@olabowale,

olabowale:

All the wives of Muhammad (as), my leader are mothers to all muslims, inluding their own fathers and mothers.

Where did your Qur'an say so? Abi you sef don start your own Sufi innovation into Islam?

@olabowale,

olabowale:

Alhamdulullah. Whatever the age of Seyida Aisha was when she became our mother, we are grateful for it. Through her, many hadith came to light. In this I have found great joy. Through Muhammad I have been able to know that I can remarry. To an older woman, a widow, a younger woman,etc and i do not have to marry just one, if I have all the acutremens to handle the situations.

Hadith when translated from its original Arabic form, we see that it has a mistranslations, sometimes. However, the soundness of any hadith depends on how many narrations and the people in the chain of each narrations. Finally there is no set of years that every human is to reach puberty. I remember those situations in the 60s and the early 70s, when supposedly young women get pregnant. We reckon with the birth age only, not considering the mental age or the fact that there may be a phenomenon in the equation of each of the person.

I asked Nwando to do a very simple task, she had since disappeared. Leaving immatured minds to go about in a blind rage. As if that will profit a disbeliever. All disbelievers will enter Hellfire, without any exception. Period!

I will be waiting for you Mrs. Nwando, to attempt to explain the conditions of Aisha. We know an authentic hadith, when we read it and put everything in their perspectives. We know the personality of Prophet Muhammad. This is why we have been asking the like of Nwando to step to the plate of truth. There could have been anybody in the chain of narrators who is considered to be a hypocrite or just plainly wrong in the statement made. But regardless, we are greatly educated by her youth relatively to the prophet maturity.

All this long stories. . . HOW have you answered the simple question instead of foaming in the mouth? Where's Wordsmith? He needs to send for your prescriptions of anti-depressants quick!

Again, I repeat:

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

For the dear Muslim onlookers. . . I just simply ask you one *thing[b]s[/b] here:

(a) when you find the Hadiths that confirms the issue here IN HER OWN WORDS,
would it be taken that Aisha was LYING?

(b) If she was NOT lying, what is the problem you Muslims have with her own words?

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

_{* I purposely left it as "one thing[b]S[/b]" while asking TWO questions! Lol. . . both questions are the same in different forms, and I was only being facetious!}

olabowale:

@Davidylan: Go back to medicine. You know Zero about religion. All my father's wives, are my mothers. All the wives of Muhammad (as), my leader are mothers to all muslims, inluding their own fathers and mothers. Duh! Like I said, go sit down and dissect something.

I'm not practicing religion so i dont know anything about it. But i do know when someone is lying through his teeth.
Again you'll do well to answer pilgrim.1's succint questions.

@Davidylan: Oh, and the mother of Protestants are the catholic. Afterall you copycatted their Bible? Remember, except that you changed up, by cancelling altogether 6 or 7 Books from it! And about the wives of Muhammad (as) being my mother, it is a far cry from the Catholic worshipping your god Jesus' mother, Virgin Mary! We in Islam do not worship Muhammad and definitely, we do not worship none of his wives; otherwise, we would not be having 1 God, but many. You know better davidylan. You are trying a smear campaign, because you worship Jesus and then the God of Jesus and then the Holy Spirit that came to Jesus. You have three gods by that alone. Then your Catholic brethren worships mother of Jesus. You guys still call her Virgin after you said that she produced the brothers of Jesus with Joseph the capenter. Tell me how can she remained a Virgin, by any definition after producing some men, specifically after having conjugal relationship with Joseph? Tell me, Dave!

Islam stand separate and apart from all of ya religions; Mother catholic, baby Protestant and Daddy Judaism! Then you have cousins Hindu, etc. David am waiting for your wimpy response. You know that you are losing out in this case.

@olabowale,

Please stop sweating with such chidlish rants. There was only one request davidylan made:

davidylan:

Again you'll do well to answer pilgrim.1's succint questions.

- direct, concise, and sensible!

