Ubenedictus: easy! Now u are insulting.

im not, his perspective of d trinity is good and solid, if God has been a lover beford d word was created, if love is d essence of God and God is love, then d father must has a beloved from all eternity, simple logic drawn frm scriptures.
easy! Easy! My bible tells me that d strong must bear with d weak, those who have a better temper should bear with those who temper arent so good not insult them. I think the insultin attitude becos of his temper is unchristian.
Peace and divine blessing unto u.

so you believe he has a bad temper that fresky should bear?

That is the first thing you have said that i believe is a fact and true.

He has a bad temper that was given him by his inspiritor.

truthislight:

so you believe he has a bad temper that fresky should bear?

That is the first thing you have said that i believe is a fact and true.

He has a bad temper that was given him by his inspiritor.

temper is not about who inspired u, temper is subjective to ones temperament, it is controlled and hardly extinguished, sometimes it is a very good thing. And arguing religious matters is usually fraustrating. I totally understand.
Peace

Ubenedictus: temper is not about who inspired u, temper is subjective to ones temperament, it is controlled and hardly extinguished, sometimes it is a very good thing. And arguing religious matters is usually fraustrating. I totally understand.
Peace

aside this your trinitarian thing i am kind of appreciate your straightforwardness at times.

Why i said so is the fact that in the start of this thread you said that the bible is not you strength since it is not the only book to be considered as God's word.

Now, not every body will be that honest.

That is why i said i am begining to like your being straight.

Keep it up.
Peace

Dear truth is light it seems u are trying to make me 'feel good' if u were, mission successful.

truthislight:

aside this your trinitarian thing i am kind of appreciate your straightforwardness at times.

Why i said so is the fact that in the start of this thread you said that the bible is not you strength since it is not the only book to be considered as God's word.

Now, not every body will be that honest.

That is why i said i am begining to like your being straight.

Keep it up.

hey! Hey! Hey! Slow down d bible is an authority for me but it is not my only authority, it is d word of God so i can say 'it is my strenght'. Besides i think d reason u hate d 'trinity' is because u dont understand it or u can reconcile it with ur other perception of God. Whatever it is i do respect ur opinion even though i may not accept it or may totally reject it. I would also expect u to be straightforward.

peace

and with ur spirit.

I am sorry, ijawkid, that I said you are nuts. I owe you this apology for that.

Truthislight and Freksy, there is one little thing you guys are refusing to note: I started this thread. There was an objective for it. While that is no excuse to abuse any commenter on the thread, it is excellent reason for frustration when a commenter attempts to derail the thread.

I perceive that you find it very necessary to defame my character so that it will take away from the credibility of my submissions. Why take that angle? I have not been arrogant on this thread. If I have been insulting at all (and I fully accept that I was), it was in saying that ijawkid was nuts. Is that the thing you guys are going to build your rejection of my submissions about the Trinity on? That is low.

I am quite an orderly person, that is why disorder of any sort upsets me. It is my reason for insisting on a certain approach to the issue at hand. If that approach does not suit you, it is acceptable that you propose another and table cogent reasons for its adoption. If we agree on the superiority of your approach, then the thread can assume your direction. None of you bothered with doing such a thing. You started from the beginning of the thread to attack the concept of the trinity. I think you guys committed what they call the straw man fallacy.

You don't define a person's arguments for them and then proceed to attack the position you yourself defined. What kind of answers is the person supposed to make? I have finally, since none of you were able to adequately defend your positions, submitted my own positions and while one reads something other than what I wrote, another attacks my character, and yet another mocks my argument. Nobody makes a real effort to unfound my arguments. It's very frustrating, I assure you. And it is not nice.

It is not in order that I should regret being frustrated by such a thing. I do not. But I urge you to please leave my character out of this argument since you do not know me and your emotional attachment to your position on the Trinity is rendering your ability to discern my character from my writings null and void.

If you disagree with my position, just point out why and give me a chance, much like I did you, to answer the difficulty. Don't go throwing out everything I say simply because you don't like that I refuse to allow my thread to be derailed. That is not fair.

Ubenedictus: Dear truth is light it seems u are trying to make me 'feel good' if u were, mission successful. hey! Hey! Hey! Slow down d bible is an authority for me but it is not my only authority, it is d word of God so i can say 'it is my strenght'. Besides i think d reason u hate d 'trinity' is because u dont understand it or u can reconcile it with ur other perception of God. Whatever it is i do respect ur opinion even though i may not accept it or may totally reject it. I would also expect u to be straightforward.
and with ur spirit.

You are welcome.
Peace.

truthislight:
what has all this to do with trinity?
You guys act like a drowning man that tend to grab everything he can lay hands of to survived,

God is love and this is a quality that he have, is that the only quality tha God have?
What about Justice, power, wisdom?

The four living creature befor him depicted this qualities with there four faces.
Are we also going to use this or cardinal attribute of God to proof trinity?

I'm just reading through the thread again. I'd like to address some things you posited that I was too strung up to pay attention to earlier.

Per the bolded, Justice, Power and Wisdom are all characteristics or attributes or qualities of Love.

For Justice, 1 Cor 13:6
For Power, Song of Solomon 8:6-7
For Wisdom, 1 Cor 1:23,24

My argument for the Trinity is based on the Premise that God's basic Nature, that is His Own Identity and Moral Character is Love. His attributes are expressions of this basic Character, whether it is Justice, Mercy, Power, Wisdom, Majesty, Humility or any other.

Freksy:

A singular God exists in three (multiple) persons? No wonder it is a mystery!

Can He exist in three or two persons at the same time?

I know I pissed you off too. Sorry. But I'm going through the thread again to see things I overlooked.

Per the bolded statement, it may be necessary to define what it means to be God. I think that we all agree that that which is God is that from which everything that exists comes. That there is no power but power that it gives, that there is no knowledge but is derived from it, that there is no place hidden from its presence. In other words, God is that which is greater than the universe and all creation, spiritual and material and from which it all proceeds.

