jazakhallah khair and eid mubarak! I have no prolem with islam astagfir allah I need tobuild up my iman.

@olubowale he lives in pittsburgh PA thats where we married so dou think that talaq was/is invalid as i was unwilling at the time (which I was) AND it was pronounced thrice and that was the only event. Add me toyou messenger

insha allah olubowale I'll make it my dawah

@Leilah

jazakhallah khair and eid mubarak! I have no prolem with islam astagfir allah I need tobuild up my iman.

May Allah make it easier for you and do feel free to ask knowledgeable muslims anything you are not clear about as far as Islam is concerned.

Jazakhullah Khairan and Eid Mubarak

@Leilah,

I just saw your profile and you are a very beatiful woman. Sometimes I wonder what we men are looking for. I very much doubt that your Ex (if you permit me to use that term), would find himself someone as beautiful as you. The story is almost always the same in cases like this.

In any case, I think this is the time for you to start asking yourself some very serious questions. I think you should forget the guy totally for now and concentrate on yourself for the time being. I am not unaware of the pains you feel by the divorce but you can allow God to turn those pains to gains for you. Afterall, we are told in the Bible that "all things work together for good for those who love God."  The most encouraging testimony to this scripture is of course knowing how God turned around the tragedy of the Cross into an opportunity for new life to those who believe in Him.

Talk to your Maker, He cares. You probably never grew up in an environment where God is presented to you as a loving Father who is touched by every grief you feel. He wants to hold you now, he wants to cuddle you and comfort you. Reach out to Him in every way you can. Know that He's heard the voice of your weeping and NOW is the time for you to take a bold step of faith towards Him. He said those that come to Him He will in no wise cast out.

For whatever reason, a book keeps coming to my mind while writing. The book is titled: "I Dared to call Him Father" by Bilquis Shekh. This is someone who also experienced a lot of pain and endured harrowing severance from those she loved. She was able to reach out in faith and called on her maker. of course that made all the difference.  The principle in the scriptures is that God provides comfort through those whom He has comforted through similar circumstances. I believe you will find a lot of comfort in those pages.

I wish you the very best and will definitley keep you in my prayers.

@Tayo-D


You don take style come here abi ;Dafter being unable to respond to why Jesus ordered them to buy sword and couldnt rebuke them for showing him same and had to tell them that it was enough

I just saw your profile and you are a very beatiful woman. Sometimes I wonder what we men are looking for. I very much doubt that your Ex (if you permit me to use that term), would find himself someone as beautiful as you. The story is almost always the same in cases like this.

In any case, I think this is the time for you to start asking yourself some very serious questions. I think you should forget the guy totally for now and concentrate on yourself for the time being. I am not unaware of the pains you feel by the divorce but you can allow God to turn those pains to gains for you. Afterall, we are told in the Bible that "all things work together for good for those who love God." The most encouraging testimony to this scripture is of course knowing how God turned around the tragedy of the Cross into an opportunity for new life to those who believe in Him.

Talk to your Maker, He cares. You probably never grew up in an environment where God is presented to you as a loving Father who is touched by every grief you feel. He wants to hold you now, he wants to cuddle you and comfort you. Reach out to Him in every way you can. Know that He's heard the voice of your weeping and NOW is the time for you to take a bold step of faith towards Him. He said those that come to Him He will in no wise cast out.

For whatever reason, a book keeps coming to my mind while writing. The book is titled: "I Dared to call Him Father" by Bilquis Shekh. This is someone who also experienced a lot of pain and endured harrowing severance from those she loved. She was able to reach out in faith and called on her maker. of course that made all the difference. The principle in the scriptures is that God provides comfort through those whom He has comforted through similar circumstances. I believe you will find a lot of comfort in those pages.

I wish you the very best and will definitley keep you in my prayers.

So what are you driving at so that I will know how to come in?

Leilah,you did not post this by accident.
Please watch this testimony of a Muslim woman,born Muslim who found the saving grace of Christ.
Christ gives you the assurance of Salvation.
You can talk to a messiah who loves and cares for you
You can have a relationship with a loving God who is not out there to punish you when you fall.
A God who can be personal to you and knows you by name.
I promise you Jesus,will give you that peace you've been searching for

Peace that passes no understanding.
He can take all your sins away and give you power to live a holy life.
A loving God is there with open arms ready to welcome you into his fold.
I did it.
He never ever fails

All you need to do is call on him.
That wonderful name,Jesus.
Please watch this and I know God will speak to you.
There is no other name given amongst men whereby we can be saved,except the name of Jesus.
He will take away the pain of that divorce and abandonment.
He will make you a more loving wife for your husband

email me at babyosisi@hotmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgwdUW-LfMY&feature=related

Another testimony just for you leila.
A devout Muslim woman old enough to be your grandma who found Jesus as saviour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKbP5wSaXaw&feature=related

@Nwando


I have been telling you and will keep telling you that your falsehood will not work here. You brought a link where someone lied that he saw Jesus in a dream and I provided rebuttal to that, nailing it to the cross that it was the work of the jinn to mislead people and Jesus even told you that wide is the road that leads to heaven and many of you would be threading it while narrow is the road to salvation and few would be there as in Islam.

