honesttalk21:
loins" refers to the portion of the body below the rib cage and just above the pelvis. This term is frequently used for the segment below the ribs.

Sometimes loin human anatomy is also described as including the groin, genitals, hips, and lower abdomen region.

Maybe for layman, u lump it all together.
Just like leg to common man refers to the whole lower limb.
And arm refers to the whole upper limb.
In medical field, u have to be specific. Which part of the body is called loin- the side of the abdomen, the area btw the lowest rib and the pelvis.

Fluid not semen coming from the thoracic cavity as you state leads back to origins however your adequate schooling me in embryology is welcome though of limited benefit as I didn't go anywhere in medical learning.

Gonads, the organ that produces gametes, of male and female gender arise in the upper lumbar region during embryonic development.
The development of reproductive organs begins at an early stage in the embryo.

During embryonic and fetal life both the testes and the ovaries descend from their original position in the thorax to a much lower level.

SIRTee15:


I don't get it. What does pelvic floor muscles has to do with semen production. Did the Koran mention pelvic floor muscles? What is the role of pelvic floor muscles in semen production. If a man has defect in pelvic floor muscles, can he still ejaculate?
What we see here is what we call 'forced association with dubious intent'.
This is what Muhammad said
[i]86:5. "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs."
Now the description above is clearly stating the semen proceeds from the thoracic cavity. Of course, that's nonsense.
So modern Muslims have moved the goalpost in a bid to force anatomy into the Koran.
First it was kidney, then backbone, then coccyx, then pelvic muscle wall and finally the prostate. Gbam, the verse finally makes sense.

Do u know the interesting thing, there's Arabic word for prostate which is known in ancient Arabia because camels also have prostate.
To safe us the stress, why didn't Muhammed just say the semen proceed from the prostate. If he had said that, will there be anyone doubting this statement?

My reference to Joshua 10 was about sun standing still, we Christians understand the exegesis regarding the verse.

Besides can u explain to me why u think the bulbourethral gland is located in the loin.

Dr Zakir Naik stated that medical studies have shown the development of gonads at embryonic state as stated above.

May we grow in useful and beneficial understanding

honesttalk21:
Fluid not semen coming from the thoracic cavity as you state leads back to origins however your adequate schooling me in embryology is welcome though of limited benefit as I didn't go anywhere in medical learning.

Gonads, the organ that produces gametes, of male and female gender arise in the upper lumbar region during embryonic development.
The development of reproductive organs begins at an early stage in the embryo.

During embryonic and fetal life both the testes and the ovaries descend from their original position in the thorax to a much lower level.

The gonads originate from the upper lumbar region where the human kidney is located, not the thoracic region.
Since we going into science, then we have to be specific.
Your prophet clearly states the fluid originates from in between the ribs and backbone. There's no rib from the lumbar region, so your prophet is wrong.

honesttalk21:
Dr Zakir Naik stated that medical studies have shown the development of gonads at embryonic state as stated above.

May we grow in useful and beneficial understanding

Dr zakir naik is a controversial Islamic apologist.
He's known for his erroneous pseudoscience theory and fact denials.
Zakir Naik's preaching has been banned in India, Bangladesh, Canada, the UK, and Malaysia under anti-terrorism and anti-hate laws. He will be last person I will take serious.

Besides all embryology statements in the Qur'an are not Muhammad's original works. They were ancient theories of fetal formation postulated by likes of Aristotle, Galen, knowledge of aryurveda medicine in India.

All these knowledge precede the Qur'an. Muhammed simply copied them into the Koran.
Check the book of Galen- Greek physician 129-216 AD, On the formation of the fetus, u will realise Muhammed is a nothing but a plagiarist.

For example, ancient physicians already noticed paralysed men have big problem with erection and ejaculation. They know the paralysis have to do with backbone problem, thus they assumed the backbone is connected with semen production.
That's the erroneous theory Muhammed lifted and inserted into the Qur'an.

honesttalk21:
Dr Zakir Naik stated that medical studies have shown the development of gonads at embryonic state as stated above.