Incase you missed it for lack of anything you blame under the sun, here it is again:

pilgrim.1:

@olabowale,

(a) when you find the Hadiths that confirms the issue here IN HER OWN WORDS,
would it be taken that Aisha was LYING?

(b) If she was NOT lying, what is the problem you Muslims have with her own words?

Can you please stop foaming in the mouth and playing hide and seek so you can address the question as simply as sanity allows you?

Hi everyone and happy new year sorry I have not been on. Thakns for all this replies it going to take me a while to carefully read them all. @ D re;oaded my husband is very confused himself he has no problem with islam at all.

Hi everyone and happy new year sorry I have not been on. Thakns for all this replies it going to take me a while to carefully read them all. @ D re;oaded my husband is very confused himself he has no problem with islam at all.

Leilah:

Hi everyone and happy new year sorry I have not been on. Thakns for all this replies it going to take me a while to carefully read them all. @ D re;oaded my husband is very confused himself he has no problem with islam at all.

Please stop mentioning your husband already. If your husband is really confused, your continous mention of it almost makes him seem a stupid man. If you are the one who is confused then I suggest you please stop acting and go see a person who ACTUALLY KNOWS of GOd to get some words of wisdom imparted on you. You make your husband seem a very stupid person if you come in here to tell us he is a catholic but he is confused meaning he does not even know God enough to know that first thing to do is ask God for answers to his many questions. You on the other hand should try do the same for you and your man.

Kobojunkie:

Please stop mentioning your husband already. If your husband is really confused, your continous mention of it almost makes him seem a stupid man.

@Leilah,,

Lol. . . I don't mean to be funny or anything of the sort. But the line in Kobojunkie's that I quoted got me quite unprepared! WHY? For just one fact that my colleagues in the office have said exactly the same thing again and again! I almost fell out my chair when I read it in kobojunkie's post - almost as if he was right in my office when people were mking the same remarks.

All the same, I would rather you calmly examine the claims presented before you. I have refrained for a while in this thread, but came back to debate issues with Muslims here who have tried to be quite insincere and dubious in their submissions - the very same thing I hinted earlier that turns me off and strengthened one of the reasons why I left Islam.

It wasn't easy for me; but a day dawned in my life and I knew that a holy God would not keep up lying with anyone. It is up to you (and your husband) to seek God's truth - not from the mouth of propagandists who cannot be man enough to share simple truth with you; but from carefully examining the issues presented and asking God to help you. He definitely will do so - His love does not discriminate on whether a person is Muslim or pagan - He loves everyone, and that is why Jesus continues to save people today.

Happy New Year again.

Pilgrim, finally i got the link


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=95899.msg1722072#msg1722072


Some people believe that Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (peace be upon him) was consummated.

The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the hadith. Not only that, I think -that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective standpoint. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

-----Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

-----It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

------Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)

----Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

----According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

-----According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

-----According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

----Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

------According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

-----Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

----According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

----According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

Neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

@mdsocks: Salaamualaykum. Jazakallahu Khair. I am going to begin my Quiyam now. But we in Islam know the truth, and that was why I was giving Nwando all kind of cronological developments, to be able to find out truly about Aisha. But, true to her form, she went away or hiding probably when she found out the truth, she can't bear to tell it. That make her testimony worth even less. I do not think greatly of her statements towards Islam anyhow.

If anyone knew the relationship between Abu Bakr and Muhammad, before Islam, it would be surprising to know that Abu Bakr, was the first person, outside of Muhammad's household to accept Islam. This was the fisrt year of Islam and Aisha was Already 4 or 5 years old by the time of the first revelation. They spend 13 years in Makka on top of her 4 or 5 years. Then they spend 2 years before she and the prophet(as) consumated the marriage. She was atleast 19 or close to 21 at this time! We are talking about Arabia of over 1400 years back. The first thing was that no one in either Makka or Madina or inbetween or those who heard amongst the people; Jews and Christians includedalong with the to the core idol worshippers, none use this early spring and late fall relationship as a means to accuse him. Here you have freaks from Nigeria, who probably lost their virginities in the backroom somewhere, come to show us what morality. Considering that they do not even know how to adore their Creator and they set up an intermediary between themselves or worship whatever they set up along with Him!