You are here again, posting link about individual opinion. Let me chip in something, muslims are not after lifting false stories from internet or cooking up same. We have the Quran as our guide and we will always refer to that for guidance. I can as well post links about reversion of christians to Islam in which I happened to be one but I will not die that, you have known some notable personalities that left christianity for Islam and if you still need, I can give you that of another friend of mine that left your religion for Islam and would give you all the award he got from the church, the name of his church, his position etc.


Now to bail you out of your confusion on Jesus being your saviour, let me have your evodence on that and I will take the pain in lecturing you that Jesus is different from God and couldnt save himself let alone saving people, he didnt come to die for anybody's sin and was never killed nor resurrected.

If you are ready for these, I am equally up to the task and we will both dig down into the bible and maybe Quran for better clarification.

Thanks

@Nwando


Let us take this for a start and others will follow



WAS MAN BORN A SINNER?

Salam to my muslim brothers and sisters . May Almighty Allah continue to guide us in Islam as we spread the true message and the truth which is Islam and may HE never put any burden that will be too much for our faith.

While islam preach and propagate the sinlessness of man from birth, and attributing sin to whoever has done it alone, the religion of Christianity condemn all mankind as sinners-a perpetual sinners indeed who must inherit the original sin.
The muslim’s Holy Quran records only the doing of sin to the doer of sin in:
Quran 74v38: every soul will be held in pledge for (all) its deed
Quran 17v15: whosoever choose to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good, and whoever goes astray, did to his own hurt, and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden. Wherever, we would never punish (any community for the wrong they may do) until we have sent an apostle to give warning.

Quran 4v111: and if one sins, he earns it against his soul for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

On the other hand, the bible came with the notion of original sin that “Jesus has redeemed the world by sacrificing his life to cancel the sin of mankind” that, that original sin was the sin inherited from Adam and Eve through birth!

The bible says concerning the inherited sinfulness of man as follows:
Romans 3v23: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The sinfulness of man is thus made manifested in these verses and some unmentioned one. This doctrine is not accidental. The sinfulness of man, according to the bible, is that man is a perpetual sinner, born into sin, reared and nurtured as a sinner because in
Job 25v4: how can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

It therefore implies that, as long as man continue to be someone born of a woman, he cannot be clean! Even if he does all kind of righteous deeds until his death, he will remain unclean. This will also be applicable even if he accepted Jesus as his saviour! Why? Cos he would remain someone born of a woman and even though he became born again! The reason is not far-fetched, the bible says in:

Isaiah 64v6: we are all as an unclean thing, and our righteousness are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This inherited sinfulness of man was nurtured from the idea that Adam’s sin was later inherited by all men in:

Romans 5v12: wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

The doctrine of man’s inherited sinfulness can be said, without slightest doubt, a doctrine never preached by the earlier biblical prophet but an idea of some later biblical characters (eg Paul). They at the same time, contradicted themselves on what they have raised somewhere else in the same bible. The two following quotations will easily disprove that, men are sinners or that man inherited sin from his parent.

Ezekiel 18v20: the soul that sin shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son, the righteous shall be upon himself. OR
Romans 14v12: so then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

It therefore implies that the idea “none is righteous no, not one (Roman 3v9-12) is a fabrication, a naked fantastic lies, that is propagated with ignorance and fantasy. The following passages shows that some people are righteous and never born with any inheritable sin.

Mark 6v20: herod feared John knowing that he was a righteous and holy man.

Daniel 6v4: Daniel was faithful, no error or fault was found on him.

Luke 1v16: Zechariah and his wife were both righteous.

1st Samuel 12v3-5: Samuel never oppressed…he is free from all faults.

Mathew 1v19: Joseph was a just man

Luke 2v25: simeon was devout and righteous one etc

If we hold the word “how then can men be righteous before God? How can one who is born of a woman be clean (job 25v4) etc, to be true, then the passage will create more problem, because one Jesus is born from a woman, then Jesus could not be clean either judging from that assertion.

Two, if Jesus is born by a woman, then he would be said to have inherited the original sin from his mother.

Three, if the word “ all have sinned” be taken to its full length, Jesus would be included among the “all” because he is born of a woman.

However, in all manner of consideration, if the original sin is inherited and children are born into sin, Jesus would not have awarded “innocence” and “pure” state to them, neither would he have said in,

Mathew 18v3: and said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdon of heaven. OR
Mark 10v15: verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter heaven.

If all of us are born sinner because of Adam’s sin, then it portrayed God as one inflicting the punishment of a criminal to one who is not. This is equal to injustice. But our God is not unjust as in

Deuteronomy 24v16: the father shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children be put to death for the father’s, every man shall be put to death for his own sin. OR
1st Corinthians 3v8: how he that planted and he that watered are one, and every man shall receive his own reward according to his labour.

However, this doctrine of Blood Atonement created by the church, three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth contradicts the bible as in the above passages.

Others will come in soon when you attend to this post.

babs,if you decide to make yourself an agent of satan,that is your choice.
leila is a free woman,free to make up her mind .
Free to seek salvation.
You cannot muzzle her or anyone for that matter

She is an adult,free to choose whom to believe.

