I have said elsewhere that I do not care to know anything except I have been shown that it somehow bears upon the increase of Christ in the life. I do not care for argument for its own sake, or argument intended to rip an opposing view to pieces. I argue to test ideas against all the power of reason, hopefully Holy Spirit-governed reason too by any luck. The issue I wish to present here for study and debate, as far as I can see, bears upon the Christian's development such that a misapprehension of it renders him ill disposed to the Love of Christ which is the Very Nature of God from whom the Christian is said to derive birth.

I beg that each commenter presents his arguments with respect to the categories I have listed out. Where you consider each category inadequate in accommodating your position, I beg that you define clearly what your position is and go on to establish it in the Bible.

I actually meant to join in on Frosbel's thread on the matter and in fact did with the following statement, but I felt that that argument ran too long to accommodate the approach I was bringing to it. This is why I imported my opening statement straight off my comment on that thread with very little editing to begin this new one. I look forward to your answers.

"I stand on the Bible's revelation of God as a trinity of three persons in perfect unity. I will not try to show how that concept makes sense, but I will gladly show that the Scriptures take the trinity of God for granted.

But, for those who question the deity of Jesus Christ, I ask you to please show how His Death on the Cross made any sense if He was not God Himself.

For those who insist that the trinity is absurd, and that there is no such thing, please show that the Bible says so and indicate willingness to reconcile portions in the Bible that contradict that position.

Finally, for those who think that the Trinity is One Person Who assumes three different aspects, explain how such a Person is Perfect Love, because the Bible says that God is Love. Love must, by very definition, have an object. Therefore if this Person is Perfect Love, they must have been Loving something perfectly from before there ever was a Creation. You will indicate how God as One Person is Perfect Love while loving nothing (or show what He was loving) until He created. Also explain why He created at all.

My questions are directed only at such as accept the Bible as final authority. If you do not, please ignore my questions, they are not directed at you at all."

i hv always stood on d belief that there's a trinity-God in 3 distinct, different yet synchronised beings. And whilst it might seem that there r different thoughts on d issue in d bible, if u really sit down nd compare scripture 2 scripture, u'l inevitably cme bck 2 d same conclusion-trinity.

you have already answered all the questions you raised in your own way.you have clearly stated that you have an opinion that has roots as solid as the rock of gilbatrar.now here's my question,why are you starting a thread on an issue you have already made a conclusion on?especially since you already have a prograamed answer you expect.is your ego that large that it needs massaging?do you need to have "partners" in your line of thinking?perhaps you want reassurance that your line of thinking isnt total bollocks

FOCUSING ON TRINITY IS DEMONIC AND NOT SCRIPTURAL. THIS IS ROMAN CATHOLIC BULLCRAP. STOP TALKINGGGGG ABOUT TRINITY. NEXT TIME I READ ABOUT TRINITY AGAIN ON NL I PROMISE TO SMASH MY PUTER

buzugee: FOCUSING ON TRINITY IS DEMONIC AND NOT SCRIPTURAL. THIS IS ROMAN CATHOLIC BULLCRAP. STOP TALKINGGGGG ABOUT TRINITY. NEXT TIME I READ ABOUT TRINITY AGAIN ON NL I PROMISE TO SMASH MY PUTER

who cares if u do?mtchewwwww

buzugee: FOCUSING ON TRINITY IS DEMONIC AND NOT SCRIPTURAL. THIS IS ROMAN CATHOLIC BULLCRAP. STOP TALKINGGGGG ABOUT TRINITY. NEXT TIME I READ ABOUT TRINITY AGAIN ON NL I PROMISE TO SMASH MY PUTER

who cares if u do?mtchewwwww.the doctrine of d Blessed Trinity is mystery dat u can't n will neva understand,except by His divine wisdom.

Jerry2i: who cares if u do?mtchewwwww.the doctrine of d Blessed Trinity is mystery dat u can't n will neva understand,except by His divine wisdom.

MORE LIKE THE DOCTRINE OF BEELZEBUB

buzugee: FOCUSING ON TRINITY IS DEMONIC AND NOT SCRIPTURAL. THIS IS ROMAN CATHOLIC BULLCRAP. STOP TALKINGGGGG ABOUT TRINITY. NEXT TIME I READ ABOUT TRINITY AGAIN ON NL I PROMISE TO SMASH MY PUTER

Thanks my brother...

How can we be deliberÀting on some crap set up on paganism??....

Trinity,trinity,trinity but that wonderful word does nt even exist in d scriptures(I knw sometimes trinitarians wish d word was sneakÉd into d latin vulgate)...