I am tired of their lies and its better to let them wallow in Ignorance. God will excite them as He excited Pharaoh, and they will enter the fire of hell in lock steps with him. That is if they do not turn back and repent and enter Islam. I am very confidence without any doubt no One has the right to be worshipped, but the Almighty alone. And He is not three, but in Oneness. And Muhammad is His last Prophet and Messenger.

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:

Pilgrim, finally i got the link


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=95899.msg1722072#msg1722072

Thank you - I am grateful. I will carefully clear my desk and then spend a few minutes to quickly post a reply. (You can't believe that I'm working on New Year's day!) Lol.

I appreciate your efforts, though.

Cheers.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@mdsocks: Salaamualaykum. Jazakallahu Khair. I am going to begin my Quiyam now. But we in Islam know the truth, and that was why I was giving Nwando all kind of cronological developments, to be able to find out truly about Aisha. But, true to her form, she went away or hiding probably when she found out the truth, she can't bear to tell it. That make her testimony worth even less. I do not think greatly of her statements towards Islam anyhow.

If anyone knew the relationship between Abu Bakr and Muhammad, before Islam, it would be surprising to know that Abu Bakr, was the first person, outside of Muhammad's household to accept Islam. This was the fisrt year of Islam and Aisha was Already 4 or 5 years old by the time of the first revelation. They spend 13 years in Makka on top of her 4 or 5 years. Then they spend 2 years before she and the prophet(as) consumated the marriage. She was atleast 19 or close to 21 at this time! We are talking about Arabia of over 1400 years back. The first thing was that no one in either Makka or Madina or inbetween or those who heard amongst the people; Jews and Christians includedalong with the to the core idol worshippers, none use this early spring and late fall relationship as a means to accuse him. Here you have freaks from Nigeria, who probably lost their virginities in the backroom somewhere, come to show us what morality. Considering that they do not even know how to adore their Creator and they set up an intermediary between themselves or worship whatever they set up along with Him!

I am tired of their lies and its better to let them wallow in Ignorance. God will excite them as He excited Pharaoh, and they will enter the fire of hell in lock steps with him. That is if they do not turn back and repent and enter Islam. I am very confidence without any doubt no One has the right to be worshipped, but the Almighty alone. And He is not three, but in Oneness. And Muhammad is His last Prophet and Messenger.

Do not fret yourself. Wisdom offers that we be not hasty in our words, lest we celebrate foolishness! See it in Proverbs 29:20.

Cherio. . . and Happy New Year!

Hallo @mdsocks and Happy New Year!

Thanks for the link - I have carefully gone through it before you posted it, but could not easily remember what thread on Nairaland I saw it earlier since it was actually re-posted from another site - (http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm). There is a footnote on that webpage that gives us a clue as to whom the research was attributed:

The answer to this question is primarily based on the research
by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet,
"Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah,
Karachi, Pakistan.

If anything, you should understand that authors linked to Pakistan have a huge problem with accepting anything coming from Iraq! But that is of little consequence to me presently. All the same, many thanks.


Now, let's make a few observations:

Observation #1. The researcher(s) favour the idea that the Hadith accounts are unreliable:

The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the hadith. Not only that, I think -that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening.

The problem for whoever is making this thrice-unreliable statements is that he is discrediting what has been received as "Sahih" - that is, authentic, sound and undisputable! If this is the way Muslims now want us to adjudge the Sahih Hadiths, then again it presents a huge issue for Islam indeed - because it would be saying that absolutely nothing is to be trusted in the Hadiths regarded as "Sahih" - whether reported from 'Sahih Bukhari' or 'Sahih Muslim'.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Observation #2. The researcher(s) has a problem with the Hadith accounts because they seem to have been reported by the same person:

