darlingbas: My only concern about the topic being discussed is that Jesus never called or referred to himself as God, i don't think it would be out of place not to refer to him as one.I think we all agree that he is the son of God which will suffice for now, given that we have a very limited understanding of God,i am sure he will not count it as a sin on our part for not referring to Jesus/the holy spirit as God. Personally I'll rather play safe and and not risk blasphemy.
All parties on this discussion have done a swell job, i am learning a lot from you all

EXCELLENT!

Freksy:


- How is God Love if He is only One Person? How did He express His Nature of Love before He created anything?
Love is inner quality and an individual can possess and display it. You can express love to yourself and others. Even when alone, you can express love to yourself.
Remember the saying: 'love your neighbor as you love yourself'

God loved himself even before we were created. He is described in the Bible as a happy God. He is not selfish with His love. Out of love he created us. The greatest display of his love is when he sent his only begotten son to come and die for sinful humans.

Please reconcile this position with "Love...is not self-seeking" - 1 Cor 13:5.

- Why did God create at all?
He created us because he loved us. He wanted you to share the joy of life like him. Think about the things he put in place on earth for you and how wonderfully you were made. This explains partly why it pains him greatly when the ones he created out of love disobey or insult him.

He never intended for any of us to suffer, grow old, hunger, feel pain, get sick and die. All these odd things happen now because our first human father/Adam disobeyed God.
To make sure the purpose for which we were created is realized, out of His love, he sent his only begotten son, the last Adam to come and undo what the first Adam did.

Jesus' death restored the hope of benefiting from God's original purpose for man whom he created out of love and best intention.

Please explain what you mean by this "joy of life".
Explain also what you mean by "like him".

- How does Jesus's sacrifice save anyone if He was not God?

Jesus sacrifice was a ransom that needed to be paid to buy back what the first Adam sold out, namely, perfection and prospect of everlasting life.

The first Adam was perfect before he sinned and lost perfection and eternal life, to balance the scale of justice, a perfect man was also needed to correspondingly ransom man from sin and death and thus repair our damaged relationship with the Almighty. This would reconcile us again to the Almighty and put us again in line for everlasting life.

Recall that the first Adam was not the Almighty God, but a perfect man, so the ransom by another perfect man, the last Adam, was just enough to balance the scale of justice. That is why the ransom provided by Jesus can also be described as "A corresponding ransom". Sending His perfect son was enough for the ransom.

Again, when a ransom is paid, someone else must be there to receive the ransom price. That is why after the death and resurrection of Jesus, he went first to heaven to
present himself to his father, the Almighty God.

(a) Please explain how perfection could be sold out and a perfect man can sin. If perfection can become less perfect, explain how we can trust God to remain perfect and never fail of expectation of fulfillment of His Promises and obligations.

(b) Justify your statement that the first Adam was a perfect man by the Scriptures.

(c) You seem to be implying in the last paragraph that it was God that Jesus had to buy back the perfection from. Disregarding the difficulties in the assumptions upon which your answer is based, reconcile God's taking back perfection from Adam with "God's gifts and His call are irrevocable" - Rom 11:29. If my understanding concerning the last paragraph is wrong, then indicate from whom Jesus was to buy back man's perfection.

(d) Please explain the Justice of God in sending His "perfect son", who was not God and therefore not responsible for creation, to take responsibility for creation's failure. If God is just, why does He lay upon an entity the moral responsibility rightly belonging to another entity both of whom are in the same moral position before God?

(e) What was this relationship that we had with God that got damaged? How did the Death of Jesus Christ suffice to repair it?

- How do the Scriptures show that the Holy Spirit is not God?

The scriptures show that the Holy Spirit is not God by never referring to it as God.

Though it is personified just like many other things in the Biblie, it impersonal ussage on several occasions in the Bible shows it is not a person.

The holy spirit lacks personal identity. It is virtually the only nameless God/person in the universe.

(a) Per the two bolded statements, please provide the Scriptures upon which they are founded.