Anything that fits that description is God, I daresay. In that sense, Islam's Allah can claim Godhood among other religions. But how we can separate one claim from another to know which indeed is the true God is to compare the qualities assigned to them individually and see if there is coherence in those qualities.

However, "Godness", if I dare use that word, is a quality or an ability. The Concept of the Trinity says that there are three Beings that possess this quality of Godness, all three are all-powerful, all-merciful, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-wise etc etc and are one in essence.

Ihedinobi:

I know I pissed you off too. Sorry. But I'm going through the thread again to see things I overlooked.

Per the bolded statement, it may be necessary to define what it means to be God. I think that we all agree that that which is God is that from which everything that exists comes. That there is no power but power that it gives, that there is no knowledge but is derived from it, that there is no place hidden from its presence. In other words, God is that which is greater than the universe and all creation, spiritual and material and from which it all proceeds.

Anything that fits that description is God, I daresay. In that sense, Islam's Allah can claim Godhood among other religions. But how we can separate one claim from another to know which indeed is the true God is to compare the qualities assigned to them individually and see if there is coherence in those qualities.

However, "Godness", if I dare use that word, is a quality or an ability. The Concept of the Trinity says that there are three Beings that possess this quality of Godness, all three are all-powerful, all-merciful, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-wise etc etc and are one in essence.

a little addition 'Godness' 'divinity' is not just a quality it is a nature.
Peace

@ijawkid, allow me, if you may, to address some of your arguments, please.

ijawkid:

Ok definition....

God
[god]

-n.
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6. an image of a deity; an idol.
7. any deified person or object.


Those are all definitions of GOD or a GOD....

Not all the definitions are relevant to the subject under study. (6), for instance, I believe you would not accept in your position. The Concept of the Trinity accepts only (1) as for its arguments.

The bible itself also gave various definitions of that word ""GOD"

From the bible the word GOD can mean,a powerful king or ruler or JUDGE...it could also represent any powerful spirit creature,both angels ,Jesus and even Yahweh......even satan too and all his demons....

This offers a little problem. While the word "god" was applied to men as in Psalm 82 and to Satan by Jesus Himself, there is little question to Whom the Bible refers when it simply says "God". Contextually, this is borne out. When read in context, it becomes quite clear to whom the word God refers in any particular rendering and even why it is so used there. In calling Satan the god of this world, for instance, Jesus seemed to have been consenting to a legal position more than a moral one. What I mean is that Jesus was according Satan the respect that was due him in his position of power over the world. This position was Adam's by right but he'd given it to Satan when he disobeyed God. And since Jesus had not gone to the Cross at the time He was speaking, it was still Satan's position as of right. He didn't mean that Satan was Supreme Being, He meant that Satan was the one standing before the Supreme Being with respect to the world. So he was god of this world.

Now back to my question......

How many GODS were mentioned there in JOHN 1:1....

In the beginning was the word,and the word was with GOD(1st GOD) and the word. Who was with GOD( 1st GOD) was GOD(2nd GOD) ..........

The problem here is how to discern that the verse spoke of two Gods and not one.

How many GODS do we worship??.....

I knw u aint no polytheist so I will wanna hear ur reply as regards john 1:1........

I jus wanna let u know why GOD isn't anybody's name and why context should help us decipher who really is the supreme being we are referring to.......

I agree that God is not a personal name. See my response to Freksy. However, as far as the Bible is concerned, there is just One to Whom it refers when it is used without qualification or else our worship would be confused.

Also compare john 1:1 and 1 corinthians 8:5 $ 6 and tell me which GOD in john 1:1 is the supreme GOD that deserves our exclusive devotion and by.......


##5 For although there may be so-called gods in
heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many
“gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is
one God, the Father, from whom are all things
and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus
Christ, through whom are all things and through
whom we exist.


The only. One GOD as mentioned by paul there is associated with the Father from whom all things came...

I keep wondering why Jesus shuldnt be called GOD there in that verse,rather he was called Lord through whom all things came...

I wonder if the real question is not why a mere Man or something less than God is put on a level with the Almighty God. Why does Paul not just say, "for us there is
one God, the Father, from whom are all things
and for whom we exist"? Why go on to add Jesus Christ, one below God as your position holds? Naming Him along with the Father in that instance put Jesus Christ on a level with the Father, acknowledging that He deserved the same honor that was due the Father.

But more importantly,concentrate on that john 1:1 and tell me how many GODs are there.....

Thank u!!!!

I believe that I have addressed this.

Ubenedictus: a little addition 'Godness' 'divinity' is not just a quality it is a nature.
Peace

Quite right. I just thought it'd be clearer using the word "quality". "Godness" is indeed a Nature much like Love is.

ijawkid:

How can Jesus be with himself??is it necessary??

How can u be with your self??

John calls Jesus d image of the invincible GOD........

John is and was talking about 2 distinct individuals........


You cannot see Yahweh....no one can see the almighty @ anytime and live.....

For the Fact people saw Jesus only shows he isn't d same with Yahweh...........

Jesus was Gods representative and prophet and servant.......

Yahweh and Jesus are 2 different individuals.......

Jesus sef talk am oooooooo.....

Per the bolded, Jesus did say to Philip that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father as well (John 14:8-10).

As for Jesus being Yahweh's representative, servant and prophet, the concept of the Trinity does not dispute this. It only says that Jesus was also more than these.

Ihedinobi:

Per the bolded, Jesus did say to Philip that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father as well (John 14:8-10).

As for Jesus being Yahweh's representative, servant and prophet, the concept of the Trinity does not dispute this. It only says that Jesus was also more than these.

Ofcus u actually knw what Jesus meant when he said if we've seen him.we've seen the Father.......

Meaning he reflects his Fathers qualities....

After all it was still d same Jesus who said no one has seen the Father......

The Father is a spirit....abi??john 4:24....

Except Jesus was lying @ d same time.....


Jesus reflected his Fathers qualities perfectly having learnt so much from HIM....

JOHN 7;16 $ 18....

Just as pharoah didn't have to see Yahweh in order to know who he was dealing with,and of which moses was like GOD to pharoah so also is d same with when Jesus said, ""if u've seen me u've seen the Father""

Obviously the Father was and is a spirit...