I don't have to jump up and down like you.
It is Christ who does the conversion,not nwando's words.
So relax.
The battle is not yours.
Get thee behind me

@nwando,

So you are babyosisi. I've always wondered where you've been.

@babs787,

You don take style come here abi  ;Dafter being unable to respond to why Jesus ordered them to buy sword and couldnt rebuke them for showing him same and had to tell them that it was enough

Again, you want to camouflage your lack of scholarship by taking a cheap shot in an unrelated thread. Very typical of you.

So what are you driving at so that I will know how to come in?

You no sabi read? Oh I forget, you sabi read, you only lack understanding!

@ babs

let me post a few rejoinders

IF your father lives in Mile 12 and gives birth to you. . .will you suddenly be living in Victoria Island or will you also dwell in Mile 12?

We ALL sinned because we were all inside of Adam when he sinned, this is not a case of God being unjust, if the source/origin of something is polluted, it cannot in itself produce clean offspring.

By sinning, Adam changed his basic nature - his Spiritual DNA so to speak from a divine sinless one to a sinful nature. There was no way that sinful nature could be prevented from being transmitted to his offspring, which thus results in the rest of his progenitors - the human race being sinners.

being Righteous comes from walking with God, it is an attribute that can be transferred from God to human beings, what Romans says is that no man OF HIMSELF is righteous.

All the righteousness attributed to the individuals you named arose from their close walk with God, not due to some in-born good or by their actions alone.

Jesus was born from a woman alright, but the context in which Job spoke was of NATURAL CONCEPTION resulting from a man's seed fertilizing the woman's egg.

Jesus came, however, as a result of the DIVINE CONCEPTION by the Holy Spirit, making his source in essence, SIN FREE, thus there is no debate or contradiction in that.

The atonement for SIN comes from the basis of 'The wages of SIN is death', life is carried in the blood, thus someone's blood needs to be shed/someone needs to die to PAY For the SIN committed, that is the simple basis of the Atonement of Blood.

IT is not in any way contrary to the teachings of prophets, since Isaiah himself spoke of 'the One who carries away the sins of the world' and the man 'bruised for our transgressions and chastised for our iniquities'.

@debosly,

That is a very nice piece. I couldn't add or delete from it.

I wonder why he has problem with Romans 3:23. I wish he could just prove the Bible wrong by pointing to one human being that has never sinned apart of course from Jesus. If He can provide one, then I'll be qucik to join sides with him.

to all christians


1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.

2. Can a man allow himself to face firing squad for a sin he has never committed?

3. If God’s anger was kindled against Adam and Eve for their disobedience, could the anger persisted on to the generation of Adam and Eve. Remember this God’s action
psalm 30v5: for his anger endureth but a moment and his favour is for a life time.

4. By raising the notion that men are born sinners, Christianity as a religion has made mockery of God’s love, forgiving capacity, forbearance in accepting our repentance and all out-let for the redemption of mankind through his mercy.

5. If men are born sinners, the coming of Jesus at the end of the world to die for the sins of men is equally stupefying.

6. If we could think over this statement very well, one could ask the protagonist of this doctrine, which kind of God is that who, because of a sin of two people, decided to condemn the entire humanity for the sin they never participated in nor knowing anything about?

7. Simply put, it is either men have not inherited any sins or that bible has told lie when it says as seen above that John, Daniel, Zechariah and his wife, Samuel, Joseph were all righteous men! Or are a sinners called righteous one in the bible?


and the second part will come after you might have answered this very post.

1 & 2 were answered in my initial post: all mankind was inside of Adam and Eve when they sinned, this changed their basic DNA to a sinful one and that was passed on. . .its like a man and woman with AA and AA genotype, they cannot by any means produce children with AS genotype since they don't have it in them. Your skin is black due to no 'sin' or choice of yours, merely because your parents are black.

That should be a simple enough principle to grasp

3 & 4 - the mere fact of John 3:16 covers and exhibits God's love and mercy, he loved us SO MUCH that Jesus came to redeem us from sin. Again 'born sinners' is as a result of the Spiritual DNA, you are born with it, nothing can be done to change that.

5 how is it stupefying? A solution to the SIN problem at a time the Sovereign Creator has chosen - what is wrong with that? Throughout the Bible God spoke of redeeming the people to Himself, in the fullness of time, the plan came into being as He planned.

6. You seem not to be able to get beyond this fact of inheritance. . .did you inherit genetic traits, skin colour, hair texture and others from your parents? If you can accept those, why is it difficult to accept that you inherited sin from your initial parents?

All humanity was inside of Adam and Even this is why we all have sinned.

7 - Righteousness is as a result of interaction/fellowship with the Righteous God, he imparts it to us as we relate with him. John, Daniel and the others were not accorded with ABSOLUTE righteousness. . .

if it is possible to be dirty, then to have a shower and become clean, then it is completely plausible and understandable that someone once a sinner becomes righteous after coming into contact with the Righteous God.

Tayo-D:

@nwando,

So you are babyosisi. I've always wondered where you've been.