(b) Please explain how the presence or absence of a name affects the personality of an entity.

(c) Finally, show that John 16:13-15 does not satisfactorily explain why the Holy Spirit is little known as to its/his own personality.

@Ihedinobi, this is an iteresting post that you started with lots of potentials in understanding the nature of God, but your whiny narcissistic attitude is annoying to say the least. you don't have the sole right to asking questions. Just as you expect others to answer your question so should you do likewise in return.
Adam was perfect just like Satan before he sinned. to be perfect means that one is more than capable to live a sin free life(doing what is good all of the time) without removing the choice to do what is bad. There is no inner attraction towards evil unlike an imperfect man that is always in contention with his desires as. described in Romans 7:21-25 Please read
Gods world is built on truth any lie or sin will result in death, that is why adam died and that will also be the ultimate end of satan and his demons as well as the decendants of all adams offspring but for the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus.
If God should lie he will die, but since God is immortal and cannot die it makes impossible for him to lie. The same applies to his son now that he is immortal. When he was on earth he could have chosen to lie or sin that was why rhe devil tempted him because he had the same nature as Adam when he was on earth.

Your assertion that love must have an object is not true instead love must first bubble up from within for that being to want to share that magnificent life with others. in other words Gods love moved him to to share that life and it began with his only begotten son.

dorox: @Ihedinobi, this is an iteresting post that you started with lots of potentials in understanding the nature of God, but your whiny narcissistic attitude is annoying to say the least. you don't have the sole right to asking questions. Just as you expect others to answer your question so should you do likewise in return.
Adam was perfect just like Satan before he sinned. to be perfect means that one is more than capable to live a sin free life(doing what is good all of the time) without removing the choice to do what is bad. There is no inner attraction towards evil unlike an imperfect man that is always in contention with his desires as. described in Romans 7:21-25 Please read
Gods world is built on truth any lie or sin will result in death, that is why adam died and that will also be the ultimate end of satan and his demons as well as the decendants of all adams offspring but for the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus.
If God should lie he will die, but since God is immortal and cannot die it makes impossible for him to lie. The same applies to his son [b]now that he is immortal. [/b]When he was on earth he could have chosen to lie or sin that was why rhe devil tempted him because he had the same nature as Adam when he was on earth.

Just wanted to highlight something in your post. Do you mean that Jesus was formerly mortal then became immortal at some point? Please clarify what you mean by "...now that He is immortal"

dorox: Your assertion that love must have an object is not true instead love must first bubble up from within for that being to want to share that magnificent life with others. in other words Gods love moved him to to share that life and it began with his only begotten son.

How can love bubble within in a vaccum without an object upon which it be bestowed.

Listen to this conversation tell me if it makes sense.

Dorox: I am in love!
Anony: Who are you in love with
Dorox: Nothing at all

Mr_Anony:
Just wanted to highlight something in your post. Do you mean that Jesus was formerly mortal then became immortal at some point? Please clarify what you mean by "...now that He is immortal"

My understanding is that before jesus died on earth he had an everlasting life which is quite different from an immortal life. Jesus could die and that is why he was able to present himself as a sacrifice, had he chosen not to die, he could have avoided being killed. Now that he cannot be killed again is what immortality
means.
You said it yourself that he died for us and to do that one must be mortal.

Mr_Anony:
Just wanted to highlight something in your post. Do you mean that Jesus was formerly mortal then became immortal at some point? Please clarify what you mean by "...now that He is immortal"

I hope u are aware that your post here poses questions on whether the so called "laying down his life" was any sacrifice at all. If I am an immortal divine being that has existed for all eternity, coming here to die and then return to my divine majesty (knowing beforehand that I will be resurected in three days) is hardly laying down any life, is it?

Mr_Anony:
How can love bubble within in a vaccum without an object upon which it be bestowed.

Listen to this conversation tell me if it makes sense.