How could the disciples have seen him.....

ijawkid:

Ofcus u actually knw what Jesus meant when he said if we've seen him.we've seen the Father.......

Meaning he reflects his Fathers qualities....

After all it was still d same Jesus who said no one has seen the Father......

The Father is a spirit....abi??john 4:24....

Except Jesus was lying @ d same time.....


Jesus reflected his Fathers qualities perfectly having learnt so much from HIM....

JOHN 7;16 $ 18....

Just as pharoah didn't have to see Yahweh in order to know who he was dealing with,and of which moses was like GOD to pharoah so also is d same with when Jesus said, ""if u've seen me u've seen the Father""

Obviously the Father was and is a spirit...

How could the disciples have seen him.....

On the matter of Jesus's perfect reflection of His Father's qualities we are agreed. What we may not be in agreement about is that this reflection was because He is a perfect man and the fact that there is more to Jesus's perfect humanity. The concept of the Trinity holds that this "more" is His Godhood. The concept says that Jesus is both perfectly man and perfectly God. Throughout His humanity, including now that He is in Heaven at the Right Hand of Majesty, He operates as a man, not as God. It is as Man that He came, as Man that He died, as Man that He was raised from the dead and as Man that He ascended into Heaven and was given this place of authority over all the works of God's Hands. So, if you say, "if Jesus is Almighty God why something perfectly normal to a human being, albeit a perfect one?" you are still not arguing effectively against His Godhood.

To become Man, Jesus would have to, and did in fact, limit His Godhood. He still does today. And He will until He has defeated all of God's enemies and pretenders to God's Throne. When that is done, then, like the Bible says, He will give the Kingdom back to God (1 Cor 15:24,25).

However, His humanity may not be in question. His Deity certainly is. And the submission of the concept of the Trinity is that Jesus is Almighty God, like His Father is, and like the Holy Spirit is. He laid down His Godhood to become Man in order to redeem man back to God and bring things back on track. Please, don't read "laid down" as "extinguished" or "removed like garments", "laid down" is more like "willingly chose to not exercise His powers as Almighty God" for the time that He works to redeem all things back to God. But He is God no less for all that.

^^ As for the Father being a Spirit, well, I'm sure He is. But Jesus's words were "God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality)" (John 4:24 AMP). Earlier in that conversation with the Samaritan woman, He'd been talking about the Father, but He ended the discourse with "God is a Spirit..." In my thinking, that means that all of the Godhead is a Spirit. Jesus as God is a Spirit too as the Father and The Holy Spirit are. I feel that the problem here is possibly that you are weighing Jesus entirely on the scales of His humanity. Once you try to explain more than His humanity, problems come up because then, either it is the Trinity or it is polytheism.

As for no man ever having seen God, there were Abraham (Gen 17:1, 18:1-33 to mention just two passages), Isaac (Gen 26:2,24), Jacob (Gen 32:24-30), Moses (Ex 33:12-23) to whom Almighty God appeared. My point is not to prove that Jesus lied, far be it from me! It is to say that there is more to what He said than you might perceive.

My submission is that no man had ever seen God simply because the Stark Reality of God is far out of man's ability to grasp and would totally overpower him. So everytime God comes to us, and from creation till date He has been coming, He has to come in a reality that we can see and relate to without being destroyed. This was one reason that we could discern Jesus Christ. He did not come as God, but as Man. To use very weak words, He came to us as God clothed in humanity. So that Jesus was seen did not make Him not God, it just made Him God coming to us in a reality that we could relate to. Just like Almighty God had always done, if I might add.

Ihedinobi:

Quite right. I just thought it'd be clearer using the word "quality". "Godness" is indeed a Nature much like Love is.

i totally get ur point.

Ihedinobi:

On the matter of Jesus's perfect reflection of His Father's qualities we are agreed. What we may not be in agreement about is that this reflection was because He is a perfect man and the fact that there is more to Jesus's perfect humanity. The concept of the Trinity holds that this "more" is His Godhood. The concept says that Jesus is both perfectly man and perfectly God. Throughout His humanity, including now that He is in Heaven at the Right Hand of Majesty, He operates as a man, not as God. It is as Man that He came, as Man that He died, as Man that He was raised from the dead and as Man that He ascended into Heaven and was given this place of authority over all the works of God's Hands. So, if you say, "if Jesus is Almighty God why something perfectly normal to a human being, albeit a perfect one?" you are still not arguing effectively against His Godhood.

To become Man, Jesus would have to, and did in fact, limit His Godhood. He still does today. And He will until He has defeated all of God's enemies and pretenders to God's Throne. When that is done, then, like the Bible says, He will give the Kingdom back to God (1 Cor 15:24,25).

However, His humanity may not be in question. His Deity certainly is. And the submission of the concept of the Trinity is that Jesus is Almighty God, like His Father is, and like the Holy Spirit is. He laid down His Godhood to become Man in order to redeem man back to God and bring things back on track. Please, don't read "laid down" as "extinguished" or "removed like garments", "laid down" is more like "willingly chose to not exercise His powers as Almighty God" for the time that He works to redeem all things back to God. But He is God no less for all that.

If he laid down his Godhood to be man,then it simply means he aint Yahweh or the almighty....

The almighty doesn't do that.......

The trinity says Jesus is both GOD and MAn @ the same time,but what we've read from the bible says otherwise......

Jesus was a perfect man on earth.....

He was fully a perfect man......

Jesus didn't just choose to abandon his Godhood,he was infact running an errand for some1 higher than him and was a human on earth(perfect human).......
he was flesh and blood on earth

If not he wouldn't die nor have forgotten when the end will come.......

That's why he was called the son of man........

That phrase'""son of man"" contradicts whatever doctrine that says Jesus was fully the almighty and man @ d same time.......

This mistake and contradictions many have made is what has made d trinity dogma more spurious than ever........

I want u to read more about the kenotic doctrine and compare it with the trinity doctrine and then finally come back to the bible and see how they all contradict each other......

A lil question...:: would u have said Jesus was fully GOD and MAN @ d same time when he was 2 years old......??