May we grow in useful and beneficial understanding

The kidney-gonad lumbar region theory was proposed by Dr zakir Naik to explain the problematic Qur'anic verse but the idea isn't new. It was first proposed by Hippocrates more than 1000 years b4 Muhammed.

The Greek physician Hippocrates theorized this wrong idea long before Muhammad that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
According to Hippocrates, this semen is the product of the whole body, though it is the brain which mostly contributes to its formation. At the moment of sexual intercourse, the humidity in the body becomes like effervescent foam, the semen is carried through the veins to the spinal cord and the kidneys, whence it makes its way to the testicles en route to the genital organ.
Joseph Bajada "Sexual Impotence: The Contribution of Paolo Zacchia, 1582-1659", Rome: Editrice Pontifica Universita Gregoriana, 1988, pp. 44-45


Finally, even if we are to accept the gonad-lumbar theory, it still won't fit into the Quranic verse because sperm cells do not originate from the lumbar area.
The original position of the early sperm cells are not related to the kidneys but the wall of the yolk sac which eventually form part of the intestine.

Where do the ribs attach to?
The rib cage, in vertebrate anatomy, basketlike skeletal structure that forms the chest, or thorax, and is made up of the ribs and their corresponding attachments to the sternum (breastbone) and the vertebral column.


According to Keith L. Moore, the testes develop in the extraperitoneal connective tissue in the superior lumbar region of the posterior abdominal wall. As the scrotum and labia majora form in males and females respectively, the gubernaculum aids in the descent of the gonads (both testes and ovaries).

Interestingly, the position of testes before descending is same as of kidney and more interestingly kidney is between backbone and ribs.

SIRTee15:


The gonads originate from the upper lumbar region where the human kidney is located, not the thoracic region.
Since we going into science, then we have to be specific.
Your prophet clearly states the fluid originates from in between the ribs and backbone. There's no rib in the lumbar region, so your prophet is wrong.

honesttalk21:
Where do the ribs attach to?
The rib cage, in vertebrate anatomy, basketlike skeletal structure that forms the chest, or thorax, and is made up of the ribs and their corresponding attachments to the sternum (breastbone) and the vertebral column.


According to Keith L. Moore, the testes develop in the extraperitoneal connective tissue in the superior lumbar region of the posterior abdominal wall. As the scrotum and labia majora form in males and females respectively, the gubernaculum aids in the descent of the gonads (both testes and ovaries).

Interestingly, the position of testes before descending is same as of kidney and more interestingly kidney is between backbone and ribs.

The testes arise from the mesonephric duct which is located in the lumbar region b4 it's descent.
The fetal kidney was formed in the pelvic region b4 it's ascent to its present position.
It is incorrect to assume the position of the embryonic gonads from the position of the adult kidneys, as the embryonic positions of gonads and kidneys are not the same as their adult positions.
This was the same error drlateef made and got stuck because he couldn't defend the embryology of the theory he was pushing. The gonad and kidney didn't develop in same position in fetal life.

Gonads descend, while kidneys enlarge and ascend. Also, the developing gonads are ventro-medial to the mesonephros (i.e. the embryonic kidney) and not the metanephros that later become adult kidney.

The idea that the gonads emerge from present adult kidney is inaccurate because in the condition of cryptorchidism where the testes is undescended, the highest position of the undescended testes is below the kidney at L3.

Read my other post which invalidate this claim even if it's correct.

Embryonic folding during the fourth week of development marks the beginning of the urinary tract with the formation of a longitudinal mass known as the urogenital ridge. The ridge can divide into parts depending on the system it forms; the nephrogenic cord will form the urinary tract while the gonadal ridge will develop into the reproductive system.

Muhammad is not the author of the Quran. He relayed the revelation period.

Allah has revealed the most beautiful message, a Book consistent in its verses yet [b]repeating its teachings in different ways. [/b]Those who fear their Lord are filled with awe when they hear it, their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides with it whom He pleases. But he to whom He confounds shall have none to guide him." ( Al Quran# 39:23, Translation- M. Farook Malik).

