Kobojunkie:
It isn't my assertion as those are the Words of God, Jesus Christ, Himself.

I have not read now the vision you speak of, but Jesus Christ said nobody will will admitted in to Heaven and Hell until after His return, so you need to at least ask yourself how those "souls" you assume to be in Heaven were able to sneak in to Heaven against Jesus Christ's own words.

Did Jesus show Apostle John the vision of the book of Revelation? Yes or No...

The words of Jesus in the book of Revelation, are these Jesus' words? or were they forged

OkCornel:
You're quoting the scriptures out of ignorance without understanding the historic and cultural context to the evolution of truth and understanding from Genesis to Revelation;

See my next few posts and acquaint yourself with the growth process

Historic and cultural context to the evolution of Truth.....?

So what you are insinuating is that contrary to that stated by God Himself and even by Jesus Christ insisting that the Word and Truth of God is Everlasting , you instead believe the Truth of God changes over time as historical and cultural contexts take new shape?

Kobojunkie:
Historic and cultural context to the evolution of Truth.....?

So what you are insinuating is that contrary to that stated by God Himself and even by Jesus Christ insisting that the Word and Truth of God is Everlasting , you instead believe the Truth of God changes over time as historical and cultural contexts take new shape?

1. Did Jesus actually believe Abraham's bosom and the place of torment actually existed? Yes or No.

2. If those who were promised eternal life are literally "sleeping in their graves", what are the souls (not resurrected bodies) of martyred saints doing in heaven in Revelation 6 v 9-11?

OkCornel:
Did Jesus show Apostle John the vision of the book of Revelation? Yes or No...

The words of Jesus in the book of Revelation, are these Jesus' words? or were they forged

By the accounts of 2 or 3 witnesses shall a Truth be established... where 2 or 3 witnesses are gathered in my name, God's Truth, there I am , God's Truth, in their midst....right?

Every truth claimed would need to be validated against that previously established by Jesus Christ Himself and through the Law and prophets.

Kobojunkie:
By the accounts of 2 or 3 witnesses shall a Truth be established... where 2 or 3 witnesses are gathered in my name, God's Truth, there I am , God's Truth, in their midst....right?

Every truth claimed would need to be validated against that previously established by Jesus Christ Himself and through the Law and prophets.

Did Jesus reveal those things to Apostle John in the book of Revelation? Yes or No.

What were the souls (not resurrected bodies) of martyrs doing in Revelation 6 v 9-11? Weren’t they “sleeping in their graves”

OkCornel:
1. Did Jesus reveal those things to Apostle John in the book of Revelation? Yes or No.

2. What were the souls (not resurrected bodies) of martyrs doing in Revelation 6 v 9-11? Weren’t they “sleeping in their graves”

1. Jesus Christ said that by the accounts of 2 or 3 witnesses shall a Truth be established. As I already stated, severally, the only way to verify the Truth of what is written in the book of Revelations is to consider the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Prophets and any other witnesses to the very same.

2. According to what John claims he saw in his vision, he saw souls wailing under the altar.

Kobojunkie:
1. Jesus Christ said that by the accounts of 2 or 3 witnesses shall a Truth be established. As I already stated, severally, the only way to verify the Truth of what is written in the book of Revelations is to consider the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Prophets and any other witnesses to the very same.

2. According to what John claims he saw in his vision, he saw souls wailing under the altar.

1. So Jesus lied about the existence of Abraham's bosom and the place of torment?
2. Jesus revealed lies to Apostle John in the book of Revelation? Why weren't those who had eternal life sleeping peacefully in their graves? Why were those martyred souls crying under the altar?...rather than sleeping peacefully up till the day of resurrection. Hmmm?

OkCornel:
1. So Jesus lied about the existence of Abraham's bosom and the place of torment?
2. Jesus revealed lies to Apostle John in the book of Revelation? Why weren't those who had eternal life sleeping peacefully in their graves? Why were those martyred souls crying under the altar?...rather than sleeping peacefully up till the day of resurrection. Hmmm?

As previously made clear....

A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs from a fable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature as characters, whereas parables have human characters.[1] A parable is a type of metaphorical analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable

Again, Jesus Christ told you a parable. He taught instead that those who have eternal life sleep in their grave awaiting the resurrection. That is what Jesus Christ taught His followers.

OkCornel:

JESUS DOES NOT USE FALSEHOOD AS THE BASIS OF HIS PARABLES. Let that sink in. If he speaks of Abraham's bosom and the place of torment in Sheol. These places actually do exist. Case closed.

