sonmvayina:


Is there anywhere in the entire old testament that speak of anything like christology?

What is christology?

sonmvayina:


So christianity is paganism because it was not God who ordered it..who asked for it?

Christians are simply followers of christus ( whom they believe is messaiah). How do you know God ordered judaism or anything? the early Christians did not see themselves as part of a new religion per se.

sonmvayina:


Only romans/greeks have the idea of god having children with humans...the jews dont have it..

Well I see what you mean here concerning the virgin birth. Well virgin birth is not necessarily interpreted by many Christians I know as God having a child with humans.
Apart from Matthew and Luke, it was not so important in first century early Christian literature. I believe it wasn't such a common topic about jesus, and I do not think that's the reason Christians call Jesus son of God.
John (writing somewhat later) and who probably wanted to prove to all more than anyone else that Jesus is son of God, doesn't even mention it.

GeneralDae:

What is christology?

The whole idea about jesus christ...

sonmvayina:



The whole idea about jesus christ...

I'm loving this brainstorming

Jman24:





I'm loving this brainstorming

Lol..

GeneralDae:

What is christology?

The whole idea of jesus christ did not originate from the old testament. I have not come accross anywhere in the entire old testament where any prophet said anything like God sending his son to die for the sins of men and after 3 days rise from the dead. God decreed death for humans when they became aware of their ability to make choices.

The idea of original sin is not found anywhere in the old testament.

God already gave a solution to the problem of sin in 2nd chronicle 7:14. "If the people who are called by my name will humble them selves and confess their sins and turn away from their evil ways, i wilk hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land....confess and forsake...no human or jesus scrifice was needed....

So, the jesus story is not jewish

sonmvayina:


The whole idea of jesus christ did not originate from the old testament. I have not come accross anywhere in the entire old testament where any prophet said anything like God sending his son to die for the sins of men and after 3 days rise from the dead. God decreed death for humans when they became aware of their ability to make choices.

The idea of original sin is not found anywhere in the old testament.

God already gave a solution to the problem of sin in 2nd chronicle 7:14. "If the people who are called by my name will humble them selves and confess their sins and turn away from their evil ways, i wilk hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land....confess and forsake...no human or jesus scrifice was needed....

So, the jesus story is not jewish

The passover story as well as Isaiah 53 points to Jesus. Heck the entire story of isreal points to Jesus.

The idea of original sin was not a teaching of Jesus. Although original sin(in my opinion)is a reasonable doctrine, if you think about it critically.

Jesus also prescribed thesame method for sin as 2nd Chronicle 7v14. Jesus sacrifice for sin on the cross is related to passover deliverance of the isrealites from exile due to sin. More like collective community sin of the nation. It is not human sacrifice to God but rather more like the selfless sacrifice of a General who loves his nation or people.

GeneralDae:

The passover story as well as Isaiah 53 points to Jesus. Heck the entire story of isreal points to Jesus.

The idea of original sin was not a teaching of Jesus. Although original sin(in my opinion)is a reasonable doctrine, if you think about it critically.

Jesus also prescribed thesame method for sin as 2nd Chronicle 7v14. Jesus sacrifice for sin on the cross is related to passover deliverance of the isrealites from exile due to sin. More like collective community sin of the nation. It is not human sacrifice to God but rather more like the selfless sacrifice of a General who loves his nation or people.

It's very clear that you are comfortable with teachings of funny fellows. Just study for yourself. Isaiah 53 is in no way referring to a person but a nation. That nation most at times is used in the singular.. he was this he was that.

It's all about the suffering servant "Israel". Isaiah mentioned it severally before chapter 53..

I don't understand where you manufactured this other conjecture from

Jman24:



It's very clear that you are comfortable with teachings of funny fellows. Just study for yourself. Isaiah 53 is in no way referring to a person but a nation. That nation most at times is used in the singular.. he was this he was that.

It's all about the suffering servant "Israel". Isaiah mentioned it severally before chapter 53..

I don't understand where you manufactured this other conjecture from

Isaiah 53 is about suffering messaiah bearing the sin of the nation isreal. There were two types of servants used interchangeably in Isaiah, Israel and the Israel's messaiah representing Isreal. Isaiah 49v1-6 for example is about a person, so also Isaiah 53.

shadeyinka:

I won't blame you for not understanding this theme you have written on.
Even Allah was confused by saying that Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus!

Allah SWT said:

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?' He will say, Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."
(QS. Al-Maaida 5: Verse 116)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com


That is the verse you are talking about and it was not talking about trinity.. some sect took Mary as a deity by constructing a statue of her and bowing for it... and some worship Jesus as God Almighty (Co-equal)...