Ihedinobi: ^^ As for the Father being a Spirit, well, I'm sure He is. But Jesus's words were "God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality)" (John 4:24 AMP). Earlier in that conversation with the Samaritan woman, He'd been talking about the Father, but He ended the discourse with "God is a Spirit..." In my thinking, that means that all of the Godhead is a Spirit. Jesus as God is a Spirit too as the Father and The Holy Spirit are. I feel that the problem here is possibly that you are weighing Jesus entirely on the scales of His humanity. Once you try to explain more than His humanity, problems come up because then, either it is the Trinity or it is polytheism.

As for no man ever having seen God, there were Abraham (Gen 17:1, 18:1-33 to mention just two passages), Isaac (Gen 26:2,24), Jacob (Gen 32:24-30), Moses (Ex 33:12-23) to whom Almighty God appeared. My point is not to prove that Jesus lied, far be it from me! It is to say that there is more to what He said than you might perceive.

My submission is that no man had ever seen God simply because the Stark Reality of God is far out of man's ability to grasp and would totally overpower him. So everytime God comes to us, and from creation till date He has been coming, He has to come in a reality that we can see and relate to without being destroyed. This was one reason that we could discern Jesus Christ. He did not come as God, but as Man. To use very weak words, He came to us as God clothed in humanity. So that Jesus was seen did not make Him not God, it just made Him God coming to us in a reality that we could relate to. Just like Almighty God had always done, if I might add.

I thank u for using ""IN MY THINKING"" to give the explanations u just gave....

But please my bro we dnt know it all and I appreciate ur sincererity......

If Jesus could open his mouth and remind his listeners who were already Jews that GOD is a spirit then it really did show and was an evidence that Jesus wasn't the GOD he was talking about......that's 1 clear evidence.....

The jews already from d scriptures knew no one can see God,physically(exodus 33:18-20).....they knew GOD was and is a spirit.....

So none would have concluded that Jesus was d almighty.....(They knew d scriptures and Jesus even helped them see d more that GOD is a spirit)

Only his messengers,prophets,angels and representatives were seen and felt.....

Example :::angels back then culd materialize and be felt,and they ran errands for Yahweh....

In Jesus's case its even more glaring why he wasn't fully GOD on earth...why??
He was born as a child with flesh and blood...
That fully contradicts all ""fully GOD fully man theory""

If Jesus did materialize straight from d heavens then ur analogy can hold...



But ofcus Jesus was begotten by mary and he lived like human for 33 and a half years.....

That is why he is called the son of man....

Not even any angel in heaven was called that way....

Not even Yahweh can be called that....

No reason what so ever would waRrant Yahweh to be physical to men.....its an impossibility

Yahweh himself did say ""NO one can see HIM"" right??those words never change bro.......

And if u agree that Jesus is a spirit in heaven just like the Father and the holy spirit then I must say u also agree that Jesus isn't with flesh in heaven as well.........

So many things Jesus said and did that goes against the doctrine of him being both fully man and GOD......

We have to either choose 1 and leave d other....

They are not compatible.......

ijawkid:

If he laid down his Godhood to be man,then it simply means he aint Yahweh or the almighty....

The almighty doesn't do that.......

Why do you say this? Why does the Almighty not do this?

The trinity says Jesus is both GOD and MAn @ the same time,but what we've read from the bible says otherwise......

How so?

Jesus was a perfect man on earth.....

He was fully a perfect man......

No disagreements here.

Jesus didn't just choose to abandon his Godhood,he was infact running an errand for some1 higher than him and was a human on earth(perfect human).......
he was flesh and blood on earth

I imagine that when you say "abandon", you actually mean what I said by "laying down". If you do, show your statement to be true. As to the rest, we are not in disagreement.

If not he wouldn't die nor have forgotten when the end will come.......

Of course, because His humanity was a separate thing from His Godhood, when He spoke or acted in His humanity, He was not employing any of His God-abilities. As a Man He subjected Himself to the limitations of man. The message of the Gospel is that He didn't have to but He chose to in order to bring us to salvation.

That's why he was called the son of man........

That phrase'""son of man"" contradicts whatever doctrine that says Jesus was fully the almighty and man @ d same time.......

How does it do so? And if "son of man" made Him fully human, what did "Son of God" make Him?

This mistake and contradictions many have made is what has made d trinity dogma more spurious than ever........

I want u to read more about the kenotic doctrine and compare it with the trinity doctrine and then finally come back to the bible and see how they all contradict each other......

What is the kenotic doctrine?
I haven't gone outside the Bible in addressing the doctrine of the Trinity, have I?

A lil question...:: would u have said Jesus was fully GOD and MAN @ d same time when he was 2 years old......??

I would.

ijawkid:

I thank u for using ""IN MY THINKING"" to give the explanations u just gave....

But please my bro we dnt know it all and I appreciate ur sincererity......

You could say that that phrase was added to test your reaction. That is not strictly true though. I have been accused of arrogance on this thread because I stood firm on what I know to be true. Now you call me sincere because I say "in my thinking" which you read to mean that I am not sure. I am actually quite sure of what I am saying. I have not seen any of you who are against the Trinity holding your views as your own opinion. You insist that your position is the correct one and every position for the Trinity is unBiblical.
It is no humility, friend, to deny what you know.

If Jesus could open his mouth and remind his listeners who were already Jews that GOD is a spirit then it really did show and was an evidence that Jesus wasn't the GOD he was talking about......that's 1 clear evidence.....

In the light of my submissions, this evidence is inadmissible because I have explained how Jesus could be the same God He was speaking of. You need to show that this explanation is unacceptable and provide a more acceptable one. And this statement of yours does not do either.

The jews already from d scriptures knew no one can see God,physically(exodus 33:18-20).....they knew GOD was and is a spirit.....

So none would have concluded that Jesus was d almighty.....(They knew d scriptures and Jesus even helped them see d more that GOD is a spirit)

Only his messengers,prophets,angels and representatives were seen and felt.....

See my comment above.

Example :::angels back then culd materialize and be felt,and they ran errands for Yahweh....