My brother Seun showed me pepper after I said my piece.
It's all good.
How is madam and the little one?
My love to you all this Christmas season.
Remain blessed

@nwando,

My brother Seun showed me pepper after I said my piece.
It's all good.
How is madam and the little one?
My love to you all this Christmas season.
Remain blessed

The Bobo did the same to me o. I'm actually using a variant of my name now. madam is fine and the litle ONES are doing great two. I've got two boys. I wish you the very best too this season too.

What State do you reside? I might have you do some research for me!

debosky:

1 & 2 were answered in my initial post: all mankind was inside of Adam and Eve when they sinned, this changed their basic DNA to a sinful one and that was passed on. . .its like a man and woman with AA and AA genotype, they cannot by any means produce children with AS genotype since they don't have it in them. Your skin is black due to no 'sin' or choice of yours, merely because your parents are black.

That should be a simple enough principle to grasp

3 & 4 - the mere fact of John 3:16 covers and exhibits God's love and mercy, he loved us SO MUCH that Jesus came to redeem us from sin. Again 'born sinners' is as a result of the Spiritual DNA, you are born with it, nothing can be done to change that.

5 how is it stupefying? A solution to the SIN problem at a time the Sovereign Creator has chosen - what is wrong with that? Throughout the Bible God spoke of redeeming the people to Himself, in the fullness of time, the plan came into being as He planned.

6. You seem not to be able to get beyond this fact of inheritance. . .did you inherit genetic traits, skin colour, hair texture and others from your parents? If you can accept those, why is it difficult to accept that you inherited sin from your initial parents?

All humanity was inside of Adam and Even this is why we all have sinned.

7 - Righteousness is as a result of interaction/fellowship with the Righteous God, he imparts it to us as we relate with him. John, Daniel and the others were not accorded with ABSOLUTE righteousness. . .

if it is possible to be dirty, then to have a shower and become clean, then it is completely plausible and understandable that someone once a sinner becomes righteous after coming into contact with the Righteous God.

@debosky,

Enjoyed your simple answers o jare. Well done.

@babs787,

I was very busy in my office when I saw this one and thought to take a break before resuming in my second job this evening to make a few comments.

babs787:

While islam preach and propagate the sinlessness of man from birth, and attributing sin to whoever has done it alone, the religion of Christianity condemn all mankind as sinners-a perpetual sinners indeed who must inherit the original sin.

If that statement was made by someone else, perhaps we might have wondered that he was ignorant. But with all due respect, since it came from you, then mr babs787 you're only being naive and dubious in that claim. This is the one reason, as I earlier hinted in my replies to (Leilah) that Muslim apologists never tell you the truth!

Many Muslim apologists have misled the public into believing that Islam sees man as sinless. It is such propaganda that ignore the Qur'an and hadith that have led to the political statements of people like Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton, who said:

"Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man. It teaches that man
and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul
and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual
and moral attainments."

Anyone reading such bloviates from a politicized leaning will also fail to see that Islam does not treat men and women as having "equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual, and moral attainments"!! On the contrary is the fact that it was Muhammad himself who said he had not seen anyone "more deficient in intelligence and religion" than women (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 6, Num. 301).

Islam does NOT teach "the sinlessness' of man from birth", nor does it subscribe sin to whoever does it ALONE. As a matter of fact, what Islam teaches is that ONLY TWO people were born sinless - Mary and Jesus Christ! Muhammad taught that every single person coming into the world is touched by shaitan (Satan) and therefore begins to cry as a result of the defilement:

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 55, Num. 641:

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab: Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's
Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam,
but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth
because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child."
Then Abu Huraira recited: "And I seek refuge with You for her and for
her offspring from the outcast Satan" (3.36)

- - - - - -

Sahih Muslim, Book 30, Num. 5838:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)
as saying:

The satan touches every son of Adam on the day when his mother
gives birth to him with the exception of Mary and her son.


Even if you attribute sin to "whoever does it alone", it all the more establishes the fact that Muhammad was a sinner - because by your assumptions, sin is attributed to Muhammad as he alone would then have been doing it!

There are some Muslim sects and scholars who try to cheat others on the assumption that all the prophets are sinless - including Muhammad! Apparently, since they cannot deny the fact that only Jesus Christ was absolutely sinless, they must of necessity devise a means to make Muhammad and the prophet "sinless" as well. If we are to go by their fallacies, then we would have to reject the Qur'an altogether! WHY? Because the Qur'an teaches clearly that Muhammad was a sinner - otherwise he would not need to be praying for cleaning and forgiveness of sins that he did not commit!

Reference:

Qur'an 48 v 1-2

Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory,
That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past
and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour
unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path.

We see two things in this attestation:

(a) Muhammad sinned in the past

(b) Muhammad had an inclination to sin in future

Combined into just one line: Muhammad was a sinner who came to justify his own sins - which is a different thing from what other prophets actually saw as righteous living. Those prophets did not try to justify future sins by seeking forgiveness for them so that they can go and sin in future!