-----Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three

It is clear that the researcher(s) was being highly disingenous, because he was trying to carve a 'convenience tool' of denying the obvious on the basis that the narratives came from only one reporter. What the Muslim should understand is that there are a lot of Hadith accounts that have been acknowledged without question by the Muslim ummah even though they were reported by ONLY ONE person! It does not matter at all where such a singular reporter lived - whether in Iraq, Iran, or Bahrain. As long as the majority of Islamic scholars acknowledge that the accounts are "Sahih" (authentic, sound, undisputable), the complaints of this researcher(s) are untenable. If we apply the same rule of thumb to all the "Sahih" hadiths, we would have to slake off a whole lot of tenets held in Islam and render the religion a mere skeleton of its former self!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Observation #3. What the the researcher(s) indeed favour was highly partisan; because he had held the reports of the "Sahih" hadith to be:

~ grossly mis-reported

~ highly unreliable

~ an unlikely happening

. . . and for all that, he came back acknowledging the accounts of some other sources to be acceptable:

----According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

On what basis then should we jettison one contradiction in favour of another contradiction? That is the crux of the issue here that requires a little more effort in our intellectual exercise. Although the claim that favours the researcher's mindset is that Aisha was a young girl (jariyah), one would have to wonder what a girl of that age would be doing with dolls!

Please allow me to once again quote the particular "Sahih" Hadith from Bukhari where we even find a commentary as to what age-bracket Aisha must have been at the time she was with Muhammad:

- - - - - - - - - - -
Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Book 73, Num. 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet,
and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to
enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet
would call them to join and play with me.
(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed
for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)
(Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
- - - - - - - - - - -

I have simply lifted reference from Sahih Bukhari, not editing, no additions. Could you please also notice two huge things:

(a) this reference did not state that it was reported by any other person except from Aisha herself! Not from Hisham ibn `urwah or anyone else from Iraq! That is why I was asking earlier whether Aisha's in her own words could be considered as simply lying, whereas I doubt that any Muslim would have the mettle to say so!

(b) the footnote in the parenthesis was not my addition - you may consult the hadith and see that it is there! What is mentions is that Aisha at the time:

~ was with Muhammad

~ she was a "little girl"

~ she was not yet considered as having reached the age of puberty!

These alone should set the whole context for the new argument that Aisha's own words cannot be trusted! I am sorry to notify you that if we jettison this reference that clearly enunciates that Aisha was a "little girl not yet reached the age of puberty", then there would be no basis to accept the opposite contradiction that favours the idea that Aisha was a teenager! We would only then be chasing belly-bottons and playing religious bunco.

@mdsocks

Now comes the interesting part - Islamic arithmetics!

Observation #4. The researcher only argues away from the main gist and arrives at contradictory ages, ranging from anywhere between 15, 17 or even 21 years of age! At the end of the day, there is not a single coherent or accurate figure for Aisha's age which the researcher had imagined to resolve! Please allow me to simply quote the relevant sections to make this clear:

~ (a) Aisha must have been between 18 to 20 years old at marriage:

-----According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

However, the account from the Sahih hadith in Aisha's own words state that she was 18 years when Muhammad died, and not when she married him:

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Num. 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle
(may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old,
and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine,
and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died
she was eighteen years old.


Anyhow, we move on to the next contradictory piece of Islamic arithmetic:

~ (b) Aisha must have been most likely 14 years old at marriage:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

~ (c) Aisha must have been 15 or 16 years old at marriage:

----According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Okay, the figures are in! But which is it actually? Is it -

~ 18 to 20 years old at the time of marriage?

~ 14 years old at the time of marriage?

~ 15 or 16 years old at the time of marriage?

~ 19 or close to 21 years old when they consumated the marriage
(according to olabowale's theory: click here)

On what basis then should we jettison one contradiction in favour of another contradiction if simple Islamic arithmetics are as contradictory as the above?

The researcher(s) do(es) not leave us any wiser with an accurate figure; and it does not make sense to reject one set of so-called 'contradiction' in order to curry another set of 'contradictions'. Common sense requires us to slice through the impaled conundrum and understand that one set of misleading accounts do not justify another set of yet misleading references.