I would rather not get into this. But if you think that this helps your case, go on and define angels as to their nature and purpose as revealed in the Scriptures and show how they help to establish that Jesus's materialization proved that He is not Almighty God.

In Jesus's case its even more glaring why he wasn't fully GOD on earth...why??
He was born as a child with flesh and blood...
That fully contradicts all ""fully GOD fully man theory""

I still cannot see how it does. John 1 seems to stand on the fact that Almighty God was the One Who put on flesh and blood and was rejected by flesh and blood because He was not recognizable to them as God.

If Jesus did materialize straight from d heavens then ur analogy can hold...

Sorry, I don't know what analogy you are refering to.

But ofcus Jesus was begotten by mary and he lived like human for 33 and a half years.....

That is why he is called the son of man....

Not even any angel in heaven was called that way....

We don't have an argument here.

Not even Yahweh can be called that....

Why? And who is Yahweh? Is it the same Person Who spoke to Moses in Mount Horeb saying that His Name is I AM?

No reason what so ever would waRrant Yahweh to be physical to men.....its an impossibility

An impossibility to whom? An Omnipotent Being? or someone else?

As for no reason warranting His becoming physical, perhaps I should tell you that just like people holding the same position as you have been insisting that we are holding Roman Catholic heresies in the concept of the Trinity, I could say to you that you are holding Muslim heresies in insisting that God cannot become flesh. And just like holding the Trinity means that we hold other Roman Catholic doctrines as well, holding that God is one Single Being means that you hold other Islamist positions as well including jihad.

See my point?

However, the question remains, in addition to the first, why can God not choose to become flesh and blood?

Yahweh himself did say ""NO one can see HIM"" right??those words never change bro.......

My position is the same.

And if u agree that Jesus is a spirit in heaven just like the Father and the holy spirit then I must say u also agree that Jesus isn't with flesh in heaven as well.........

What do you mean, please?

So many things Jesus said and did that goes against the doctrine of him being both fully man and GOD......

Please cite them, if you please.

We have to either choose 1 and leave d other....

They are not compatible.......

How are they not? If indeed they are, please explain to me what the Gospel is.

Ihedinobi:

Why do you say this? Why does the Almighty not do this?



How so?



No disagreements here.



I imagine that when you say "abandon", you actually mean what I said by "laying down". If you do, show your statement to be true. As to the rest, we are not in disagreement.



Of course, because His humanity was a separate thing from His Godhood, when He spoke or acted in His humanity, He was not employing any of His God-abilities. As a Man He subjected Himself to the limitations of man. The message of the Gospel is that He didn't have to but He chose to in order to bring us to salvation.



How does it do so? And if "son of man" made Him fully human, what did "Son of God" make Him?



What is the kenotic doctrine?
I haven't gone outside the Bible in addressing the doctrine of the Trinity, have I?



I would.

The ""kenotic"" doctrine is just a term like trinity used by trinity adherents to describe Jesus emptying his GODhood to live on earth....that's what it says.....

And so when verses are read where Jesus worshipped the Father,or when he said he don't know when the end will come but only the Father,or when he said only the Father is good ,many including u say its because he was just living within the boundaries of his humanity......

But @ d same time the trinity dogma says Jesus while on earth was fully man and fully GOD....how do u reconcile those 2 concepts??

That's why I said that those 2 concepts are totally contradictory.....

I don't know if ur getting my point??


Jesus being refferd to as the son of GOD simply shows and means he is the son of GOD......like we and all d angels are(I'm not saying we or the angels are equal to JESUS)

That word ""son of GOD"" does not in anyway mean that Jesus was fully GOD here on earth........

Then he won't have to be called SON of MAN....
Jesus was flesh and blood.....he was fully human and not fully GOD....

If Jesus still had to be fully GOD here on earth then his death and sacrifice would have to be invalid....

That's why I said its either we choose 1 or leave the other.....

And may I please add this ,that even as a human Jesus knew quite well were he came from and he knew about what he was b4 descending.....

If Jesus culd say that only the Father knew when d end will come,and neither him nor the angels knew,he was simply just saying the truth..............

He didn't know!!!!!!!!!!.....@ that point in time only Yahweh knew.....if Jesus was fully GOD @ that particular time no reason what so ever wuld make Jesus not know when d end will come........except if he suffered from memory loss or amnesia.......

Ihedinobi:

You could say that that phrase was added to test your reaction. That is not strictly true though. I have been accused of arrogance on this thread because I stood firm on what I know to be true. Now you call me sincere because I say "in my thinking" which you read to mean that I am not sure. I am actually quite sure of what I am saying. I have not seen any of you who are against the Trinity holding your views as your own opinion. You insist that your position is the correct one and every position for the Trinity is unBiblical.
It is no humility, friend, to deny what you know.



In the light of my submissions, this evidence is inadmissible because I have explained how Jesus could be the same God He was speaking of. You need to show that this explanation is unacceptable and provide a more acceptable one. And this statement of yours does not do either.



See my comment above.



I would rather not get into this. But if you think that this helps your case, go on and define angels as to their nature and purpose as revealed in the Scriptures and show how they help to establish that Jesus's materialization proved that He is not Almighty God.



I still cannot see how it does. John 1 seems to stand on the fact that Almighty God was the One Who put on flesh and blood and was rejected by flesh and blood because He was not recognizable to them as God.



Sorry, I don't know what analogy you are refering to.



We don't have an argument here.



Why? And who is Yahweh? Is it the same Person Who spoke to Moses in Mount Horeb saying that His Name is I AM?



An impossibility to whom? An Omnipotent Being? or someone else?

As for no reason warranting His becoming physical, perhaps I should tell you that just like people holding the same position as you have been insisting that we are holding Roman Catholic heresies in the concept of the Trinity, I could say to you that you are holding Muslim heresies in insisting that God cannot become flesh. And just like holding the Trinity means that we hold other Roman Catholic doctrines as well, holding that God is one Single Being means that you hold other Islamist positions as well including jihad.

See my point?

However, the question remains, in addition to the first, why can God not choose to become flesh and blood?