Great!
So keep that while we keep our understanding that the dead are conscious of nothing! Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

MaxInDHouse:

Great!
So keep that while we keep our understanding that the dead are conscious of nothing! Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

Revelation 6 v 9-11 suggests otherwise.
Jesus' reference to Abraham's bosom and the place of torment suggests otherwise

Are you aware of the evolving views on Sheol from First Temple Judaism to second Temple Judaism?

Kobojunkie:
As previously made clear....
Again, Jesus Christ told you a parable. He taught instead that those who have eternal life sleep in their grave awaiting the resurrection. That is what Jesus Christ taught His followers.

That means the Jews who believed in Abraham's bosom and the place of torment in Sheol believed in lies?
That means Apostle John saw and wrote lies in Revelation 6 v 9-11?

OkCornel:
That means the Jews who believed in Abraham's bosom and the place of torment in Sheol believed in lies? That means Apostle John saw and wrote lies in Revelation 6 v 9-11?

OK.

Kobojunkie, MaxinDHouse.

Can you shed more light on Jonah 2 v 1-2?
1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God.
2 He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.

OkCornel:
Can you shed more light on Jonah 2 v 1-2?
1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God.
2 He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.

Come on now! Jonah said that all while still alive ... now you pretend Jonah actually died and was raised from the dead or something?

Stop with this "keyword-search" approach to understanding what is scripture and start using your head to actually process all that is written.

Kobojunkie:
Come on now! Jonah said that all while still alive ... now you pretend Jonah actually died and was raised from the dead or something?

Oh so Jonah lied he called out to God from DEEP IN the realm of the dead?

OkCornel:

Revelation 6 v 9-11 suggests otherwise.
Jesus' reference to Abraham's bosom and the place of torment suggests otherwise

Are you aware of the evolving views on Sheol from First Temple Judaism to second Temple Judaism?

Ọmọ from that day the Jews killed Jesus the Son of God God's angel in the temple where Jews worship left {Matthew 27:51} so just as Jesus foretold the kingdom of GOD has been taken away from natural Jews {Matthew 21:43} right from that day what they're worshiping till now is demons! Matthew 12:43-45

So true Christians don't have anything to do with Judaism neither do we consider whatever they believe because they've been condemned! Matthew 23:37-38

MaxInDHouse:


Ọmọ from that day the Jews killed Jesus the Son of God God's angel in the temple where Jews worship left {Matthew 27:51} so just as Jesus foretold the kingdom of GOD has been taken away from natural Jews {Matthew 21:43} right from that day what they're worshiping till now is demons! Matthew 12:43-45

So true Christians don't have anything to do with Judaism neither do we consider whatever they believe because they've been condemned! Matthew 23:37-38

But Jesus was a Judaiser at some point...or wasn't he?
He didn't come to abolish the Laws of God, but to fulfill them right?

That being said, did Jesus believe Abraham's bosom and the place of torment were real places? or just falsehood.

Kobojunkie & MaxinDHouse,

Can you explain 1 Peter 3 v 18-20?
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water

Where were these imprisoned spirits Jesus Christ preached to according to the Epistle of Apostle Peter?

Shouldn’t the dead know nothing? Would Jesus be preaching to nothing?

Could this be another lie?

Kobojunkie:
Come on now! Jonah said that all while still alive ... now you pretend Jonah actually died and was raised from the dead or something?

Stop with this "keyword-search" approach to understanding what is scripture and start using your head to actually process all that is written.

You have not answered my question in anyway.

Did Jonah lie that he called out to God from DEEP IN THE REALM OF THE DEAD?

Or you suddenly know Jonah's experience better than Jonah himself? Or was Jonah lying?

I bring out more scripture references, and now it's "keyword search". This is hilarious

OkCornel:

Kobojunkie, MaxinDHouse.
Can you shed more light on Jonah 2 v 1-2?
1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God.
2 He said:
“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.

I don't wish discussing with you further but i will answer this!

Hell, Sheoul, Hades, Grave all means the same thing. Jonah saw the fish that swallowed him so when he realized that he's still alive he concluded that the belly of that fish will be his grave:

And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. Revelations 20:13

Many died in the sea and the were eaten by fish so Jonah thought that he's already in his grave but since he's still alive he prayed to Jehovah for a second chance.

So he wasn't dead rather Jehovah who transformed fire into AC for Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, who transported Elijah in a spiritual aeroplane change fish into a submarine that carried Jonah to Nineveh!