However, on a closing note, let us also observe the gist in the researcher's effort:

Observation #5. The researcher believes that the accounts should be disregarded regardless of the fact that they do not lend any credence to his arguments. What he argues away from are the FACTS; and then he leaves the reader the more confused with inaccurate figures that are clearly in contradistinction. However, the researcher attempts to present Aisha as a "lady" at the time she got married:

----According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The FACTS however in the Sahih Bukhari account by Aisha in her own words quoted earlier do not lead to the inference that she was a lady! Aisha was with Muhammad at the time, duely settled in her marital life; and common sense requires the reader to ask what a "lady" would be doing with dolls!! Let's remind ourselves again:

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Book 73, Num. 151:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet,
and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to
enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet
would call them to join and play with me.
(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed
for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)
(Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

- - - - - - - - - - - -

This account is corroborated ('confirmed') by the other cross references in yet other "Sahih" hadiths - like Sahih Muslim!

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Num. 5981:

'A'isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates
came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah's Messenger
(may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

The Hadith in Sahih Bukhari clearly said that she was a LITTLE GIRL not yet reached the age of puberty - and we should be asking here what correlation is there between a "lady" and a "little girl"!

@olabowale,

Now you can help us address the same question I have offered earlier. Incase you missed it for lack of anything you blame under the sun, here it is again:

pilgrim.1:

@olabowale,

(a) when you find the Hadiths that confirms the issue here IN HER OWN WORDS,
would it be taken that Aisha was LYING?

(b) If she was NOT lying, what is the problem you Muslims have with her own words?

And while you are on it, could you please refrain from the short-lived jubilation that nwando 'disappeared'? She obviously did not - and around this time of New Year celebrations, a lot of people are busy with loads of other things to catch up on! You often quickly celebrate such half-hearted jubilation over nothing - as if everyone has to sleep on their keyboard as you do, and then play hide-and-seek when you meet with answers to your bloviates!

Now, kindly address the simple questions - just two (as I don't want you to choke on so many this New Year!) Thank you plenty again O!

pilgrim

Okay, the figures are in! But which is it actually? Is it -

~ 18 to 20 years old at the time of marriage?

~ 14 years old at the time of marriage?

~ 15 or 16 years old at the time of marriage?

~ 19 or close to 21 years old when they consumated the marriage
(according to olabowale's theory)

her exact age must not be an issue here, it should be if shes matured enough to be married to the prophet.The age range according bro olabowales and other references show that she's matured enough to be married to the Prophet(saw).

mdsocks:

pilgrim

her exact age must not be an issue here, it should be if shes matured enough to be married to the prophet.The age range according bro olabowales and other references show that she's matured enough to be married to the Prophet(saw).

@mdsocks,

I understand your persuasion, and can well sympathize with it.

The huge problem here is well encapsulated in my previous questions; and let me put it this way:

Should we rubbish Aisha's testimony on the basis of
the inconsistencies of those who contradict her with
no coherence in their arguments?

The hadiths known as "SAHIH" (sound, authentic, undisputable) clearly show that:

~ Aisha was a LITTLE GIRL

~ not quite attained the age of puberty

~ a "LADY" could NOT have been playing with dolls

All these are insurmountable and incontrovertible evidence that the argument to make her a "lady" mature enough for marriage is a farce. Besides those already cited, there are tons of evidence in the Hadiths that confirm that Aisha was a child-bride, rather than mature enough to fit the age-bracket cut out for her as a "lady".

back from vacation.
pilgrim your post was a classic !
How dare these Muslims here call Aisha a liar?

@nwando,

nwando:

back from vacation.
pilgrim your post was a classic !
How dare these Muslims here call Aisha a liar?

Welcome o jare! Happy New Year to you. No mind the footsoldiers who have been celebraying their ribald claim that 'nwando disappeared'. . . mere excuses for not attending to the simple questions I offered olabowale!

Abeg, Muslims. . . with all your scientific Qur'an, where is the scientific answer to my two simple questions? Here again:

@olabowale,

(a) when you find the Hadiths that confirm the issue here IN HER OWN WORDS,
would it be taken that Aisha was LYING?