Dorox: I am in love!
Anony: Who are you in love with
Dorox: Nothing at all

if you kids that was not forced on you due to circumstance but was planned for then you might begin to understand how you can have love even before having your child.
It follows that if you hate yourself having a child would probably the last thing on your mind and ending your life will be high up.

dorox:
if you kids that was not forced on you due to circumstance but was planned for then you might begin to understand how you can have love even before having your child.
It follows that if you hate yourself having a child would probably the last thing on your mind and ending your life will be high up.

Excellent, but you are neglecting something here. The only way you can love your kids before they are born is because you have experienced love (or hate) before.
When it concerns God, God in this case cannot have the luxury of prior experience before creation.

Mr_Anony:
Excellent, but you are neglecting something here. The only way you can love your kids before they are born is because you have experienced love (or hate) before.
When it concerns God, God in this case doesn't have the luxury of prior experience before creation.

God did not have and does not need prior experience for anything he has done, that's what makes him the almighty God. Jesus the mighty God though very powerful still says that all that he knows he learnt from the father.

dorox:
God did not have and does not need prior experience for everything he has done, that's what makes him the almighty God. Jesus the mighty God though very powerful still says that all that he knows he learnt from the father.

You have now sidestepped the issue. The point is that love cannot exist without relationship.

What is interesting here is that contrary to what Trinity actually is, you have now shown two different everlasting uncreated "Gods" one mightier than the other. So in your apparent attempt to escape the truth of Trinity, you have jumped right back into the polytheism that most accuse 'trinitarians' of.

Deep Sight:

I hope u are aware that your post here poses questions on whether the so called "laying down his life" was any sacrifice at all. If I am an immortal divine being that has existed for all eternity, coming here to die and then return to my divine majesty (knowing beforehand that I will be resurected in three days) is hardly laying down any life, is it?

Actually, the sacrifice involves more than that. The sacrifice includes God reducing Himself to the level of man in the first place.......We really should have that conversation.

dorox: @Ihedinobi, this is an iteresting post that you started with lots of potentials in understanding the nature of God, but your whiny narcissistic attitude is annoying to say the least. you don't have the sole right to asking questions. Just as you expect others to answer your question so should you do likewise in return.

I started this thread with an objective in mind. Only such people as respect that objective are in a correct moral position to respond. Even if I can't force people to respect my objective, I reserve the full rights to complain when someone addresses himself to a subject that I raised in a completely insensible way. Nobody is compelled to answer any post of mine. But if they do, they do well to follow my flow. When they change the flow, it should be within reason. And I have not been given any good reason for which people come on this thread to attack a concept of the trinity that I have not presented for questioning.
If anyone wishes to comment, it is only right that it should be in response to my opening comments. And those comments indicated a preparedness to offer a better explanation when theirs fail to hold up under scrutiny. So, it's those who have a poor position that whine not I who have not even provided one.

Adam was perfect just like Satan before he sinned. to be perfect means that one is more than capable to live a sin free life(doing what is good all of the time) without removing the choice to do what is bad. There is no inner attraction towards evil unlike an imperfect man that is always in contention with his desires as. described in Romans 7:25

First bolded. Please show where the Bible said so. Also show where the Bible said that Satan was perfect until he sinned.

Second bolded. Dictionary.com defines perfect thus

1. Flawless
2. Excellent
3. Complete; thorough
4. Designating a verb tense that indicates an action already completed.
5. To make faultless (verb)

Which one agrees with your definition?

Third bolded. How does this agree with the second bolded? Where does choice exist when the options cannot appeal to the individual?

Please, commenters on this thread, allow me to make an offer. If you people accommodate my apparent arrogance and answer my questions, I promise that I will put out here a full argument for the truth of the Trinity of God. I will show how and why the Bible takes it for granted and does not bother with trying to indicate it as a doctrine at all.

Consider it my own personal opinion, if you will, but I will give here a full treatise addressing all the difficulties I have presented to other positions and I will gladly accommodate all difficulties pointed out in it. But I cannot do so at this stage because it will be premature and I will not be considered to have given fair hearing to other views. Again, I beg you all to accommodate me.