Please i won't answer any further questions so keep what you know!

MaxInDHouse:


I don't wish discussing with you further but i will answer this!

Hell, Sheoul, Hades, Grave all means the same thing. Jonah saw the fish that swallowed him so when he realized that he's still alive he concluded that the belly of that fish will be his grave:

And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. Revelations 20:13

Many died in the sea and the were ate by fish so Jonah thought that he's already in his grave but since he's still alive he prayed to Jehovah for a second chance.

So he wasn't dead rather Jehovah who transformed fire into AC for Shadrach Meshach and Abednego, who transported Elijah in a spiritual aeroplane change fish into a submarine that carried Jonah to Nineveh!

Please i won't answer any further questions so keep what you know!

Okay, this viewpoint makes sense. 1 Peter 3 v 18-20.

Pardon my Oliver Twist

OkCornel:
You have not answered my question in anyway. Did Jonah lie that he called out to God from DEEP IN THE REALM OF THE DEAD? Or you suddenly know Jonah's experience better than Jonah himself? Or was Jonah lying?
I bring out more scripture references, and now it's "keyword search". This is hilarious

Someone already attempted such foolishness and had to be corrected before you came along attempting the same. I am not about to engage in the same silliness again is all.

https://www.nairaland.com/7362176/divine-revelation-hell-mary-baxter
https://www.nairaland.com/7354119/21-contrasts-hell-fire-physical

Anyone with even a smidge of literary intelligence would easily understand that what Jonah did there was an attempt to express using poetry, his experience in the belly of the whale.

Kobojunkie:
Someone already attempted such foolishness and had to be corrected before you came along attempting the same. I am not about to engage in the same silliness again is all.

https://www.nairaland.com/7362176/divine-revelation-hell-mary-baxter
https://www.nairaland.com/7354119/21-contrasts-hell-fire-physical

Anyone with even a smidge of literary intelligence would easily understand that what Jonah did there was an attempt to express using poetry, his experience in the belly of the whale.

And he fell for the bait whilst dodging Revelation 6 v 9-11.

What were the souls of the martyrs doing in heaven?

Shouldn’t they be sleeping peacefully in their graves knowing nothing until the resurrection?

Who were the imprisoned spirits Apostle Peter mentioned in 1 Peter 3 v 18-20? Hmmm?

OkCornel:
BOSOM OF ABRAHAM;
"Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in the biblical Sheol (or Hades in the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures from around 200 BC, and therefore so described in the New Testament) where the righteous dead abided prior to Jesus’ resurrection.
The phrase and concept are found in both Judaism and Christian religions and religious art, but is not found in Islam.
In First Temple Judaism, Sheol in the Hebrew Old Testament, or Hades in the Septuagint, is primarily a place of "silence" to which all humans go. However, during, or before, the exile in Babylon ideas of activity of the dead in Sheol began to enter Judaism.
During the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE–70 CE) the concept of a Bosom of Abraham first occurs in Jewish papyri that refer to the "Bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". This reflects the belief of Jewish martyrs who died expecting that: "after our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us" (4 Maccabees 13:17). Other early Jewish works adapt the Greek mythical picture of Hades to identify the righteous dead as being separated from unrighteous in the fires by a river or chasm. In the pseudepigraphical Apocalypse of Zephaniah the river has a ferryman equivalent to Charon in Greek myth, but replaced by an angel. On the other side in the Bosom of Abraham : "You have escaped from the Abyss and Hades, now you will cross over the crossing place... to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David." In this story Abraham was not idle in the Bosom of Abraham, he acted as intercessor for those in the fiery part of Hades.
The pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch describes travels through the cosmos and divides Sheol into four sections: for the truly righteous, the good, the wicked who are punished till they are released at the resurrection, and the wicked that are complete in their transgressions and who will not even be granted mercy at the resurrection. However, since the book is pseudepigraphic to the hand of Enoch, who predates Abraham, naturally the character of Abraham does not feature.
Later rabbinical sources preserve several traces of the Bosom of Abraham teaching. In Kiddushin 72b, Adda bar Ahavah of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham", Likewise "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" according to Rabbi Levi in Genesis Rabba 67.
In the 1860s Abraham Geiger suggested that the parable of Lazarus in Luke 16 preserved a Jewish legend and that Lazarus represented Abraham's servant Eliezer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham
Further links are in the sources section of the article, for your further study (if you really care to)
THE JEWS BELIEVED ABRAHAM'S BOSOM & THE PLACE OF TORMENT ACTUALLY EXISTED. Jesus also referenced to it in his parables. Jesus uses reality of day to day events in this realm or the hereafter to pass across his messages.
JESUS DOES NOT USE FALSEHOOD AS THE BASIS OF HIS PARABLES. Let that sink in. If he speaks of Abraham's bosom and the place of torment in Sheol. These places actually do exist.
Case closed.

