have any verse to prove ur immersion standard

My only prove is in the meaning of the word.
If it was to mean some other thing, Christ would have let us know. It would not be up to you to explain. So unless Christ says it means something else, then I am good with the meaning and you should be too

I actually don't see Jesus Christ as a confusionist. His aim wasn't to leave us confused as to the need or mode of baptism. So let's just take his words for what they are unless otherwise stated.
He said immerse. No need to argue if he meant immerse. If he meant some other thing, he would have told us. I can trust his for that

The English word "and" is a conjunction used as a connector between words, phrases, clauses and sentences. In English, "and" is relatively explicit, almost always joining two different things.

The Greek word "Kai" is most often translated into English as "and", but its meaning in Greek goes way beyond that of our familiar English conjunction. In Greek, "Kai" is much more complex in usage, operating in ways that are foreign to English speakers. It could mean "that is", "which is", "namely", or "even".

Due to the complexity of the word "Kai", English readers often misunderstand the meaning of some New Testament verses. One of these is John 3:5 ;

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In this verse, water and Spirit do not imply two different things. As a matter of fact, water and Spirit are one and the same!

Yes, water is the same as the Spirit according to Jesus.

How so?

Jesus often used water as a typology for the Holy Spirit. In other words, water symbolises the Holy Spirit as one can observe in these verses ;

“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

With this understanding, John 3:5 can be rephrased thus :

"Verily verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water which is the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

When does "kai" explain a preceding noun?

We need a little bit of grammar to unravel the Granville Sharp rule, especially copulative conjunctions, which is also known as additive conjunctions. Copulative conjunctions are words that join other words and indicate the relation of an additional information. Examples are "and", moreover, and "also". Also, "the" is the only definite article in English language.


The Granville Sharp rule states that when two singular common nouns are used to describe a person or thing, and those two nouns are joined by copulative conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second ( or the definite article precedes the second noun but not the first), then both nouns refer to the same thing or person.

As an illustration, consider the sentence:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and the sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

The definite article "the" is used twice, before both founder and sponsor. It's clear that Mr. Columbus is founder from the statement above, but the sponsor could be a different person.
Thus, it is not certain if Mr. Columbus is both the founder and the sponsor of the football club.

However, this uncertainty is eliminated in the following reconstruction:

Yesterday, I saw the founder and sponsor of the city football club, Mr. Columbus.

In this case, the definite article “the” is used once, before the first noun. Therefore, Mr. Columbus is both founder and sponsor of the city football club.

In summary, The Granville Sharp rule can be stated as-

Definite article + singular noun + copulative conjunction + singular noun= the same person or thing.

Or in some cases-

singular noun + copulative conjunction + definite article + singular noun = the same person or thing.

We’ll now begin to apply this rule to some Bible verses that are often erroneously taught or understood.

“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice here that the noun "fire" is not preceded by "the". Therefore, The Holy Ghost and fire mean the same thing.
Fire is a figure of the purification of sin.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’”
‭‭The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3-8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

In the Lord’s discuss with Nicodemus, there’s a vital point that must not be overlooked- the number of times Jesus used Spirit compared with the number of times He used water .

Spirit appears three times as against water appearing once!

He never used water again after verse 5.

This is highly significant- The Spirit is the reality and water is just a shadow. He's saying the water is just an explanation for the Spirit. Once He made that point, He knew it was unnecessary to repeat it again.

Water is not required for the new birth. The water doesn't refer to water baptism as some have erroneously preached or taught. Water baptism doesn't lead to salvation.

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭12:13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And that baptism is by the Spirit and by the Spirit only.

Some have also claimed that the water in John 3:5 refers to the word of God quoting 1 Peter 1:23

“having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,”
‭‭I Peter‬ ‭1:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This is fraudulent and illogical, as the word of God here refers to the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. A man becomes born again when he hears the Gospel which is the word of God.

Once again, and for the sake of emphasis, the water in the third verse of John 3 is the Holy Spirit.