Ihedinobi:

I started this thread with an objective in mind. Only such people as respect that objective are in a correct moral position to respond. Even if I can't force people to respect my objective, I reserve the full rights to complain when someone addresses himself to a subject that I raised in a completely insensible way. Nobody is compelled to answer any post of mine. But if they do, they do well to follow my flow. When they change the flow, it should be within reason. And I have not been given any good reason for which people come on this thread to attack a concept of the trinity that I have not presented for questioning.
If anyone wishes to comment, it is only right that it should be in response to my opening comments. And those comments indicated a preparedness to offer a better explanation when theirs fail to hold up under scrutiny. So, it's those who have a poor position that whine not I who have not even provided one.



First bolded. Please show where the Bible said so. Also show where the Bible said that Satan was perfect until he sinned.

Second bolded. Dictionary.com defines perfect thus

1. Flawless
2. Excellent
3. Complete; thorough
4. Designating a verb tense that indicates an action already completed.
5. To make faultless (verb)

Which one agrees with your definition?

Third bolded. How does this agree with the second bolded? Where does choice exist when the options cannot appeal to the individual?

EXCELLENT!
I must admit I had a moment of guilty pleasure watching you dismantle his argument, I purposely didn't want to reply that post I wanted to let you finish him off (now I feel bad for gloating)

The thing most people don't realize is that once they deny Trinity, they must then prove from the bible that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not eternal and are creations of God the Father or that there are three eternal 'Gods'.

Knowing God is so awesome! I must confess, sometimes I feel a certain pride that I have that privilege

To quote a post from the start of this thread;

isquar3d3: i hv always stood on d belief that there's a trinity-God in 3 distinct, different yet synchronised beings. And whilst it might seem that there r different thoughts on d issue in d bible, if u really sit down nd compare scripture 2 scripture, u'l inevitably cme bck 2 d same conclusion-trinity.

Very funny indeed, love love, soon the hindu will restate his own version of the trinity, and then sight God's loves as evidence . . . The love theory is not unique and can be used by just any tom, . . . To justify their own view on what can be at any point in time, . . . It is very surprising anybody can still tender such a poor excuse as evidence for the trinity . . . , atleast with love, god casn take the role of a TRANSFORMER becoming anything we want . . . Love nails it!

vedaxcool: Very funny indeed, love love, soon the hindu will restate his own version of the trinity, and then sight God's loves as evidence . . . The love theory is not unique and can be used by just any tom, . . . To justify their own view on what can be at any point in time, . . . It is very surprising anybody can still tender such a poor excuse as evidence for the trinity . . . , atleast with love, god casn take the role of a TRANSFORMER becoming anything we want . . . Love nails it!

Yes love nails it! How else does a perfect God communicate with imperfect man without expressing Himself 'imperfectly'?

It is true that there is that type of love which requires an object to bestow it upon, this i think is too narrow and specific. I have explained how one can have love and out of the ambudance of that love be move to have children.
The bible has called lesser beings than jesus God and not in a negetive way. Psalm 82:6 refered to judges as Gods and Jesus also quoted the above scripture in John 10:34 to show that if the sciptures can call men appointed as judges Gods how much more him
God's annointed. Moses was also said to be like God unto Aaron in Exodus4:16
Adam And Eve after eating the fruit were said to have become like God able decern what is good and what is bad independent of a higher authority. Satan is the God of this world however like adam his Godship is independent of Yaweh.
Even though Jesus is called a mighty God, he does not do anything on his own accord but with the will if his father and while he deserves to be honored exclusive devotion belongs to God Almighty.

Mr_Anony:
Yes love nails it! How else does a perfect God communicate with imperfect man without expressing Himself 'imperfectly'?

Oh so the hindu trinity is as valid as the christian one? That's is something new . . . Love truly nails the imperfect god/religion!

vedaxcool:

Oh so the hindu trinity is as valid as the christian one? That's is something new . . . Love truly nails the imperfect god/religion!

How does perfect God communicate with imperfect man without expressing Himself imperfectly?