How can a doctrine which is central tÓ true worship not be found in the bible but Ónly in some man made creeds....

Then what the hell are we to deliberate on??....

just a lil whilÉ from now they'll run around celebrating the birthday of Jesus,Yahweh and d holyspirit joined together on decem.ber 25th just as pagans. From whom the triune .doctrine was .borrowed. From always do..........

ijawkid:

Thanks my brother...

How can we be deliberÀting on some crap set up on paganism??....

Trinity,trinity,trinity but that wonderful word does nt even exist in d scriptures(I knw sometimes trinitarians wish d word was sneakÉd into d latin vulgate)...

How can a doctrine which is central tÓ true worship not be found in the bible but Ónly in some man made creeds....

Then what the hell are we to deliberate on??....

just a lil whilÉ from now they'll run around celebrating the birthday of Jesus,Yahweh and d holyspirit joined together on decem.ber 25th just as pagans. From whom the triune .doctrine was .borrowed. From always do..........

i have never seen the word before in the bible. dunno where all these nut jobs come up with the demonic doctrine

Jerry2i: who cares if u do?mtchewwwww.the doctrine of d Blessed Trinity is mystery dat u can't n will neva understand,except by His divine wisdom.

And so u understand d mystery abi??

Mystery my foot!!!!!!!!!!!......

The nicean creed instigated the mystery
..........

Even Jesus never talked about the trinity but here we are arguing over nothing....

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one 1John 5:7 KJV.

Now that's a bit of scripture for you guys. Can we now get down to the bible and start discussing properly without shouting all over the place?

Mr_Anony: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one 1John 5:7 KJV.

Now that's a bit of scripture for you guys. Can we now get down to the bible and start discussing properly without shouting all over the place?

what you quoted is not talking about the trinity. what that means is that your deeds are monitored by the father, the holy spirit in you and the word ( which is the spirit of christ ). so these are the 3 things that store up your deeds. they are one in that they all record mans deeds.

its like how you have 3 score boards recording one game. they are a unit because they are recording the same game but they are 3 different separate things.

Mr_Anony: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one 1John 5:7 KJV.

Now that's a bit of scripture for you guys. Can we now get down to the bible and start discussing properly without shouting all over the place?

Mr anony are u new to this forum??

That verse u quoted has been debunked as spurious.....

An addition from the latin vulgate...

Throw away that verse and let us discuss......

That verse does nt exist in the original greek text.....

Abi u no know??

buzugee: what you quoted is not talking about the trinity. what that means is that your deeds are monitored by the father, the holy spirit in you and the word ( which is the spirit of christ ). so these are the 3 things that store up your deeds. they are one in that they all record mans deeds.

its like how you have 3 score boards recording one game. they are a unit because they are recording the same game but they are 3 different separate things.

Let us assume that,that verse did exist in d original text,it still does not support or even mean d trinity...

Verse 8 tells us that blood,water and spirit(that same spirit that is in verse 7 mr anony quoted) are also one.....

is blood and water also part of a trinity or do they form a trinity??



I ask trinitarians this question a lot...

Meanwhile buzu bobo good explanation.....

ijawkid:

Let us assume that,that verse did exist in d original text,it still does not support or even mean d trinity...

Verse 8 tells us that blood,water and spirit(that same spirit that is in verse 7 mr anony quoted) are also one.....

is blood and water also part of a trinity or do they form a trinity??



I ask trinitarians this question a lot...

Meanwhile buzu bobo good explanation.....

you know what it is ? some people are mental hoarders. they find it difficult to let go of mistakes learnt from the past. they probably went to catholic church and heard the demonic trinity doctrine. and ever since then they cant do their own bible study to see that this is rubbish doctrine. and they just hold on to the past errors and perpetuate it from generation to generation.

Delafruita: you have already answered all the questions you raised in your own way.you have clearly stated that you have an opinion that has roots as solid as the rock of gilbatrar.now here's my question,why are you starting a thread on an issue you have already made a conclusion on?especially since you already have a prograamed answer you expect.is your ego that large that it needs massaging?do you need to have "partners" in your line of thinking?perhaps you want reassurance that your line of thinking isnt total bollocks

I'm not sure why you're upset (you seem so).

Is it that I have a stand? Should I refrain from taking one? I am thoroughly convinced about the validity of the Trinity and I set up this thread to test the various positions that I have come to know exist concerning the matter against the Scriptures. Should anyone succeed at showing by the Bible that their stand is correct then a review of my position becomes necessary and I'll stand corrected.

Of course, I have no doubts where the Trinity is concerned, but anyone with a different position will establish doubt if he can prove beyond question and from the Bible that my stand about the Trinity is wrong.