(b) If she was NOT lying, what is the problem you Muslims have with her own words?

We are still waiting to understand how Muhammad would have received "revelation" to take a "little girl" to bed, even though she had "not yet reached the age of puberty" ([Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13 - as referenced in Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 8, Book 73, Num. 151])!

@Nwando: Welcome back.

back from vacation.
pilgrim your post was a classic !
How dare these Muslims here call Aisha a liar?

: First Aisha did not write the Hadith that wakes you up like a shot of starbuck coffee. It was not written during her time. It was passed down, in a chain of narration. It is unlike the Qur'an, which is required for everyone to know a good deal of. A poor person, for example, except that he/she is acquiring scholarship so that it can be taught to others, does not have to be an expert in Sadaqah. He or she does not have the essential ingredient(s), to practice sadaqah. Further there were people who had hypocrisy in their hearts and yet professed Islam from the tongue. Hadith is not recorded by just one chain of narration to be sahih. Further there are other aspects to hadith that determine the classification of a hadith from being sound to being weak and doubtful. I doubt if Aisha was 6 or whatever the age you and those people who got frozen on that level believe!

You see, I know Muhammad and I also know Aisha. My dear Nwando, you have no knowledge of either. This is why that I gave you a few short quizzes, which I will put up for you now to quickly answer: When was Aisha born, before her father, Abu Bakr becoming a Muslim or after? How old was she when her father became a Muslim? How far along in the life of Islam, from the first revelations, which were just 5 verses from Surah Alaq (Note that these verses did not contain 'Qul,' say which was the word that is making you crazy), that Abu Bakr became Muslim? Who was the first grown male to become Muslim? Who was to become Muslim outside the bloodline and household of Muhammad? Who was the Kalifah of Islam when Aisha passed away? What was her age? How long did she live after the death of the prophet? When did she marry Muhammad, relative to the year of Hijra?

Now, just because somebody said said that Aisha said something and you Nwando tag it as her own word, does not mean that she said it and it is her own word. She is not available to deny or confirm it. The same condition with your claiming that Jesus, is one part, god, one part, son of god, one part prophet and 100% son of man! Let me ask you again, was he one part son of man,too? Then here is the one, two punch combination, how do you add all of these to be one whole Enchilada? Chei, I don't want your husband know that I take you through this rollercoaster! I feel guilty already, but I got to do it to you, like that!

Answer the questions.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

First Aisha did not write the Hadith that wakes you up like a shot of starbuck coffee. It was not written during her time. It was passed down, in a chain of narration. It is unlike the Qur'an, which is required for everyone to know a good deal of.

Nobody asked you whether Aisha wrote down the Hadith by herself. Whoever wrote it certainly knew that Aisha could not have deliberately been misleading them. Even the qur'an was written by the pen and ink of men. Period.

The question is a straightforward, no-nonsense one:

WAS Aisha lying in testifying in her own words (as recorded in the hadiths) that she was only a girl when Muhammad married and took her to bed?

PLEASE NOTE I AM REPEATING THE POSTING OF THIS MESSAGE IN MOST THREADS IN OTHER TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE PEOPLE MENTIONED GET THE MESSAGE I AM TRYING TO PASS ACROSS, I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INCONVINIENCES IT MIGHT CAUSE OTHER THREAD USERS,

Pilgrim.1, Davidylan, How are you, sorry you didn't I didn't post , statements and comments at all, for a while.

They were due to the following reasons:

1. I didn't have anything to say
2. I realise it was useless trying to convince them (@bab787, @olabowale and co) about something , when Satan has already blinded them to the truth. They themselves have decided to look for loopholes (where there is none) within the bible and lies with which to continue living a lie, and choose not to believe
3. I realised that their (@babs787, et al) would not come by arguing with them , instead it would come via the HolySpirit, ministering to them.

Let us remember that is , He (God) is the one who saved us, , so He is the One who would save them, Our own job as true Christians is just to , "SOW THE SEED OF THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST".