Mr_Anony:
How does perfect God communicate with imperfect man without expressing Himself imperfectly?

Your diversionary tactics can only work in a church not in the real world, The Hindus who have their own form of trinity that pre-dated that of Christianity can as well invoke the love pocus . . . and they would still be right . . .love truly nails an imperfect god/religion

Mr Anony, thanks for the thumbs up, bro. It's also why I left you to answer his postulations about loving in a vacuum. Love your answer there

I'll be unavailable for a bit, you guys. I'll be back a little late in the day. For now sha, dorox, it'd be real nice if you could just take the difficulties in your answer and address them one by one. A general statement covering all the questions is tedious to address. But, if it's asking too much, I'll address your answer as it is when I come back. . .unless Mr Anony decides to do it for me. And his answers will be mine as well, believe me.

Later, guys

vedaxcool:

Your diversionary tactics can only work in a church not in the real world, The Hindus who have their own form of trinity that pre-dated that of Christianity can as well invoke the love pocus . . . and they would still be right . . .love truly nails an imperfect god/religion

avoiding the question are we?
....that's interesting because you are at the same time accusing me of using diversionary tactics

Mr_Anony:
avoiding the question are we?

Yeah like did u to, is there anything wrong with that? Mr. diversionary tactics

vedaxcool:

Oh so the hindu trinity is as valid as the christian one? That's is something new . . . Love truly nails the imperfect god/religion!

vedaxcool:

Yeah like did u to, is there anything wrong with that? Mr. diversionary tactics

Perhaps it escaped your notice that the purpose of this thread is not to discuss the "hindu trinity" but to inquire - through the bible - into the nature of God as Trinity

Ihedinobi: Mr Anony, thanks for the thumbs up, bro. It's also why I left you to answer his postulations about loving in a vacuum. Love your answer there

I'll be unavailable for a bit, you guys. I'll be back a little late in the day. For now sha, dorox, it'd be real nice if you could just take the difficulties in your answer and address them one by one. A general statement covering all the questions is tedious to address. But, if it's asking too much, I'll address your answer as it is when I come back. . .unless Mr Anony decides to do it for me. And his answers will be mine as well, believe me.

Later, guys

There is no difficulties in my answer if anything it is your position that is difficult and tedious to defend.
It is you that the burden of proof rest on to show that the bible supports such a pagan
concept as the trinity,after all going by your standard of arguement it was never mentioned in the bible.
Adam was perfect in the sense that he was more than able to follow God's instruction to the letter. And for as long as he did that, God would have continued to sustain his life. If he was not perfectly capable of remaining steadfast to Gods commandment, the the punishment of death would have been unjust. Or are you saying that it was God's fault that adam sinned? That would be the logical conclusion if adam was not perfect.
Read my previous post again to get a better understanding of my take on what perfection means

dorox: It is true that there is that type of love which requires an object to bestow it upon, this i think is too narrow and specific. I have explained how one can have love and out of the ambudance of that love be move to have children.
The bible has called lesser beings than jesus God and not in a negetive way. Psalm 82:6 refered to judges as Gods and Jesus also quoted the above scripture in John 10:34 to show that if the sciptures can call men appointed as judges Gods how much more him
God's annointed. Moses was also said to be like God unto Aaron in Exodus4:16
Adam And Eve after eating the fruit were said to have become like God able decern what is good and what is bad independent of a higher authority. Satan is the God of this world however like adam his Godship is independent of Yaweh.
Even though Jesus is called a mighty God, he does not do anything on his own accord but with the will if his father and while he deserves to be honored exclusive devotion belongs to God Almighty.

You have just succeeded in twisting a bunch of scriptures out of context just to make your point.
You see, to deny the divinity of Jesus, you now have to convert every bible character into God therefore rubbishing the meaning of God entirely...............How do you read your bible again?

Many people in the bible have been called God and yes i deliberately capitalized the G because there was no distinction in the Hebrew text used at that time to differenciate God from god. It is only the four letter hebrew alphabet YHWH that was exclusive to the almighty God.