The word she'ol is often understood as hell, the place of the damned or the underworld. How did the Ancient Hebrews perceive she'ol? As I have said before, in order to better understand a word it is essential to look at its root and other related words.

The verbal root sha'al is used almost 200 times and is usually translated as "asked" such as in the following passage.

"and I asked her and said..." (Genesis 24:7)

Why do we ask questions? We are looking for information that is currently unknown to us. This word, "unknown," is the key to understanding the root sha'al and all the words derived from it.

The word she'eylah, a noun derived from sha'al is used in Job 6:8 where it is translated as a request. "O that I might have my request, and that God would grant my desire" (RSV). A request is to ask for something that is not possessed. As it is not possessed it is an unknown. How many times have we asked for something that we knew we needed but when we received it we found out it was not what we thought it would be. In other words, we thought we knew what we were missing but it turns out that what we were requesting was an unknown.

The word she'ol, also derived from sha'al, was understood as the place where one goes when they die. The question is, did they understand this to be simply the grave one is buried in or another place one goes after they die? This is a difficult question to answer as the Hebrew Bible never really defines she'ol. There is evidence however that they understood it to be more than just the grave. First, the word qever is the Hebrew word meaning grave and therefore it is possible that she'ol was understood as something other than the grave. Second, most scriptures using the word she'ol imply a place other than the grave. An example is Genesis 37:35 All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him (RSV). In this account Jacob believed his son Joseph had been eaten by a wild beast. As Joseph's body could not possibly be in a grave, Jacob knew that he would be with him somewhere - she'ol.

The Ancient Hebrews did not know where or even what she'ol was. To them it was an unknown place hence, the use of a word related to sha'al meaning "unknown." It should also be noted that the Ancient Hebrews never speculated on something unknown, it was simply not known and left at that. It is only the Greek mind that desires to know the unknown. It is our Greco-Roman western mindset that needs to know where and what she'ol is.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/hell.htm

cornelboy:

The word she'ol is often understood as hell, the place of the damned or the underworld. How did the Ancient Hebrews perceive she'ol? As I have said before, in order to better understand a word it is essential to look at its root and other related words.

The verbal root sha'al is used almost 200 times and is usually translated as "asked" such as in the following passage.

"and I asked her and said..." (Genesis 24:7)

Why do we ask questions? We are looking for information that is currently unknown to us. This word, "unknown," is the key to understanding the root sha'al and all the words derived from it.

The word she'eylah, a noun derived from sha'al is used in Job 6:8 where it is translated as a request. "O that I might have my request, and that God would grant my desire" (RSV). A request is to ask for something that is not possessed. As it is not possessed it is an unknown. How many times have we asked for something that we knew we needed but when we received it we found out it was not what we thought it would be. In other words, we thought we knew what we were missing but it turns out that what we were requesting was an unknown.

The word she'ol, also derived from sha'al, was understood as the place where one goes when they die. The question is, did they understand this to be simply the grave one is buried in or another place one goes after they die? This is a difficult question to answer as the Hebrew Bible never really defines she'ol. There is evidence however that they understood it to be more than just the grave. First, the word qever is the Hebrew word meaning grave and therefore it is possible that she'ol was understood as something other than the grave. Second, most scriptures using the word she'ol imply a place other than the grave. An example is Genesis 37:35 All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him (RSV). In this account Jacob believed his son Joseph had been eaten by a wild beast. As Joseph's body could not possibly be in a grave, Jacob knew that he would be with him somewhere - she'ol.

The Ancient Hebrews did not know where or even what she'ol was. To them it was an unknown place hence, the use of a word related to sha'al meaning "unknown." It should also be noted that the Ancient Hebrews never speculated on something unknown, it was simply not known and left at that. It is only the Greek mind that desires to know the unknown. It is our Greco-Roman western mindset that needs to know where and what she'ol is.

https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/hell.htm

Apparently, viewpoints on Sheol evolved between First Temple Judaism and Second Temple Judaism. Really has nothing to do with Greco-Roman influence.