Not only Allah or muslims says the doctrine of trinity is false it is just not a mere coincidence that even some Christians sect rejects it the Jews rejects it, it was copied from a Roman concept this is not an Abrahamic concept..
The trinity doctrine is deeper than what trinitarian Christians want the world to believe....

Why not quote the Bible book of Luke 4:16-21 compare to Isaiah 61:1-2, if anyone wants to continue arguing afterwards then it's better to leave and allow them fetch followers for themselves.
Isaiah's prophecies said a lot about Jesus of Nazareth which the Jews knew and witnessed the fulfilment in the first century. Isaiah 9:6
The only reason why they rejected and hated him with passion is their selfish nepotistic ambition, they wanted the Messiah to come fight all powerful nations and hand over world dominance to them since the scriptures correlates the Messiah's powerful rule with that of King David and they believe the Messiah will be a hundred times more powerful than David after all David referred to him as Lord {Psalms 110:1} but Jesus came preaching about forgiveness and praying for one's enemies {Matthew 5:43-48} that's why they hated him intensely.
Moreover Jesus arrived when Romans were colonizing the Jews so it's like a slap on their face that their long awaited Messiah now arrived only to start preaching instead of conquering all the nations most especially Rome! Daniel 2:44
That's why the Jewish nation rejected Jesus otherwise they would have been so proud of him if he danced to their tune as they wanted to make him King and support him in fighting their enemies! John 6:15
God bless you and may you have PEACE!

GeneralDae:

Isaiah 53 is about suffering messaiah bearing the sin of the nation isreal. There were two types of servants used interchangeably in Isaiah, Israel and the Israel's messaiah representing Isreal. Isaiah 49v1-6 for example is about a person, so also Isaiah 53.

haekymbahd:
Allah SWT said:

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?' He will say, Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."
(QS. Al-Maaida 5: Verse 116)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com


That is the verse you are talking about and it was not talking about trinity.. some sect took Mary as a deity by constructing a statue of her and bowing for it... and some worship Jesus as God Almighty...

Not only Allah or muslims says the doctrine of trinity is false it is just not a mere coincidence that even some Christians sect rejects it the Jews rejects it, it was copied from a Roman concept this is not an Abrahamic concept..

This you have written here is just Taqqiya nothing more. An attempt to change an obvious goof into something less grievous. Unfortunately, even if we accept your narrative as true, you and the Qur'an still err seriously.
1. Trinity is NOT and neither 3 Gods NOR association of partners with God. Trinity is NOT God plus some other entities as the Qur'an has described.

Trinity says:
God is the Father!
God is the Word!
God is the Holy Spirit!

In other words, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are three dimensions of God. There is no true Christian who believes in
i. God having a partner
ii. God being three
This is a big error in the Qur'an and from Allah.

2. The Qur'an and Allah actually misunderstood what trinity is irrespective of Quran 5:116.

Qur'an 4:171 says
"...And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. "

Do not say three whats? Is this not saying Christians serve three Gods?

How about Quran 5:72-75
".....They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three ." And there is no god except one God."

Allah is the third of which three? Can you please explain?

Can you see that Allah, the Qur'an and Muslims are guilty of misunderstanding?

Stop the Taqqiya, some of us know better than what you think.

For your information, Jehovahs Witness organisation is almost exactly equivalent to the Ahmadiyah of Islam. Are you an Ahmadi? Do you accept their doctrines?

haekymbahd:

The trinity doctrine is deeper than what trinitarian Christians want the world to believe....

Of course the doctrine of God is far much deeper than anyone can think.

Even in Islam, the doctrine of Duality (at the least of man) is unknowingly taught. But because rather than to think, memorisation will not help you comprehend what you recite.

If you think I lie, you know what to do!

shadeyinka:

This you have written here is just Taqqiya nothing more. An attempt to change an obvious goof into something less grievous. Unfortunately, even if we accept your narrative as true, you and the Qur'an still err seriously.
1. Trinity is NOT and neither 3 Gods NOR association of partners with God. Trinity is NOT God plus some other entities as the Qur'an has described.

Trinity says:
God is the Father!
God is the Word!
God is the Holy Spirit!

In other words, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are three dimensions of God. There is no true Christian who believes in
i. God having a partner
ii. God being three
This is a big error in the Qur'an and from Allah.

2. The Qur'an and Allah actually misunderstood what trinity is irrespective of Quran 5:116.

Qur'an 4:171 says
"...And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. "

Do not say three whats? Is this not saying Christians serve three Gods?

How about Quran 5:72-75
".....They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three ." And there is no god except one God."

Allah is the third of which three? Can you please explain?

Can you see that Allah, the Qur'an and Muslims are guilty of misunderstanding?

Stop the Taqqiya, some of us know better than what you think.