SIRTee15:


The gonads originate from the upper lumbar region where the human kidney is located, not the thoracic region.
Since we going into science, then we have to be specific.
Your prophet clearly states the fluid originates from in between the ribs and backbone. There's no rib in the lumbar region, so your prophet is wrong.

honesttalk21:
Embryonic folding during the fourth week of development marks the beginning of the urinary tract with the formation of a longitudinal mass known as the urogenital ridge. The ridge can divide into parts depending on the system it forms; the nephrogenic cord will form the urinary tract while the gonadal ridge will develop into the reproductive system.

Muhammad is not the author of the Quran. He relayed the revelation period.

Allah has revealed the most beautiful message, a Book consistent in its verses yet [b]repeating its teachings in different ways. [/b]Those who fear their Lord are filled with awe when they hear it, their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides with it whom He pleases. But he to whom He confounds shall have none to guide him." ( Al Quran# 39:23, Translation- M. Farook Malik).

What u brought forward is too simplistic for the detailed embryology we discussing here. Which part of the vertebrae is related to the urogenital ridge?
The nephrogenic cord isn't just one single unit, it has 3 different ducts. Which one gives rise to the the adult and embryogenic kidney? Which one is related to the gonad?
U guys are the ones pushing embryology into Qur'an so u must be ready to go into detail.

I dont understand how the Quranic verse has anything to do with what's being discussed here.

A book filled with plagiarism from all sorts cannot be called beautiful.
I repeat none of Muhammad's fetal formation statements were his own original works. He simply repeated common knowledge of his time.

honesttalk21 actually took up the challenge to defend embryology in Islam despite not in the medical profession. Kudos to him.
He sounded sincere but like all Muslims when faced with the hard truth, they shrink or hide under the phrase 'Qur'an is always right even if proven wrong'.
honesttalk21 did both, what a big shame. Seems Muslims are not ready to face the truth about their Koran and their prophet.

I repeat all embryology statements in the Koran were plagiarised by Muhammad from previous works done by ancient physicians. None were novel to the Qur'an. Ancient physicians up to the 17 th century, believed the spinal cord is involved in semen production.

Muhammad didn't hear from God, Qur'an isn't the word of God, but disjointed work of muhammed's disorganized thought process.

The pelvic cavity is a bowl-like structure that sits below the abdominal cavity

I first apologise for wrongly interpreting the meaning of the verse and striving to link embryonic anatomy to the verse. More especially to SirTee15

It is a valuable experience encouraging me to reflect and research on the verses; it has not been one to take that much of my attention before stumbling on this discussion.

The actual meaning of the verses are that mankind should reflect on where he was created from (87:5); created from a fluid ejected (87:6) perhaps the semen of the father though it could be of the mother too being that females too produce fluids but this is not the case.

Even if we agree that the reproductive organs of both male and female occupy a region bound or in-between the coccyx (end of the backbone and the ribs).

Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs 87:7

Now this is not referring to the reproductive fluids of either male or female but the baby that has been in the womb that occupied a space between the backbone and the ribs.

During baby development the womb/uterus expands and spreads within this region as the baby grows. Some women report pain or feeling of kicks of the baby on the ribs and back/backbone.

This is the meaning of the verses. And the Surah goes on to inform that mankind can be returned to life after he must have passed on. This is the might of Allah towards when there will be judgement and the hereafter.

SIRTee15:


So I don't get it. What does pelvic floor muscles has to do with semen production. Did the Koran mention pelvic floor muscles? What is the role of pelvic floor muscles in semen production. If a man has defect in pelvic floor muscles, can he still ejaculate?
What we see here is what we call 'forced association with dubious intent'.
This is what Muhammad said
[i]86:5. "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs."
Now the description above is clearly stating the semen proceeds from the thoracic cavity. Of course, that's nonsense.
So modern Muslims have moved the goalpost in a bid to force anatomy into the Koran.
First it was kidney, then backbone, then coccyx, then pelvic muscle wall and finally the prostate. Gbam, the verse finally makes sense.