Whether or not " They choose to be infertile ground or grounds filled with thorns " is not really our perogative.

4. Finally I have noticed that "they are living for the now , while we are living for the now and then", so just like Jesus instructed the disciples there comes a time when we are supposed to dust our feet and leave


By the way pilgrim.1 and Davidylan, please find attached, some video links that have helped me to understand certain lies , deceit and indoctrination of "Evolution", I hope it helps you to see the truth as it has helped me to see the truth.


http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_2.avi


http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_1.avi


http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_4.avi


http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_3.avi


http://drdino.plaingospel.com/seminar2.wmv


http://drdino.icsrepair.com/videos/lowbitrate/seminar4_low.wmv


http://drdino.icsrepair.com/videos/lowbitrate/seminar3_low.wmv


http://drdino.plaingospel.com/seminar5.wmv


http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/6_the_hovind_theory_part_5.avi


http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_5.avi


http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v27/i4/Wang.asp


http://www.drdino.com/drdinoLinks.php


Finally false doctrine contributes to doubts in ones life and faith in God : below is a link to something on false doctrine which can and might
have led many Christians astray:

http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.html


To you @babs787, @olabowale , and co, the wise and intelligent thing to do (instead of being dogmatic about issues) is to try and find out why those Christians that were formerly "either so called Moderate Muslims" and "Fanatical Muslims" decided to turn away from their ways and decide to become Christians. At least the truth is that some of them were probably as confrontation and unyielding in their statements as you "seem" to be. It would help you to at least prove for yourself by asking them "WHY" they left islam for Christ.

Unless you take joy in trying to "windup everybody" just for the sake of it, it would help you to conduct truthful research and analysis into why former terrorist, moderate muslims, fanatical muslims, decided to risk everything (life, job and family) all for the purpose of becoming a TRUE CHRISTIAN.


Pilgrim.1 and Davidylan stay blessed and in the hope of salvation through CHRIST

olabowale:

@Nwando: Welcome back. : First Aisha did not write the Hadith that wakes you up like a shot of starbuck coffee.

see me see Alhaji o
we never even say happy new year you don begin shout
I liked your punchline though.
How are you and how are the madams,senior and junior?
Take a deep breath dear.
Nwando is back,as sweet as ever.
This is the year you answer Yes Lord to Christ.
This year will not pass you by.
Take it easy o
inugo
jiri nwayo.

nwando:

This is the year you answer Yes Lord to Christ.
This year will not pass you by.

Yes O! Hallelujah!

see me see Alhaji o
we never even say happy new year you don begin shout
I liked your punchline though.
How are you and how are the madams,senior and junior?
Take a deep breath dear.
Nwando is back,as sweet as ever.
This is the year you answer Yes Lord to Christ.
This year will not pass you by.
Take it easy o
inugo
jiri nwayo

: So if I do not become a yes lord person to Jesus, IshaAllah, it will happen, then you must declare Allah as your Lord, Islam your religion and Muhammad as your Messenger! Deal? If you are confident, then put it there. Am waiting.

@olabowale,

How body? Isn't it amazing that you often crawl out of your cubicle when you feel the coast is clear?

olabowale:

: So if I do not become a yes lord person to Jesus, IshaAllah, it will happen, then you must declare Allah as your Lord, Islam your religion and Muhammad as your Messenger! Deal? If you are confident, then put it there. Am waiting.

We are also waiting - on one condition: if you guys have finished with your bloviates and mendacity for the cause of Islam, especially when you wayo the Forum with bloviates and lies, then we shall see how far that takes YOU!

pilgrim.1:

@olabowale,

How body? Isn't it amazing that you often crawl out of your cubicle when you feel the coast is clear?

We are also waiting - on one condition: if you guys have finished with your bloviates and mendacity for the cause of Islam, especially when you wayo the Forum with bloviates and lies, then we shall see how far that takes YOU!

ha ha ha ha
abeg small small.
you've give them enough food for thought to last them at least 3 ramadans on this thread alone