According to trinity The Father, Word (Jesus], and holy spirit are different personalities but they are all God...

It is believed that Jesus sits at the right hand side of the father meaning they are not the same being...

Jesus said another comforter will come after him and Christians believe it is the holy spirit meaning he Jesus is not the holy spirit...

John 16
13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].

If the holy spirit is God definitely he would speak on his own authority he won't for the Father to speak before he relays the message...



You are talking about dimensions of God that Father, Jesus, and holy spirit is the same being...

How are they not Three?

haekymbahd:
According to trinity The Father, Word (Jesus], and holy spirit are different personalities but they are all God...

It is believed that Jesus sits at the right hand side of the father meaning they are not the same being...

Jesus said another comforter will come after him and Christians believe it is the holy spirit meaning he Jesus is not the holy spirit...

John 16
13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].

If the holy spirit is God definitely he would speak on his own authority he won't for the Father to speak before he relays the message...



You are talking about dimensions of God that Father, Jesus, and holy spirit is the same being...

How are they not Three?

In fact, Jesus said all manner of sin against God will be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which has no forgiveness even till eternity). But not withstanding,

Will you permit me to use Islam to explain trinity to you?

MaxInDHouse:
Why not quote the Bible book of Luke 4:16-21 compare to Isaiah 61:1-2, if anyone wants to continue arguing afterwards then it's better to leave and allow them fetch followers for themselves.
Isaiah's prophecies said a lot about Jesus of Nazareth which the Jews knew and witnessed the fulfilment in the first century. Isaiah 9:6
The only reason why they rejected and hated him with passion is their selfish nepotistic ambition, they wanted the Messiah to come fight all powerful nations and hand over world dominance to them since the scriptures correlates the Messiah's powerful rule with that of King David and they believe the Messiah will be a hundred times more powerful than David after all David referred to him as Lord {Psalms 110:1} but Jesus came preaching about forgiveness and praying for one's enemies {Matthew 5:43-48} that's why they hated him intensely.
Moreover Jesus arrived when Romans were colonizing the Jews so it's like a slap on their face that their long awaited Messiah now arrived only to start preaching instead of conquering all the nations most especially Rome! Daniel 2:44
That's why the Jewish nation rejected Jesus otherwise they would have been so proud of him if he danced to their tune as they wanted to make him King and support him in fighting their enemies! John 6:15
God bless you and may you have PEACE!

All this long write up. Let's go back to origin.
Did biblical Jesus really fulfill the requirements of
a Messiah?

GeneralDae:

Isaiah 53 is about suffering messaiah bearing the sin of the nation isreal. There were two types of servants used interchangeably in Isaiah, Israel and the Israel's messaiah representing Isreal. Isaiah 49v1-6 for example is about a person, so also Isaiah 53.

Stop confusing yourself. It's simple English.
Take time and study for yourself. Isaiah 53:1-12
is talking about a suffering servant Israel in the Messianic era.

Maybe a lot of mistranslation made you divide the servant into two as far as Isaiah 53 is concerned

["

The Messiah is Bible's main topic!
So everything you read from Genesis to Revelation is about Jesus Christ of Nazareth, what causes your confusion is he is fulfilling his Messianic role gradually not at one particular time.
For your information the angel who often represent JEHOVAH when leading the Israelites through the wilderness is Jesus.
His birth, ministry, death and resurrection is just parts of his Messianic role, he will later come and destroy all rebellious humans. But before then there must be a global campaign and warning that's why he must serve as a Wonderful Counselor during which time he will prove to be a Mighty God his sacrificial death gave him the right to possess all obedient mankind and replacing Adam to become our Everlasting Father and lastly when he has completed his Messianic role and made PEACE reign throughout the earth he will be crowned as the Prince of Peace! Isaiah 9:6-7

So don't think Jesus has fulfilled all his Messianic role the first time he came to earth.

Today he is gathering obedient mankind together as ONE BIG and HAPPY FAMILY OF PEACE LOVING WORSHIPERS but only the meek ones can grasp this! Psalms 37:9-11 compare to Matthew 5:5

So whether you accept this truth or not God is using Jesus to accomplish so many things, it's either you believe (trust) in him or PERISH! John 3:16

Meanwhile i'll give you a homework, go out there and find an organized people worshiping God in PEACE where Racism or Politics have no impact on their worship as ONE! Revelations 6:3-4

Jman24:

All this long write up. Let's go back to origin.
Did biblical Jesus really fulfill the requirements of
a Messiah?