Do u know the interesting thing, there's Arabic word for prostate which is known in ancient Arabia because camels also have prostate.
To safe us the stress, why didn't Muhammed just say the semen proceed from the prostate. If he had said that, will there be anyone doubting this statement?

My reference to Joshua 10 was about sun standing still, we Christians understand the exegesis regarding the verse.

Besides can u explain to me why u think the bulbourethral gland is located in the loin.

honesttalk21:
The pelvic cavity is a bowl-like structure that sits below the abdominal cavity

I first apologise for wrongly interpreting the meaning of the verse and striving to link embryonic anatomy to the verse. More especially to SirTee15

It is a valuable experience encouraging me to reflect and research on the verses; it has not been one to take that much of my attention before stumbling on this discussion.

The actual meaning of the verses are that mankind should reflect on where he was created from (87:5); created from a fluid ejected (87:6) perhaps the semen of the father though it could be of the mother too being that females too produce fluids but this is not the case.

Even if we agree that the reproductive organs of both male and female occupy a region bound or in-between the coccyx (end of the backbone and the ribs).

Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs 87:7

Now this is not referring to the reproductive fluids of either male or female but the baby that has been in the womb that occupied a space between the backbone and the ribs.

During baby development the womb/uterus expands and spreads within this region as the baby grows. Some women report pain or feeling of kicks of the baby on the ribs and back/backbone.

This is the meaning of the verses. And the Surah goes on to inform that mankind can be returned to life after he must have passed on. This is the might of Allah towards when there will be judgement and the hereafter.

Well some pragmatic islamic scholars interpret the verse as such....baby in the womb which is between the backbone and rib.
To me that's fine. But what's the scientific miracle about it.
Even a blind man knows a growing womb has the baby and it grows towards the ribs while pushing the backbone behind.
There's no miracle here my friend.

Anyway, I appreciate your honesty. That's a rare and invaluable quality in mankind.
You are a good person....unlike that drlateef who was caught here 3ce lying about embryology but arrogantly forming what I dont know.

Well, as ordinary as it seems, creating a new human being is no simple feat. No matter who you are, once upon a time you were not but a single cell and then multiplied by division. You built a body that has one hundred trillion cells. You made hundreds of different kinds of tissues and dozens of organs, including a brain that allows you to do remarkable things.

You went through all trimesters and labour without dying or aborting. Isn't this a miraculous thing or we generally trivialize this as just normal because we got through it.

I may not fully understand what you mean by there's no miracle here.

SIRTee15:


Well some pragmatic islamic scholars interpret the verse as such....baby in the womb which is between the backbone and rib.
To me that's fine. But what's the scientific miracle about it.
Even a blind man knows a growing womb has the baby and it grows towards the ribs while pushing the backbone behind.
There's no miracle here my friend.

Anyway, I appreciate your honesty. That's a rare and invaluable quality in mankind.
You are a good person....unlike that drlateef who was caught here 3ce lying about embryology but arrogantly forming what I dont know.

honesttalk21:
Well, as ordinary as it seems, creating a new human being is no simple feat. No matter who you are, once upon a time you were not but a single cell and then multiplied by division. You built a body that has one hundred trillion cells. You made hundreds of different kinds of tissues and dozens of organs, including a brain that allows you to do remarkable things.

You went through all trimesters and labour without dying or aborting. Isn't this a miraculous thing or we generally trivialize this as just normal because we got through it.

I may not fully understand what you mean by there's no miracle here.

So the argument about embryology in the Koran started with drlateef claiming the verse is a scientific miracle in the Qur'an. Which means nobody knew about the embryological analysis of that verse at the time the revelation was given to Muhammed.
That's how the whole argument started.

I'm just stating that the womb growing btw the ribs and backbone is not a scientific discovery in the Qur'an.

Noted

drlateef stop believing in scientific miracles in the Koran. It's nonsense.
Even your top dawah guys now call it nonsense.


https://youtube.com/shorts/_1nu6MVgNX8?feature=share3

Even islamic scholars are beginning to caution Muslims apologetics about pushing the scientific claim narrative during dawah.
Because its been shown some reverts leave Islam after discovering the so called koranic scientific claim is a sham.