Just one point here in all of this: mr babs787, you will not help Leilah with such deception. If she buys into your duplicity, I'm truly sorry for her!

leilah,please listen to pilgrim1.
She's been where you are and is knowledgable in the teachings of Islam.
She can answer all the questions and misconceptions you may have regarding Christ,the Messiah of the universe

@Nwando, Leilah and Pilgrim.1: God Almighty is great. I had no intention of coming on NL and definitely on this thread, except that Allah the Almighty directed me. I need to offer a rebuttal to nwando, the big instigator, trying ever so hard to turn people away from the part of guidance!

leilah,please listen to pilgrim1.
She's been where you are and is knowledgable in the teachings of Islam.
She can answer all the questions and misconceptions you may have regarding Christ,the Messiah of the universe

If any one ever listens to Princess Pilgrim.1, on matters of religion, in the state of confusion that she is in now, calling an ordinary mortal, rejected enmasse his own people and never gained acceptance with them, Lord/God, such a person better take his/her position, on the line that goes to Hellfire! It is a forgone conclusion, a decree that will be come to pass. A hatman decree.

If she was ever a Muslim, she knew nothing about Islam then and she even knows less now! It is her heart. It refused and still refusing to accept guidance. If she knows anything about jesus son of Mary, she would have known that nothing he did could qualify him to be Almighty God! I can give a trillion reasons, and I wouild not have finished with reasons for its unqualifiability! The greatest of them is that he himself Prayed to God Almighty at the garden of Geshamene, that should indeed save him from desaster!

@babs787,
I was very busy in my office when I saw this one and thought to take a break before resuming in my second job this evening to make a few comments.
Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 06:46:40 PM
While islam preach and propagate the sinlessness of man from birth, and attributing sin to whoever has done it alone, the religion of Christianity condemn all mankind as sinners-a perpetual sinners indeed who must inherit the original sin.
If that statement was made by someone else, perhaps we might have wondered that he was ignorant. But with all due respect, since it came from you, then mr babs787 you're only being naive and dubious in that claim. This is the one reason, as I earlier hinted in my replies to (Leilah) that Muslim apologists never tell you the truth!
Many Muslim apologists have misled the public into believing that Islam sees man as sinless. It is such propaganda that ignore the Qur'an and hadith that have led to the political statements of people like Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton, who said:
"Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man. It teaches that man
and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul
and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual
and moral attainments."
Anyone reading such bloviates from a politicized leaning will also fail to see that Islam does not treat men and women as having "equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual, and moral attainments"!! On the contrary is the fact that it was Muhammad himself who said he had not seen anyone "more deficient in intelligence and religion" than women (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 6, Num. 301).
Islam does NOT teach "the sinlessness' of man from birth", nor does it subscribe sin to whoever does it ALONE. As a matter of fact, what Islam teaches is that ONLY TWO people were born sinless - Mary and Jesus Christ! Muhammad taught that every single person coming into the world is touched by shaitan (Satan) and therefore begins to cry as a result of the defilement:
Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 55, Num. 641:
Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab: Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah's
Apostle saying, 'There is none born among the off-spring of Adam,
but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth
because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child."
Then Abu Huraira recited: "And I seek refuge with You for her and for
her offspring from the outcast Satan" (3.36)
- - - - - -
Sahih Muslim, Book 30, Num. 5838:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)
as saying:
The satan touches every son of Adam on the day when his mother
gives birth to him with the exception of Mary and her son.

Pilgrim.1, i thought you were going to point out to us how being touched by Shaitan, equates to sinfulness, especially by babies, when born? But you huff and puff, but you could not blow down the house, because it is made of brick, The Qur'an and Hadith. If you were right, you would have told us, from the Bible that you are inviting somebody to believe and the personage of that belief, Jesus was indeed a sinner, by your statement of the devils mere interraction. Afterall, babies asre very weak and needed the adults support, especially that of the mother. How can you explain that of a grown man, who you call God when the devil/Shaitan is able to take me into the wilderness, and then tempted him at least 3 times? If the new baby who cried because the Shaitan touched him, is a sinner by this, we sure must agree the grown man who was driven by the same Shaitan into the wilderness and tempted repeatedly is also a sinnner!

But thank God, for Muhammad, who hve spoken the truth and defended Muhammad from your subjective lies. What Muhammad, indeed Qur'an and hadith teached about Mary and her son Jesus, that they are the two people who God did not create Shaitan/Shayatin for. However when Muhammad was asked about himself, he said that God had tamed his own Shayatin! It is as if he did not have any, because it is rendered useless. It is like when people say that there is multiple godhead and all of them are really useless and unimportant to the decision of the true God!

If I were to respond to your statement about women, I will spend all day educating you. However, Islam command all the essential aspect of worship on men and women, without any prejudice or favor! A person who goes to paradise or hellfire, is not based on the gender, but on God consciousness, piety and good deeds. But we see that women are more intensely emotional than men. So women's judgement, by and large may ride on this emotional quality more than men who repress this side of them.