Kobojunkie:
All you spewed here is rubbish in what amounts to a desperate attempt at making Jesus Christ seem a part of what is your Taoism idea no different from the desperate attempts of the Muslims.

If you clearly compiled teachings of Jesus Christ, as contained in the Gospels, you would find that your Taoism amounts to idolatry by the standard set by Him.

Care to explain how instead of just shouting Liar Liar Pants On Fire? Youre a big baby.

Care to explain how Taoism amounts to idolatry instead of just making up claims?

You know why you can only resort to your shit logic, Im telling you the truth, and I can easily, rationally explain Christ was a spiritually ascended or evolved individual, this is really difficult to deny. It is difficult to deny this knowledge exists in the East and to a lesser extent the West. This is what you fear that its just too undeniable.

I think youre just a bit of a fundamentalist and you have these tainted views on whats really meant in the bible like how some Christians believe dinosaurs never existed.

SolMaximus:
1.Care to explain how instead of just shouting Liar Liar Pants On Fire? Youre a big baby. Care to explain how Taoism amounts to idolatry instead of just making up claims?

You know why you can only resort to your shit logic, Im telling you the truth, and I can easily, rationally explain Christ was a spiritually ascended or evolved individual, this is really difficult to deny. It is difficult to deny this knowledge exists in the East and to a lesser extent the West. This is what you fear that its just too undeniable.

3. I think youre just a bit of a fundamentalist and you have these tainted views on whats really meant in the bible like how some Christians believe dinosaurs never existed.

1. The reason I call out your lie there is simply because what you claim isn't based on any of that we know of the Prophets nor of the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. Your claim amounts to adjusting pretty much all that is previously known of the character in question in order to write an entire different narrative altogether using only the name.

2. The logic I offer is based exactly that which is written as being taught by Jesus Christ Himself from over 2000 years ago. What is shittier logic is this attempt by you at an image which is a complete departure from that known of the man through His own teachings..

3. Ofcourse any view which accepts the given history of the man as is given is tainted to someone who would rather said history be rewritten in order to suite a different image and ideology than that presented in the original.

Look this one...where Jesus take send anyone go dinosaurs abeg?

Kobojunkie:
1. The reason I call out your lie there is simply because what you claim isn't based on any of that we know of the Prophets nor of the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. Your claim amounts to adjusting pretty much all that is previously known of the character in question in order to write an entire different narrative altogether using only the name.

2. The logic I offer is based exactly that which is written as being taught by Jesus Christ Himself from over 2000 years ago. What is shittier logic is this attempt by you at an image which is a complete departure from that known of the man through His own teachings..

3. Ofcourse any view which accepts the given history of the man as is given is tainted to someone who would rather said history be rewritten in order to suite a different image and ideology than that presented in the original.

Look this one...where Jesus take send anyone go dinosaurs abeg?

Ok, lets look at what the bible has to say about Jesus. One thing you I think is observable to most people is that many years of the life of Jesus are omitted from the bible. Why is that. I think if people are going to believe in Jesus and go along with Christianity, you/we/people should do our best to understand how Jesus attained that level of development to attain "resurrection" where he "ascends into heaven". I believe it, I think you believe it, but how do you think we achieve it?

I personally believe the bible omits various elements that would more easily explain how or why the events in the life of Jesus Christ occurred. This includes omitting things like what if Jesus went to Egypt and was initiated into a secret Sun Cult, what if he travelled to India/China, or travelled elsewhere to study world religions/spiritual practices. This all seems fairly plausible and rational even in the ancient world, and I don't see anything disallowing this more rational understanding of what really happened in the bible.

SolMaximus:
1. Ok, lets look at what the bible has to say about Jesus. One thing you I think is observable to most people is that many years of the life of Jesus are omitted from the bible. Why is that. I think if people are going to believe in Jesus and go along with Christianity, you/we/people should do our best to understand how Jesus attained that level of development to attain "resurrection" where he "ascends into heaven". I believe it, I think you believe it, but how do you think we achieve it?

2. I personally believe the bible omits various elements that would more easily explain how or why the events in the life of Jesus Christ occurred. This includes omitting things like what if Jesus went to Egypt and was initiated into a secret Sun Cult, what if he travelled to India/China, or travelled elsewhere to study world religions/spiritual practices. This all seems fairly plausible and rational even in the ancient world, and I don't see anything disallowing this more rational understanding of what really happened in the bible.