Ijawkid and buzugee, I hope that you two will get done blowing hot air at some point and set about taking a stand and defending it from the Bible. So far all I've seen is a lot of insult and abuse hurled at a position you don't like not an argument of any sort to invalidate it.

And when you go with there's no word such as "trinity" in the Bible to attack the concept, you're not making an argument. You're just making an excuse not to do any intellectual work. My request was for commenters to use their heads to come up with Scriptural arguments for their position.

I have named the difficulties in the defined categories. Pick your category and solve the difficulties associated with it then your comments will have served some useful purpose.

ijawkid:

Mr anony are u new to this forum??

That verse u quoted has been debunked as spurious.....

An addition from the latin vulgate...

Throw away that verse and let us discuss......

That verse does nt exist in the original greek text.....

Abi u no know??

Ok. So it's not in the original Greek. Does it disagree with the rest of the Bible? If you think it does, show us how.

Ihedinobi: Ijawkid and buzugee, I hope that you two will get done blowing hot air at some point and set about taking a stand and defending it from the Bible. So far all I've seen is a lot of insult and abuse hurled at a position you don't like not an argument of any sort to invalidate it.

And when you go with there's no word such as "trinity" in the Bible to attack the concept, you're not making an argument. You're just making an excuse not to do any intellectual work. My request was for commenters to use their heads to come up with Scriptural arguments for their position.

I have named the difficulties in the defined categories. Pick your category and solve the difficulties associated with it then your comments will have served some useful purpose.

seems like you are the one blowing hot air. you did not bring out one scripture to prove to us why you believe in the trinity. you just pretty much vomited your own vain opinions. if you started the question by quoting the scripture that supports your belief in trinity, then your post would have made sense. right now your question is a pile of kaka. so please quote scriptures of trinity so we can at least pretend to take you serious

Ihedinobi:

Ok. So it's not in the original Greek. Does it disagree with the rest of the Bible? If you think it does, show us how.

What is ur take on verse 8 of that 1 john chapter 5.....

And sorry if it sounded as if I and buzu were insultive.....

What do u have to say about the holy spirit also being one with blood and water....

Remember the scriptures explains itself....

ijawkid:

What is ur take on verse 8 of that 1 john chapter 5.....

And[b] sorry if it sounded as if I and buzu were insultive.[/b]....

What do u have to say about the holy spirit also being one with blood and water....

Remember the scriptures explains itself....

i thought i was quite polite actually. then again i have not quite won any pulitzer prize for my manners yet

ijawkid:

What is ur take on verse 8 of that 1 john chapter 5.....

And sorry if it sounded as if I and buzu were insultive.....

What do u have to say about the holy spirit also being one with blood and water....

Remember the scriptures explains itself....

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one [/i]1John 5:8 KJV

Notice your clever wordplay? Clearly, verse 7 and verse 8 are not saying the same thing.

I'll give you another verse to chew on:

[i]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

I hope you do realize that Isaiah was prophesying about Jesus Christ's coming. I have highlighted some interesting titles this child has.

.........maybe it is the evil latin vulgate at work again

Let me explain something to both you guys, Ijawkid and Buzugee. I made an opening statement. It indicated my intentions for the thread. There is no law that says anyone must answer the post. I appreciate it when anyone does, but once they do, they're morally obligated to stay within the bounds of the discussion.

I have said that if it were necessary I am prepared to show that the Scriptures take the concept of the Trinity of God for granted. That necessity will exist when it becomes logical and obligatory for me to present a better explanation than the one offered by the holder of a position I disagree with.

Neither of you two have defined a position and explained it reasonably such that I can reject it and come under necessity to producte a better answer than it. Why then do you ask me questions? It is only right that you answer mine which opened the thread.

Again, what are your positions, both of you, and how do you answer the difficulties I have pointed out? If I disagree with your answers, I will be reasonably compelled to offer mine to your own questions.

Ihedinobi: Let me explain something to both you guys, Ijawkid and Buzugee. I made an opening statement. It indicated my intentions for the thread. There is no law that says anyone must answer the post. I appreciate it when anyone does, but once they do, they're morally obligated to stay within the bounds of the discussion.

I have said that if it were necessary I am prepared to show that the Scriptures take the concept of the Trinity of God for granted. That necessity will exist when it becomes logical and obligatory for me to present a better explanation than the one offered by the holder of a position I disagree with.

Neither of you two have defined a position and explained it reasonably such that I can reject it and come under necessity to producte a better answer than it. Why then do you ask me questions? It is only right that you answer mine which opened the thread.