Even if you attribute sin to "whoever does it alone", it all the more establishes the fact that Muhammad was a sinner - because by your assumptions, sin is attributed to Muhammad as he alone would then have been doing it!
There are some Muslim sects and scholars who try to cheat others on the assumption that all the prophets are sinless - including Muhammad! Apparently, since they cannot deny the fact that only Jesus Christ was absolutely sinless, they must of necessity devise a means to make Muhammad and the prophet "sinless" as well. If we are to go by their fallacies, then we would have to reject the Qur'an altogether! WHY? Because the Qur'an teaches clearly that Muhammad was a sinner - otherwise he would not need to be praying for cleaning and forgiveness of sins that he did not commit!
Reference:
Qur'an 48 v 1-2
Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory,
That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past
and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour
unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path.
We see two things in this attestation:
(a) Muhammad sinned in the past
(b) Muhammad had an inclination to sin in future
Combined into just one line: Muhammad was a sinner who came to justify his own sins - which is a different thing from what other prophets actually saw as righteous living. Those prophets did not try to justify future sins by seeking forgiveness for them so that they can go and sin in future!

Surah Taha was revealed because Muhammad worshipped too much at night, without resting. Allah told him to worship part of the night and rest there off, after it. Aisha asked him why he worshipped this much when Allah had forgiven any sins he might committed in the past (note the might part. It does not indicate that he ever committed any sin. All you have to do is to look at his life before he received revelation and it will become very clear!), and the sins of the future (from referencing the future, we see that God had extended mercy to him, even if he were to come into the sin. But is it possible that God raise up a Prophet and a Messenger and allows him to go astray as to commit sins?)? He responded to Aisha that shouldn't he be thnkful to his Lord for this? In Surah Fajr, we see the last two verse where God says to him and the true believers, that Oh my servants whose souls are pleasing to Your Lord, go into pleasure in My garden, enter Paradise, (I paraphrase the meaaning).

In all your statement, Pilgrim.1, you sound very sure, but you offered no proof! Muhammad stated that the pen is lifted for 3 people; The onee who is asleep, meaning unconscious. The one who is sick in the head, meaning deranged or man. And the child, meaning the one who has not reached puberty. How then is the touch of Shaitan on a newly born translated to that child being a sinner by that touch? No wonder you are explaining away something that does not go together, yet nwando couldn't see that you did not tie anything together!

Just one point here in all of this: mr babs787, you will not help Leilah with such deception. If she buys into your duplicity, I'm truly sorry for her!

Princess Pilgrim.1, it is you that is full of deceptions. Laying your traps of deceit all about the places, like a 'gospel preached about the places,' yet there is no reality to your traps. Of course, as to the preached gospel which i indicated above, no one can tell us anything about it.

Qur'an says that we the muslims are inviting others to paradise, while they are inviting us to hellfire. Who are doer of better deeds, between the two groups?

olabowale:


If any one ever listens to Princess Pilgrim.1, on matters of religion, in the state of confusion that she is in now, calling an ordinary mortal, rejected enmasse his own people and never gained acceptance with them, Lord/God, such a person better take his/her position, on the line that goes to Hellfire! It is a forgone conclusion, a decree that will be come to pass. A hatman decree.

If she was ever a Muslim, she knew nothing about Islam then and she even knows less now! It is her heart. It refused and still refusing to accept guidance. If she knows anything about jesus son of Mary, she would have known that nothing he did could qualify him to be Almighty God!

@olabowale,

Actually, empty accusations do not help to intelligently put your views and persuasions across. If anything, they effectively rubbish your attempts at sweating out your misconceptions.

If Muslims only took time for once to state simply truth (whether or not anyone agrees with them), then most certainly no one would take them to task. The one hilarious thing that has become second nature with most Muslims these days is the 'convenience games' you play and then evade issues.

Nonetheless, I simply would have passed on jeje without commenting in response to Babs' problems. Even though I was so busy, I just couldn't let his hypocrisy and deliberate falsehood go unchecked! He was deliberately misleading Leilah by controverting the core teaching of Islam as regards what I had offered - and that was the one thing I wanted to addres, as you would see I refrained from other matters that were equally serious enough to warrant a detailed rejoinder from me.

However, on patiently looking through yours, it is sad that you rather went further to obfuscate the reality of the subject as taught in Islam. No worries that you seem to often express your timidity by accusations that I did not understand Islam. But at least, one should have expected you to acknowledge what your Qur'an says and as verified in your hadiths.

This one thing I wish to understand from you:

Were the references I offered in my post from the Qur'an and Hadiths
saying something differently than the fact stated that Islam teaches
that sin affects everyone from BIRTH except TWO people - which are
Mary and Jesus Christ?

If you had carefully read through my piece and considered the references, perhaps you would not be so forward to have worsened your case by first accusing me of your phobiam and then launching further to confirm my point! Here is your direct statement:

olabowale:

What Muhammad, indeed Qur'an and hadith teached about Mary and her son Jesus, that they are the two people who God did not create Shaitan/Shayatin for.

That being so, I'm not sure that you were quoting what I lifted from the Hadiths. You had hoped to scuttle this issue around the usual Islamic game of contorting words to no avail!

The Hadith I quoted clearly says that Satan "touches" every son of Adam on the day of his brith! It does not say that God "created" anyone for Shaitan except two people; for if that were supposed by those Hadiths, then you're effectively saying that everyone (including Muhammad himself) was "created" for Shaitan except the two people aforementioned! My simple question to you is this:

Did 'Allah' create Muhammad for Shaitan - is that
what is stated in the hadiths I quoted earlier, olabowale?