Mr_Anony:
Perhaps it escaped your notice that the purpose of this thread is not to discuss the "hindu trinity" but to inquire - through the bible - into the nature of God as Trinity

Well my point has been made, if love is enough excuse for God to be what u want him to be, then the same love is enough excuse the hindus, sango worshippers etc for God to be what they concieve him to be, any attempt to know the truth shouldn't stop where u want, just because it serves u right! Rather matters should be viewed holistically!

Ihedinobi:

See that bolded part? I'm curious as to where I said anything like that.



I take this to mean

- that you reject the concept of the Trinity of God

- that you believe the Father alone is God

- that Jesus is not God

- that the Holy Spirit is not even a Person at all.

This places you in the first and second categories described in my opening statement.

Now please answer the following questions for me, if you please.

- How does Jesus Christ's death on the Cross save anybody if He wasn't God?

- Since the Father alone is God and none other shares Godhood with Him, how is it that He is Love?

- Since the Father alone is God, why did He create anything at all?

- Please how do the Scriptures indicate the Holy Spirit to be anything but a Person?

how can you say anything you like and ascribed it to me?

I dont know what Jesus being a God has to do with dying for our sin.
Was Adam a God?
The Bible calls Jesus the second Adam.

Did i not quote Isaiah 9:6? Jesus mighty God?

Did you not say God is love? 1John 4:8?

I only said according to Exodus 6:3 Jehovah allmighty God.

So, I only said that you should show me where the Bible Directly call the holy spirit
1. a person, or
2. directly said it is a God like it did on Jesus And his Father. Ball is on your court.
Pls

and no phony verses like 1john 5:7
cus the verses that calls Jesus and his father God are not questionable.
Peace

ijawkid:

So john 17:5 supports d trinity??

Abi I dey dream??

Lol.....

The same way the Father glorifies the son is the same way the son glorifies his disciples....

What ever happens between The Father and the son is what the son extends to us humans as well....

U had better start adding us to the trinity formular....

U barely understand context and scriptural explanations.......

##The Father glorifies the Son,the Son glorifies disciples......I still dÓnt know if u've read thru those verses I gave u....

##The Father and the son are one.....the Son and his disciples are one.......

The relationship goes on.....

##The Father is greater than the Son,The son is greater than man.....1 corinthians 11:3......


It goes on and on......

Why would Jesus be begging his Father to glorify Him if he was part of a formular that shows that He is the Father or equal to the Father....

Why would Jesus even pray in the 1st place??

It is d trinity doctrine that has so much discrepancies.....not long ago we spotted a verse that was added by trinitarians just to support there pagan stance.....

It only takes a false or spurious verse in d bible to support a false doctrine....

As easy as ABC.......

Truth is light just asked every one here to show us where in the bible the holy spirit was called a God or God........

U have a lot to prove my bro......

Ur just struggling to prove what constantine and his crew started....

Ona go tire very soon......

There's one more thing...

I was recently baffled to find out that just as our( mans) existence is dependent on Jesus,so also Jesus's existence is dependent on His God and Father...


Abi no be wetin john 6:57 talk??




#New International Version (©1984)
Just as the living Father sent me and I live
because of the Father, so the one who feeds
on me will live because of me.

#New Living Translation (©2007)
I live because of the living Father who sent
me; in the same way, anyone who feeds on me
will live because of me.

#English Standard Version (©2001)
As the living Father sent me, and I live
because of the Father, so whoever feeds on
me, he also will live because of me.


There is 1 reason Jesus lives....

And u know the reason....

Like wise for us to live we too as humans must depend on Jesus.....

Yahweh-----Jesus-------man........


Now that's d chain bro..........

It seems man is part of the trinity....

I can't wake up 1 day and assume that we humans is Jesus Christ.....

That'll be madness!!!!!!!!!!!

guy you are too much,
salute you as a COMMANDER on nairaland religious forum.
Men, you are so hot!