MaxInDHouse:
The Messiah is Bible's main topic!
So everything you read from Genesis to Revelation is about Jesus Christ of Nazareth, what causes your confusion is he is fulfilling his Messianic role gradually not at one particular time.
For your information the angel who often represent JEHOVAH when leading the Israelites through the wilderness is Jesus.
His birth, ministry, death and resurrection is just parts of his Messianic role, he will later come and destroy all rebellious humans. But before then there must be a global campaign and warning that's why he must serve as a Wonderful Counselor during which time he will prove to be a Mighty God his sacrificial death gave him the right to possess all obedient mankind and replacing Adam to become our Everlasting Father and lastly when he has completed his Messianic role and made PEACE reign throughout the earth he will be crowned as the Prince of Peace! Isaiah 9:6-7

So don't think Jesus has fulfilled all his Messianic role the first time he came to earth.

Today he is gathering obedient mankind together as ONE BIG and HAPPY FAMILY OF PEACE LOVING WORSHIPERS but only the meek ones can grasp this! Psalms 37:9-11 compare to Matthew 5:5

So whether you accept this truth or not God is using Jesus to accomplish so many things, it's either you believe (trust) in him or PERISH! John 3:16

Meanwhile i'll give you a homework, go out there and find an organized people worshiping God in PEACE where Racism or Politics have no influence on them! Revelations 6:3-4

Another long one.
Simple question. Did biblical Jesus meet the requirements of the Messiah?

YES he did!

Jman24:

Another long one.
Simple question. Did biblical Jesus meet the requirements of the Messiah?

shadeyinka:

In fact, Jesus said all manner of sin against God will be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which has no forgiveness even till eternity). But not withstanding,

Will you permit me to use Islam to explain trinity to you?

well you can use anything

MaxInDHouse:
YES he did!

you know he didn't

Few Jews in the first century strongly believe he did that's why billions today are shouting his name up and down!

Jman24:

you know he didn't

MaxInDHouse:
Few Jews in the first century strongly believe he did that's why billions today are shouting his name up and down!

Who needs validation of few Jews. I have told you severally I don't hold all this stories dearly but I argue based on the facts available in same good book

@ highlight
Your argument will ever remain mere argument unless it's taking effect!
Without any positive result your argument is worthless!

Jman24:

Who needs validation of few Jews. I have told you severally I don't hold all this stories dearly but I argue based on the facts available in same good book

haekymbahd:
well you can use anything

I hope this is a correct view of your belief: if not, you can correct me?
According to you Muslims, when a man dies, two angels will come to him and ask him three basic question (some hadiths ev even say say 5)
i. What is your religion?
ii. Who was your prophet?
iii. Who is your Lord?
If he replies appropriately as : Islam-Prophet Mohammed-Allah, his state in the grave would be made pleasant. Otherwise, it would be made difficult.

Is this a correct representation of what you believe?

Jman24:




So in essence, biblical Jesus was in agreement that to love the only invisible God is worth more than burnt offerings and sacrifices(plural) according to verse 33.

So where did the Romans later get the idea that you need an ultimate sacrifice to reconcile self with God? When your only reconciliation is to Love God?

Jesus came to show us the way to salvation and paradise.
John 3:12-15:
"If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

And about the BLOOD: Jesus said!!

Mar 14:24:
"And he said to them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

Heb 9:22:
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission of sin."


You err greatly!

shadeyinka:

Jesus came to show us the way to salvation and paradise.
John 3:12-15:
"If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

And about the BLOOD: Jesus said!!

Mar 14:24:
"And he said to them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

Heb 9:22:
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission of sin."


You err greatly!

Who sent him? If you say God....which prophet did he use to inform and prepare the people about it?


Amos 3:7 says " God does nothing without first revealing it to his servant the prophet"

shadeyinka:


I hope this is a correct view of your belief: if not, you can correct me?
According to you Muslims, when a man dies, two angels will come to him and ask him three basic question (some hadiths ev even say say 5)
i. What is your religion?
ii. Who was your prophet?
iii. Who is your Lord?
If he replies appropriately as : Islam-Prophet Mohammed-Allah, his state in the grave would be made pleasant. Otherwise, it would be made difficult.

Is this a correct representation of what you believe?

ok you can ride on

haekymbahd:
ok you can ride on

Thanks for your response!

I have no intention of using it against you. I just wanted us to be on the same page.

Now, suppose either:
1. I was eaten up by 20 lions
2. I told my people not to bury me so that I don't have a grave and that they should burn me to smokes in a furnace
3. I told my people to put my corpse in a freezer for a thousand years
4. I told my people not to bury me nor leave my side so that because of their presence, the angels wouldn't be able to ask any questions etc

If I did these So that I can escape the torment of the grave, can I escape the questioning of the two Angels?

sonmvayina:


Who sent him? If you say God....which prophet did he use to inform and prepare the people about it?


Amos 3:7 says " God does nothing without first revealing it to his servant the prophet"

I don't think I understand you!
Who sent who?