Again, what are your positions, both of you, and how do you answer the difficulties I have pointed out? If I disagree with your answers, I will be reasonably compelled to offer mine to your own questions.

ok so i just read your question very well and i will say i give up. seems like one of those questions that requires answers based on conjectures and assumptions and innuendos and personal opinions. i deal in pure sound doctrine. questions relating to pure biblical verses. as such i will have to dip out of this question. preciate you though

buzugee: ok so i just read your question very well and i will say i give up. seems like one of those questions that requires answers based on conjectures and assumptions and innuendos and personal opinions. i deal in pure sound doctrine. questions relating to pure biblical verses. as such i will have to dip out of this question. preciate you though

Many thanks

Mr_Anony:

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one [/i]1John 5:8 KJV

Notice your clever wordplay? Clearly, verse 7 and verse 8 are not saying the same thing.

I'll give you another verse to chew on:

[i]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

I hope you do realize that Isaiah was prophesying about Jesus Christ's coming. I have highlighted some interesting titles this child has.

.........maybe it is the evil latin vulgate at work again

Agree in ONE,ONE,in agreement are all d same......

Jesus said we (his disciples) are one with him just as he is one with the Father..go read john 17:22-24....

Are we Jesus??

If we are one with Jesus then u shuld understand where this all ends...

U had better go check up other verses of the bible to help u give d right exegesis.....

Isaiah prophesied about the coming of Jesus,but not of Yahweh...

I hope u understand??

Meanwhile throw away that spurious verse from 1 john .....

Its because of that verse we are even discussing this issue in d 1st place....

I don't know why the word ""ONE"" is still a problem to u guys after much scriptures to help u understand.....


Even husband and wife are to become 1 flesh after there marraige....

Mayb we shuld call them 2nity...

Since its hard to understand oneness.....

ijawkid:
Agree in ONE,ONE,in agreement are all d same......

Jesus said we (his disciples) are one with him just as he is one with the Father..go read john 17:22-24....

Are we Jesus??

If we are one with Jesus then u shuld understand where this all ends...

U had better go check up other verses of the bible to help u give d right exegesis.....

Isaiah prophesied about the coming of Jesus,but not of Yahweh...

I hope u understand??

Meanwhile throw away that spurious verse from 1 john .....

Its because of that verse we are even discussing this issue in d 1st place....

I don't know why the word ""ONE"" is still a problem to u guys after much scriptures to help u understand.....


Even husband and wife are to become 1 flesh after there marraige....

Mayb we shuld call them 2nity...

Since its hard to understand oneness.....

What is your position? Describe clearly in terms of the categories described in my opening statement.

Ihedinobi: I have said elsewhere that I do not care to know anything except I have been shown that it somehow bears upon the increase of Christ in the life. I do not care for argument for its own sake, or argument intended to rip an opposing view to pieces. I argue to test ideas against all the power of reason, hopefully Holy Spirit-governed reason too by any luck. The issue I wish to present here for study and debate, as far as I can see, bears upon the Christian's development such that a misapprehension of it renders him ill disposed to the Love of Christ which is the Very Nature of God from whom the Christian is said to derive birth.

I beg that each commenter presents his arguments with respect to the categories I have listed out. Where you consider each category inadequate in accommodating your position, I beg that you define clearly what your position is and go on to establish it in the Bible.

I actually meant to join in on Frosbel's thread on the matter and in fact did with the following statement, but I felt that that argument ran too long to accommodate the approach I was bringing to it. This is why I imported my opening statement straight off my comment on that thread with very little editing to begin this new one. I look forward to your answers.

"I stand on the Bible's revelation of God as a trinity of three persons in perfect unity. I will not try to show how that concept makes sense, but I will gladly show that the Scriptures take the trinity of God for granted.

But, for those who question the deity of Jesus Christ, I ask you to please show how His Death on the Cross made any sense if He was not God Himself.

For those who insist that the trinity is absurd, and that there is no such thing, please show that the Bible says so and indicate willingness to reconcile portions in the Bible that contradict that position.

Finally, for those who think that the Trinity is One Person Who assumes three different aspects, explain how such a Person is Perfect Love, because the Bible says that God is Love. Love must, by very definition, have an object. Therefore if this Person is Perfect Love, they must have been Loving something perfectly from before there ever was a Creation. You will indicate how God as One Person is Perfect Love while loving nothing (or show what He was loving) until He created. Also explain why He created at all.

My questions are directed only at such as accept the Bible as final authority. If you do not, please ignore my questions, they are not directed at you at all."