My position is the same.



What do you mean, please?



Please cite them, if you please.



How are they not? If indeed they are, please explain to me what the Gospel is.

U asked why GOD can't be flesh and blood??

Because he is the supreme ruler and GOD and cannot be seen......

Yahweh told moses this @ exodus 33:18-20...



The soveriegn LORD does not need to come in flesh and blood.....

He has got servants and messangers who can do that.........

And besides that, one of Jesus's aim was to be killed $ sacrificed on our behalf....not so??

Jesus died.....not so??

The almighty GOD can and does not die.......
Not for any reason

I hope I'm clear??

The almighty simply because he wants to redeem mankind from sin and death does not need to come and die for us.....GOD cannot die for any reason(not even if he decides to be flesh and blood,of which he wont)....if that happens then he has to stop being GOD.....it goes against who Yahweh is...........

For Jesus to had died and was ressurected is a proof that he isn't the Father........

No matter how u might try to support ur stance with the ""LOVE theory"" it won't and can't change who Yahweh is suppose to be.....

Yahweh is omnipotent and all powerful but that doesn't mean he isn't organized,nor will he go against what HE is...........

Like Jesus rightly said ""he has come to do his Fathers will not his own will"".......

Yahweh sent Jesus to carry out that job and Jesus obediently did all what he was told...........

Its really hard for me to be able to highlight a point of yours and deliberate on it since I'm using my phone.......

But I'll keep tryin as much as I can to keep up this discussion.............

My final points are::::::


Jesus being fully GOD and fully man while on earth isn't compatible with d bible......

I'll arrange my write up to show how angels did materialize to deliver messages from Yahweh to d isrealites ........

My dear bro ihedinobi...

This is my lil research on how angels who did materialize in the past to pass on Gods message were thought by servants of old to be GOD himself.....rather they were spokesmen for GOD......

U can go through it........this will also help u see why Jesus can't be the Father or be fully GOD and man @ d same time....it will clarify issues on why when Jesus made statements like""if u've seen me u've seen the Father"" he wasn't implying he was the father........



Has Anyone Seen God?
THE renowned patriarch Abraham, who lived more than 1,900 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, was so warmly viewed by our Creator that he was called “God’s friend.” (James 2:23, ) If anyone would be given the privilege of seeing God, surely Abraham would be that person. Well, on a certain occasion, three visitors came to him with a divine message. Abraham addressed one of them as YAHWEH. Does this mean that Abraham actually saw God?
This account is found at Genesis 18:1-3. There we read: “YAHWEH appeared to him among the big trees of Mamre, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. Then he said: ‘Yahweh, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.’”
Later, when Abraham and his three visitors were viewing Sodom from an elevated location, two left to visit the city. Verse 22 then says: “But as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.” It would appear from this that God was present with Abraham in a materialized fleshly body. This is what some persons contend who believe that God and Jesus Christ are one and the same person.
Regarding Genesis 18:3, Bible scholar Melancthon W. Jacobus wrote: “Here God appears for the first time on record as man among men, to show the reality of His Being, and of His affinity with men, and by this typical act to assure the patriarch of the Divine communion and fellowship.” Those having this point of view could conclude that Abraham actually saw GOD with his physical eyes and that persons who saw Jesus Christ also saw God. But is this conclusion in harmony with the Bible?
What Jesus Said
Instead of announcing that he was God in the flesh, Jesus Christ said: “I am God’s Son.” (John 10:36) As Yahweh’s perfect Representative, Jesus also said: “I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 5:30) Towards the death of Christ, he prayed to the great Creator in the heavens, addressing him as “My God, my God.” (Matthew 27:46) After his resurrection, Jesus told Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” (John 20:1, 17) Since Jesus Christ was not God incarnate, no one who saw Jesus could say that he had thus seen God.
John, the apostle whom Jesus especially loved, confirmed the fact that the apostles were not seeing God when they looked at Jesus. Under inspiration John said: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) Whom, then, did Abraham see? The experience of Moses helps us to find the answer.
How Moses Saw God
Moses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read: “‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’”
What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state: “And GOD said further: ‘Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.’”
In harmony with what Yahweh told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God “face to face,” as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Yahweh. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw. Speaking with God “face to face” indicates a two-way conversation. Similarly, an individual can carry on a two-way conversation by telephone without seeing the other person.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read: “He went on to say: ‘Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Yahweh, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Yahweh is what he beholds.’” In what sense did Moses behold “the appearance of Yahweh”?
Moses beheld “the appearance of Yahweh” when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written: “They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity.” But how did Moses and the other men get to “see the God of Israel,” since God had told him, “No man may see me and yet live”? Verse 11 explains, for it says: “He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank.” So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision.
Angelic Representatives
It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Yahweh has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “why ,then,was the law given?it was given alongside the promise to show people their sins.but the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.God gave his law through angels to moses,who was the mediator between God and the people(new living translation).”—Galatians 3:19.
That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “He was in the assembly in the desert ,with the angel who spoke to him on mount Sinai,and with our fathers;and he received living words to pass on to us”(NIV). That angel was the personal spokesman for Yahweh, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Yahweh’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: “and the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush;and he looked,and ,behold,the bush burned with fire,and the bush was not consumed.” Verse 4 says: “And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see,God called unto him out of the midst of the bush,and said,moses,moses.And he said Here I am.” In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: “Moreover he said,I am the God of thy father,the God of Abraham,the GOD of Isaac and the GOD of Jacob.And moses hid his face;for he was afraid to look upon God.” So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Yahweh himself.—Exodus 4:10.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Yahwehs angel.” There we read: “Later yahweh’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “God’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were YAHWEH himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that GOD faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, LORD. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
“No Man Has Seen God”
Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Yahweh himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “the LORD appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.
Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Yahweh reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.
Those are examples of how Yahweh used his spirit messangers to deliver timely utterances back then……..
They spoke exactly what Yahweh wanted them to say,which is of the same case with Jesus…..

Jesus said nothing out of his own originality…what ever the Father told him to say is what he said @ every given point in time……

@Ijawkid

guy, you did not include Exodus 23:20-22

this really, does explain what happened from Abraham to moses time with them calling the angel Yahweh.