Why do you Muslims often find it exponentially difficult to simply state the truth at any time? Why this hideous abracadabra of pretended scholarship that refuses to read clear staments and acknowledge what they state?

It is this kind of hypocrisy and dishonest mindset that I hinted earlier to Leilah as one of the things I discovered in Muslim apologists - the bold and deliberate tendency to falsehood and duplicity!

@olabowale,

olabowale:

However when Muhammad was asked about himself, he said that God had tamed his own Shayatin! It is as if he did not have any, because it is rendered useless.

That again is another attempt to hide the simple truth about the fact that Muhammad believed he had a demon!

If it was as if Muhammad did not have any demons/shaitan, why oh why was he often praying that 'Allah' should deliver him from his devils? Here again -

"O Allah! forgive me my sin, drive away my devil"
~ [Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Num. 5036]

If Muhammad's devil/demon/shaitan (or Jinn attaché) has been dealt with or "tamed" as you put it, why then was there a need for him to have been praying the same prayer every single night as he went to bed? How do you explain away the fact that is so obvious that Muhammad was very conscious of his personal demon - so conscious enough to have named it "my devil"?!?

You're simply making excuses for Muhammad, my dear olabowale. The man said he had a devil ("my devil", he called it), and there are no clever excuses you may put up that will wash away the fact. Please go through the Bible (including your "lost" Torah and Injil) and find any prophet who ever had a personal devil - just find only ONE!!

This is why I often sound the warning: if a prophet tells you that he had a personal devil, then. . . RUN FOR YOUR LIFE no matter how cleverly he tries to excuse away the fact!! A self-confessed "demon-possessed" or "devil-attached" prophet is not going to bring anyone something worthwhile O!

olabowale:

It is like when people say that there is multiple godhead and all of them are really useless and unimportant to the decision of the true God!

Lol. . . repeating the same thing like a broken record or badly scratched CD is not helping to diffuse the confusion you've let yourself in! Nobody has been talking about a "multiple godhead" - and I have already clarified this for you in another thread (it is a singular word, not a plural). That is why it is best to also take your argument here for simply what it is: "useless"!

olabowale:

If you were right, you would have told us, from the Bible that you are inviting somebody to believe and the personage of that belief, Jesus was indeed a sinner, by your statement of the devils mere interraction.

You see your huge blackhole, olabowale? Does it really pay you anything to force yourself into deliberate deception?

I'm sorry to burst your bubble with just a statement: neither the Bible, the Qur'an nor the hadiths anywhere teach that "Jesus was indeed a sinner". I never once argued to make that inference, and your attempt to allege that idea is a sad exercise to cover up your inability to hold a good discourse in honesty.

Please let me know where Islam ever taught that Jesus was indeed a sinner - whenever you find that reference. You may as well look forever. . . or let's just take you for the child that you are!

@Pilgrim 1 I am happy for you.

@Difidixone: Why are you happy for Pilgrim.1, she did the slight of hands? Thats a trick you find with the Magicians in Tourist destination places, eg. Las Vegas, etc. But in religious matters, she need to do better. She needs to start by being honest. I said that every one except Mary and his son Jesus had a Shaitan created for. That included our father Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses. Each one of these noble people is greater than Mary. Is that not so? God Himself created Adam, yet He allowed Shaitan/ who was Iblis before then to seduce him along with his wife. Why? They must come to the earth to populate the eath and they and their offspring be tested, so that the wheat can be separated from the shaft. Hell is waiting for the wrong doers. And Paradise is waiting by mercy of God for the righteous.

Do I need to say more about Noah who God used to wipe out a people given to evil, enmasse for the very first time. What about Ibrahim, who He called His persnal friend, or Moses who He spoke with directly! Are all of these people sinners because they were touched by Shaitan and that a Shayatin is created or assigned for them? But foolishly, the Christians said that Jesus himself, even though he did not have the touch of Shaitan as a baby, but as he finished his 40 days and nights fast, he was controlled and driven into the wilderness and also tested at least 3 times by Shaitan! Which is worse, the condition that only occured as a new born or the one that you are old enough, say 30 years old before you have a bad episode, which is more than mere touching? I leave you to make your own conclusion.

Finally see how Pilgrim.1 played with words. I said shaitan for every persons except 2, Mary and her son Jesus. Pilgrim.1 said What, Please read it in the below quote. You will see how dubious she really is!

The Hadith I quoted clearly says that Satan "touches" every son of Adam on the day of his brith! It does not say that God "created" anyone for Shaitan except two people; for if that were supposed by those Hadiths, then you're effectively saying that everyone (including Muhammad himself) was "created" for Shaitan except the two people aforementioned! My simple question to you is this:
Did 'Allah' create Muhammad for Shaitan - is that
what is stated in the hadiths I quoted earlier, olabowale?

Pilgrim.1, stop, speak the truth and thats better for you! Shaitan created for a person, as to instigate a person to wanna do evil, even though the person may not ever give in is different from a person is created for shaitan. It is as if shaitan is turned loose to control him, without ever receiving support from God, so that he does not have any control over the oppressive quality of Shaitan. Big big difference!

olabowale:

Finally see how Pilgrim.1 played with words. I said shaitan for every persons except 2, Mary and her son Jesus. Pilgrim.1 said What, Please read it in the below quote. You will see how dubious she really is!