1. Is this the reason why you feel you need to take it on yourselves to essentially rewrite the life and character of Jesus Christ in your own image then?

If you actually paid close attention to His very teachings, you would find it written the answers to that which you seek, right in Jesus Christ's own words...but I doubt that matters at all to you since you would rather have answers that suit the image of Him you prefer.

2. See what I mean? You somehow feel that by finding a way to pull the name of Jesus Christ into your own ideas, rewrite His man in the image you prefer, you can maybe make make sense, to yourself and maybe others, that which you currently struggle to make sense of without. Yet you wonder why I consider it all idolatry as far as the established History and teachings of Jesus Christ is concerned.

Kobojunkie:
1. Is this the reason why you feel you need to take it on yourselves to essentially rewrite the life and character of Jesus Christ in your own image then?

If you actually paid close attention to His very teachings, you would find it written the answers to that which you seek, right in Jesus Christ's own words...but I doubt that matters at all to you since you would rather have answers that suit the image of Him you prefer.

2. See what I mean? You somehow feel that by finding a way to pull the name of Jesus Christ into your own ideas, rewrite His man in the image you prefer, you can maybe make make sense, to yourself and maybe others, that which you currently struggle to make sense of without. Yet you wonder why I consider it all idolatry as far as the established History and teachings of Jesus Christ is concerned.

Its not so much I'm trying to rewrite the image of Christ, im just thinking outside of typical denominations of Christianity which you may subscribe to, and there's nothing wrong with that technically. I have nothing against typical denominations you may be a part of such as the Roman Catholic Church, or whatever it may be, but I think you're instantly assuming these social/logic norms, and thats fine, because its technically not incorrect. Yes "the answers are there in Jesus' words" but what does that really mean to you, by the way? What does spiritual liberation mean to you?

What I struggle to get over is why the bible omits a significant segment of the life of Jesus Christ. Why is that. Do you really trust a text from thousands of years ago that has been translated various times by a number of small groups. Don't mistake my criticism of the bible as a disbelief in Christianity, because I certainly do believe in it, and even the entire claim and message of Christ. Its all valid I think if you rationally think about the spirituality of it. In any event this does not answer why the bible omits a significant segment of the life of Jesus Christ. If the message of Jesus Christ is so valid then why arnt we allowed to know officially how Jesus became a miracle maker or how he grew up, etc. why isn't this part of the mainstream discourse in mainstream denominations?

What if over history people just cherrypicked what was appropriate in terms of the accounts of Jesus Christ in order to control people? This is one of the most rational questions one should ask themselves when considering the nature of the bible. You have to be able to look at society and think whats spiritually, mentally, and physically controlling people, but most importantly in this case is the idea if the messenger is so valid, Jesus Christ, why dont you know about significant years in his life or how Jesus became a messiah.

Was he a wizard?

An Egyptian Priest?

An ancient Freemason?

Was he an Indian Guru who activated his Kundalini energy?

When we begin exploring these ideas, we begin realizing how translatable these concepts can be to many biblical concepts such as the "Son of God" - and we know what this is from typical discourse in Christian denominations, this is to be God incarnate, manifest of God representative to the human race, if I'm not mistaken. This may all be a metaphor, however outside typical Christian denominations, of various states of being/consciousness achieved via various claimed methods like meditation.

You may believe and its your right if you ever so choose so to believe meditation is anti-Christian, I'm not so convinced. Do you believe Jesus or God looks at people who meditate as sinners or wrong-doers? Its a debatable matter I think if the bible really says that meditation is idolatry or wrong-doing in Christian thought.

OkCornel:

Apparently, viewpoints on Sheol evolved between First Temple Judaism and Second Temple Judaism. Really has nothing to do with Greco-Roman influence.

If she'ol is any place other than a literal grave or hell why didn't God say anything about it throughout the Torah/OT?

The viewpoints that evolved from first temple Judaism and second temple Judaism are mere speculations. Not inspired by God.

cornelboy:

If she'ol is any place other than a literal grave or hell why didn't God say anything about it throughout the Torah/OT?

The viewpoints that evolved from first temple Judaism and second temple Judaism are mere speculations. Not inspired by God.

So Jesus that spoke about Abraham's bosom and the place of torment is not inspired by God too?

Does Abraham's bosom exist? if the excuse is...Jesus was using it in his parables to pass across a message...

He also used parables to explain the kingdom of heaven. Does it also mean the kingdom of heaven/God is a fantasy place?