Help one to understand why Jesus said no man has ever seen God/Yahweh.
Peace

You made three very large comments and I will answer them. But to do so, I'll have to condense them into a number of summarized points. I also surf with my phone, so dealing with that will take a little time. You'll have my answer before the end of the day.

Cheers.

I can't quote your comments because I surf with my phone and it has limited text entry. I hope you can pardon that.

I think that your positions are:

¤ that it is beneath Almighty God to put on humanity and suffer the ignobility of death, much less the death of the Cross, to redeem mankind

¤ that Jesus could not have been Almighty God because He was seen physically and He had said that no man had ever seen God

¤ that it is absurd to think that Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God, that it does not logically follow because if He was both, He would have had to exercise His Deity.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about these positions. They are what I understand your arguments to be.

I will first of all, again, explain why I chose the Love perspective. I am doing so because you and others have cast aspersion on it a number of times.

Why The Love Perspective

1 John 4:18 says that God is Love. The whole letter keeps saying that the fundamental Identity of God is Love and everything deriving from Him, including His children, are characterized by Love. The letter intimates the absurdity of a claim upon God's paternity by anyone who walks contrary to Love. The letter does not stand alone. Paul, in letters to the Romans and Corinthians keeps characterizing Christianity by Love. In Romans, he said, "Love is the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:10); in 1 Cor 13, Love is described with attributes quite resembling the other fruits of the Spirit in Gal 5:22,23. Peter says to love as brethren in 1 Pet 3:8. Jesus Himself says in John 13:35, "by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

The mark of Christianity is Love. Everything Christian is defined by Love. If God is not known as Love, God is not known at all. Only by knowing Love can we speak of knowing God. This is the crux of Christianity. I really doubt that you disagree with this. If this is true, then I have not just brought a perspective to this discussion, I have brought THE perspective to this discussion. The conclusion of this debate under the guiding Theme of Love should settle the matter forever. Any rehashing of the matter can only be concluded by appealing to God's Nature of Love yet again.

That is why the perspective of Love.


I will attend to your arguments now.

¤ that it is beneath Almighty God to put on humanity and suffer the ignobility of death, much less the death of the Cross, to redeem mankind

I agree. It is a tremendous thing that the Almighty should do so. If He had chosen not to do so, He would have been well within His rights as God. But He would then have negated His Moral Character as Love. Then He would have proved to be less than God.
Jesus Himself gave the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 to show that Love takes responsibility for the beloved's misfortune to help them in it. If that is one of Love's attributes, then it is also one of God's attributes. And though it would be beneath God's Majesty to take on humanity and limit Himself to the smallness and ignobility of man, His Nature of Love would not just allow Him to do it but actually make Him do it to redeem man from his failure.

¤ that Jesus could not have been Almighty God because He was seen physically and He had said that no man had ever seen God

This one occasioned the research that you did to produce the very long comment in your last post.

It's not really a difficult argument to counter, it's just that it may prove fruitless to bother countering it. But there benefit of the doubt to be given, is there not?

I have so many answers to this, but I will give just one. I don't know if it is the most effective one, since I think any of the others should do nicely as well. But I pick this one, because hopefully it will limit the fallout of chasing our tail just to prove each other wrong.

My answer here is that Jesus's humanity is the screen, if you will, for His Deity. To see His Deity you have to strip off His Humanity. Two Scriptures should serve to show this: 1 Tim 3:16
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh..."

and John 1:10
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not"

God is a Reality that man cannot be exposed to without some screening to prevent peril to him. I agree with this. This is one reason that Jesus was not discernible as God. The God-Nature was wearing the man-nature so it was not available to human sight or discernment.

(...continuing in next post...)

(...continuing from last post...)

¤ that it is absurd to think that Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God, that it does not logically follow because if He was both, He would have had to exercise His Deity.

My answer to this is that God made man in His Own Image (Gen 1:27. Therefore, the involvement in God becoming man is essentially a reduction of ability to the point that man as a creature functions normally. If this is so, then that Man Jesus could not have any problems operating fully as Man and fully as God at the same time since one nature is derived from the other such that it is only a limited form of that other.

For instance, man can die, but God cannot. But can a man who possesses the God-Nature die? I say yes. Because, the God-Nature presents him with power over death if he wishes to exercise it while the man-nature affords him weakness to death if he wishes to exercise that as well. It becomes a question of choice rather than ability. Jesus said as much in John 10:17,18
"...I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

The principle in this instance answers for every other issue of how He could be both God and Man.


I think that's everything. Let me know if I missed anything. Or if I handled anything incorrectly.

Ihedinobi: (...continuing from last post...)



My answer to this is that God made man in His Own Image (Gen 1:27. Therefore, the involvement in God becoming man is essentially a reduction of ability to the point that man as a creature functions normally. If this is so, then that Man Jesus could not have any problems operating fully as Man and fully as God at the same time since one nature is derived from the other such that it is only a limited form of that other.

For instance, man can die, but God cannot. But can a man who possesses the God-Nature die? I say yes. Because, the God-Nature presents him with power over death if he wishes to exercise it while the man-nature affords him weakness to death if he wishes to exercise that as well. It becomes a question of choice rather than ability. Jesus said as much in John 10:17,18
"...I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

The principle in this instance answers for every other issue of how He could be both God and Man.


I think that's everything. Let me know if I missed anything. Or if I handled anything incorrectly.

So in all ur trying to prove to me that Yahweh can die(not immortal) and infact did die??

do a re-thinking bro.....it shuldnt get to this....

The trinity shuldnt take us to this level.......

Like I said and I've always said,Jesus indeed was bestowed with power from a higher source(Yahweh).......

Jesus choosing to lay down his life or take it does not prove d fact that he is BOTH fully man and GOD....

It only proved he was a free moral agent who could make his own personal decisions,not been goaded.....

Jesus chose to die for mankind in obedience to his Fathers will........

After all ,when he died,3days later it was his Father who ressurected him..........


Jesus got a reward for his obedience.....