Pilgrim.1, stop, speak the truth and thats better for you! Shaitan created for a person, as to instigate a person to want to do evil, even though the person may not ever give in is different from a person is created for shaitan. It is as if shaitan is turned loose to control him, without ever receiving support from God, so that he does not have any control over the oppressive quality of Shaitan. Big big difference!

@olabowale,

I asked a simple question: and you also quoted it. However, you still are making excuses for Muhammad, and have not answered the simple question as to whether the word "created" was used in those hadiths that I quoted earlier!

What word did Muhammad and 'Allah' use in those Hadiths?

"touch" or "created"?!?

If you are fond of openly LYING even against your Qur'an and Hadiths, what hope is left of Islam afterall?

@Pilgrim.1: THe hadith you quoted, the term,'touch,' is what was used. I even went further to states that Allah creates for every human, a shayatin, who whispers, subtle suggesting to that person to do evil. It does not mean that the person will do evil. I went further that just by the touch of the shaitan on the child does not make that child becomes a sinner, because 3 people do not have record/accounting. They are children before reaching the age of puberty. It is very clear therefore that the touch will have no impact on the child, at least th child is not a sinner by it. Afterall, my master, who you call your god jesus says lets the children come to me! And other statement to indicate purity of children. the second is an unconscious person. Sleeping is a good illustration of it. The last one is a person who is sick in the head as to be crazy or mad. How can you say any of these people are sinners, when they are in those states?

Then I said that Muhammad was sincere in the Qur'an to let you know that Jesus and his mother are the two who did not have any 'touch' of Shaitan, as young people. If this is how you wanna see it. But the Bible did not give any indication that Jesus and his mother hold this honor among mankind! Is there any indication? Rather the Bible tells us that he was driven by the devil into the wilderness and tempted 3 times. At adulthood! Is this the quality of God Almighty, being controlled by the devil?

Yet, Muhammad was humble enough to pray his Lord to render his own devil, which may suggest evil and against good, useless. God Almighty accepted his prayer and we know that from the time the first revelations, the last 23 years of his life, Allah granted him is supplications. At long last the devil was rendered useless with him. He was as good as no devil'touched' him. I do not know what you are driving at. Tell me so that I know how to explain it to you.

And by the way, did John son of Zachariah ever committed any sin? The answer is no.

A lady name Leila started a thread about how she is no longer a practising Muslim and asked if there were any others.
A former Muslim now a Christian,a fellow female named pilgrim1 answered and Olabowole is up in arms like the Pharisees of old.
He doesn't want salvation and wants to prevents others from hearing the message.
Now we know whose lips shaitan really smooched

Leila look past his deceit and read pilgrims posts carefully.
The girl has wisdom which I know she's sharing despite those trying to throw in confusion.
watch this clip about a woman knowledgable in Islam who fought like Olabowole to prove Christianity wrong but God had a plan for her life.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKbP5wSaXaw&feature=related

It only touches my lips. But for you, its french! I am a gentleman. Leilah does not want to become Christian. You, my dear Nwando, is a potential Muslima. You and your beau, InshaAllah are ready for Islam. I can see Pilgrim.1 making Daw'ah, again, to those Shayatin who got her into Kiriyo.

olabowale:

It only touches my lips. But for you, its french! I am a gentleman. Leilah does not want to become Christian. You, my dear Nwando, is a potential Muslima. You and your beau, InshaAllah are ready for Islam. I can see Pilgrim.1 making Daw'ah, again, to those Shayatin who got her into Kiriyo.

As long as Jesus lives,the answer is a capital NO.

2Ti 1:12 nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

@Nwando: My dear, neither you nor me know what is the present condition of Jesus son of Mary. Whether he is kept alive or he had been commanded to die, it is an unknown matter to both of us. So to quote Timothy and other materials which are written to support any Conjecture about his condition is naive. The Christians started a religion based on iffy or hypothesis. Until Muhammad challenged that idea, everything was okay. This challenge is similar to the natural selection hypothesis, which they turned to theory, without a tested sets of facts. A theorem has to be proven and also has to stand the relevant challenges to it. Your 3 in ! God does not hold! Every aspect of adding Jesus to Oneness of God is completely weak and very flat.

Finally Allah the Almighty said in Surah Al Rahmanthat every face shall perish (That means every one shall die, including all creations without any exception; jinn and man, angels, including Gabriel and Michael and angel of death himself!), except the face of God (only God Almighty will remain). In the Qur'an, Allah declares that when all the 'kings are dead,' (earthly kings, but we know that God alone is truly King and He remains intact) and every creation is dead, Allah will ask: Who remains alive? He will answer Himself, in affirmation of His true Lordship, 'I Am the Only One, the Irresistible,' (the only One that remain and no one is sharing that honor with Him)!

What you are claiming for Jesus, Jesus can not claim it for himself. He would have been destined for Hellfire if he had!

@ Nwando, Thanks for the Video and i think you should find the following Video interesting too.
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