I wish to state that you brand of trinity is different from what we have come to know of the trinity,

if i have understood you correctly, you are saying that the three are distinct individuals.
That the father is different from the son.

That Jesus christ is a different person from the father and hence that is why the father is call love since his love was shown to the son from the begining cus the father cant show love in a void.

That Jesus is also God.

That the holy spirit is also God.

It is import to note that your brand of trinity is different from that of Oladegbu and that of Frosbel and Enigma. That unless otherwise stated they cant state that this is there explanation of trinity.

However, it is pertinent to note that
while the father is recognise as a person and God in the bible Exodus 6,3 as allmighty God.

And Isaiah 9:6 recgnise Jesus as mighty God.

The is no place in the Bible that the so call third person in the bible has such clear designation as a person, nor is it also identified as a God like we have just seen in the case of the other two personage.

I will rest my case for now.
Peace

^^^ I'm not convinced that you have a full understanding of the respective positions of the people you've mentioned i.e. me, Olaadegbu and Frosbel. In the case of Frosbel, he is actually against the Trinity doctrine.

You can get some idea of my views on the Trinity on various threads I don't want to list now.

However, for a number of reasons ---- including especially regarding the 'debate' about 1 John 5:7 ---- I will point to the thread in the following link.

https://www.nairaland.com/497445/trinity-doctrine-invented-council-meeting

ijawkid:
Agree in ONE,ONE,in agreement are all d same......

Jesus said we (his disciples) are one with him just as he is one with the Father..go read john 17:22-24....

Are we Jesus??

If we are one with Jesus then u shuld understand where this all ends...

U had better go check up other verses of the bible to help u give d right exegesis.....

Isaiah prophesied about the coming of Jesus,but not of Yahweh...

I hope u understand??

Meanwhile throw away that spurious verse from 1 john .....

Its because of that verse we are even discussing this issue in d 1st place....

I don't know why the word ""ONE"" is still a problem to u guys after much scriptures to help u understand.....


Even husband and wife are to become 1 flesh after there marraige....

Mayb we shuld call them 2nity...

Since its hard to understand oneness.....

Lol, let's not play semantics over the meaning of oneness. I'll let it go for now but even at that, you have not explained why Isaiah refers to Jesus in his prophecy as Mighty God and Everlasting Father.

I'll give you yet another verse to chew on.
Jesus said:
[i]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self [b]with the glory which I had with thee [/b]before the world was. [/i]John 17:5 KJV

Does God share His glory with anyone?

....to deny Trinity my friend, you will have to deny a truckload of scripture.

truthislight:

I wish to state that you brand of trinity is different from what we have come to know of the trinity,

if i have understood you correctly, you are saying that the three are distinct individuals.
That the father is different from the son.

That Jesus christ is a different person from the father and hence that is why the father is call love since his love was shown to the son from the begining cus the father cant show love in a void.

That Jesus is also God.

That the holy spirit is also God.

It is import to note that your brand of trinity is different from that of Oladegbu and that of Frosbel and Enigma. That unless otherwise stated they cant state that this is there explanation of trinity.

See that bolded part? I'm curious as to where I said anything like that.

However, it is pertinent to note that
while the father is recognise as a person and God in the bible Exodus 6,3 as allmighty God.

And Isaiah 9:6 recgnise Jesus as mighty God.

The is no place in the Bible that the so call third person in the bible has such clear designation as a person, nor is it also identified as a God like we have just seen in the case of the other two personage.

I will rest my case for now.
Peace

I take this to mean

- that you reject the concept of the Trinity of God

- that you believe the Father alone is God

- that Jesus is not God

- that the Holy Spirit is not even a Person at all.

This places you in the first and second categories described in my opening statement.

Now please answer the following questions for me, if you please.

- How does Jesus Christ's death on the Cross save anybody if He wasn't God?

- Since the Father alone is God and none other shares Godhood with Him, how is it that He is Love?

- Since the Father alone is God, why did He create anything at all?

- Please how do the Scriptures indicate the Holy Spirit to be anything but a Person?

The concept of trinity is a mystery that possibly cannot be fully unearthed using human language. Jesus, by his teachings, did not mince word as to the positions and roles of the triune God. Its central aim is to underscore the hierarchical order in heaven inspite of their equality- an example unto christian homes and the church. As regards the intricacies of trinity, I do not have full understanding. Jesus is said to be sitting at the right hand of the father (suggesting two personalities) yet God is said to be one. The best illustration is that of water that manifests as ice, water or steam. God perhaps manifest sometimes as 3 separately or at the same time even though he is 1. In all, He is Omnipotent and Omniscient. When we know everything about him, he ceases to be God.