He took his life and he got it back from the source of life Yahweh..
John 6:57

New International
Version (NIV)
57 Just as the living
Father sent me and I
live because of the
Father, so the one
who feeds on me will
live because of me.
.....

Jesus was rewarded with immortality in that he was never to taste death again,but annointed and elevated to a lofty position by Yahweh.....he is now sitting @ d right hand of Yahweh until all his enemies are put under his feet........

Let's also read hebrews 5:4-10 to see d results of Jesus being obedient and willing to take his life so as to gain it back...

4 And no one takes this
honor on himself, but he receives it when
called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on
himself the glory of becoming a high priest.
But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[a]
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek. ”[b]
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he
offered up prayers and petitions with fervent
cries and tears to the one who could save him
from death, and he was heard because of his
reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he
learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the
source of eternal salvation for all who obey
him 10 and was designated by God to be high
priest in the order of Melchizedek....

Its all Yahwehs doing........

Let's re-consider the whole of john 10:17 $ 18 u quoted....

New International Version (NIV)
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay
down my life —only to take it up again. 18 No
one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my
own accord. I have authority to lay it down and
authority to take it up again. This command I
received from my Father.”

....The Father loved Jesus for his willingness and obedience to die according to Yahwehs arrangement to save mankind......

Jesus ofcus accepted d divine will to come and die willingly .....

Meaning that though he layed down his life out of his own initiative,he was @ d same time doing his Fathers will and not his own will.........
.



Hebrews 10:7 tells us that.....
New International Version (NIV)
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about
me in the scroll —
I have come to do your will, my God.’”....


Those words found @ john 10:17 $ 18 does nt in anyway prove that Jesus is both GOD and man,it only shows how obedient Jesus was and the reward he was to attain and which he did attain........

Back to our main point::::::

The Almighty cannot and does not die and no one,I repeat no one has ever seen HIM...........


Thanks,......

@ ihedinobi my bro....

U can look up john 10:18 from these other 2 translations....

##Weymouth New Testament
No one is taking it away from me, but I myself
am laying it down. I am authorized to lay it
down, and I am authorized to receive it back
again. This is the command I received from my
Father."


##Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“No man takes it from me; I am laying it down
of my own will, for I am authorized to lay it
down, and I am authorized to receive it again;
this commandment I have received from my
Father.”
....

Jesus willingly did surrender himself to do Yahwehs will by dying,and then he also had d power to receive it.(Reward for his obedience)........

Let me requote hebrews 5:7-9

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had
offered up prayers and supplications with
strong crying and tears unto HIM that was ABLE
to save him from DEATH, and was heard in that
he FEARED;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he
OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered;
9 And being MADE PERFECT, he became the
author of eternal salvation unto all them that
obey him;


Those scriptures are lucid ........

They show how Jesus's obedience bought him all the priviledges and power he has being bestowed with.....

Thank u bro.....

Its like ur from rivers state.....

ijawkid:


So in all ur trying to prove to me that Yahweh can die(not immortal) and infact did die??

do a re-thinking bro.....it shuldnt get to this....

The trinity shuldnt take us to this level.......

Like I said and I've always said,Jesus indeed was bestowed with power from a higher source(Yahweh).......

Jesus choosing to lay down his life or take it does not prove d fact that he is BOTH fully man and GOD....

It only proved he was a free moral agent who could make his own personal decisions,not been goaded.....

Jesus chose to die for mankind in obedience to his Fathers will........

After all ,when he died,3days later it was his Father who ressurected him..........


Jesus got a reward for his obedience.....

He took his life and he got it back from the source of life Yahweh..
John 6:57

New International
Version (NIV)
57 Just as the living
Father sent me and I
live because of the
Father, so the one
who feeds on me will
live because of me.
.....

Jesus was rewarded with immortality in that he was never to taste death again,but annointed and elevated to a lofty position by Yahweh.....he is now sitting @ d right hand of Yahweh until all his enemies are put under his feet........

Let's also read hebrews 5:4-10 to see d results of Jesus being obedient and willing to take his life so as to gain it back...

4 And no one takes this
honor on himself, but he receives it when
called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on
himself the glory of becoming a high priest.
But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[a]
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek. ”[b]
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he
offered up prayers and petitions with fervent
cries and tears to the one who could save him
from death, and he was heard because of his
reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he
learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the
source of eternal salvation for all who obey
him 10 and was designated by God to be high
priest in the order of Melchizedek....

Its all Yahwehs doing........

Let's re-consider the whole of john 10:17 $ 18 u quoted....

New International Version (NIV)
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay
down my life —only to take it up again. 18 No
one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my
own accord. I have authority to lay it down and
authority to take it up again. This command I
received from my Father.”

....The Father loved Jesus for his willingness and obedience to die according to Yahwehs arrangement to save mankind......

Jesus ofcus accepted d divine will to come and die willingly .....

Meaning that though he layed down his life out of his own initiative,he was @ d same time doing his Fathers will and not his own will.........
.



Hebrews 10:7 tells us that.....
New International Version (NIV)
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about
me in the scroll —
I have come to do your will, my God.’”....


Those words found @ john 10:17 $ 18 does nt in anyway prove that Jesus is both GOD and man,it only shows how obedient Jesus was and the reward he was to attain and which he did attain........

Back to our main point::::::

The Almighty cannot and does not die and no one,I repeat no one has ever seen HIM...........


Thanks,......

Good,
a little additions.

if Jesus is the new high priest is he a high priest for himself? Heb7:8-12

Was melchizedech a high priest for himself? Heb7;1-7

Was Aron a high priest for himself?

Is it not to God? Revelation 20:6

This argument is sickening

truthislight:
This argument is sickening

I agree.

I wish to ask you guys one final question. That will decide the argument. The question is

HOW ARE WE SAVED?

I ask this because I believe that Salvation would not be possible if it wasn't God Who became man to die for us. Perhaps your answers will disillusion me. If they fail to do so, I will explain why I think what I think. I don't think I'll continue the argument after that. Because I believe that if we don't agree on the answer to that question, it is pointless to persist in the argument.