havila,

i thought u have changed but u never did, u bloody slowpoke, it has dawned on me that your lack of manner of approach is still haunting u and eating deep into your flesh.

i wont be suprised if you likewise go the same way u addressed issues in other threads.(u got what i meant)

Hmm Havila,we have someone about to explode.
Take it easy babs,don't give yourself unnecessary stress over your fellow man.
count to 10 and take a deep breathe.
No need for the fumes out your ears

If you all read the scriptures with open mind may be we should not be here exchanging harsh words. I have noticed the deliberate effort to always translate Quranic quotes upside down without any consideration for sincere analysis. Despite my belief that the bible is adulterated i never seek to ridicule some of your quotes from it as a sign of respect for what you choose to believe. What am saying here is next time you come across Quranic passage, please try to understand the meaning very well even if you disagree.

@belloti,

I had an Islamic background, and if anyone should know that the Qur'an is a book of twisted tales and denials of authentic truths, then I should know.

Many Muslims would often appeal to "logic" as a way of understanding the Qur'an and the Hadith; and when one reads the clear meaning of a text, Muslim apologists are first to cry out that people either quote texts out of contexts or haven't done an analysis.

No one with an open mind and good brains will fail to see who Muhammad was and what he sold the Arabs in his refined paganism. That is why I opted to join the Forum and debate these issues so that people will know what they do not often realise about Islam.

belloti:

If you all read the scriptures with open mind may be we should not be here exchanging harsh words. I have noticed the deliberate effort to always translate Quranic quotes upside down without any consideration for sincere analysis. Despite my belief that the bible is adulterated i never seek to ridicule some of your quotes from it as a sign of respect for what you choose to believe. What am saying here is next time you come across Quranic passage, please try to understand the meaning very well even if you disagree.

1. This does not make sense! How can you claim to "respect" the bible and on the other hand cling to your false and hypocritical belief that it is adulterated? What is your proof? How do you know? Where is the original and what happened to it?

2. And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

Does the above make sense to you? How else do we interprete that bundle of error?

koranomathematics

babyosisi:

koranomathematics

Or what of Islamathematics!

It seems to me that we all have our pre-conceived notions and ideas. Truth be told, there is nothing

wrong with that but i sincerely believe that we should put forward our arguments with less venom,

minimal personal attacks and respect for one another's religion.

Obviously the most analytical minds lose their analytical prowess when it comes to religion.

I am a Christian, I believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ but I also believe that trying to ram this

down another's throat will surely leave a bad taste.

I pray God to guide us all aright.

GOD BLESS US ALL!!!!

Please remember that Christains have been here a lot longer than Islam 600 years to be exact.  There shopuld be respect of seniority.  Also remember it is not the Christain religion that is the largest terror the world is currently seeing.  You kill innocents in the name of God.  Do we need to remember the horror in the North of Nigeria?  Not to talk of the rest of the world.  Please don't make pointless attacks because your religion teaches you mindless violence.

i m fed up with every crazy christian in here telling me they have an islamic background. liars, prove it.\stop lying pls
it's all luies and even if true, who taught u islam? a pastor?lol.
get a life shahan.

islampride:

i m fed up with every crazy christian in here telling me they have an islamic background. liars, prove it.\stop lying please
it's all luies and even if true, who taught u islam? a pastor?lol.
get a life shahan.

@islampride,

I knew that was meant for me, and no worries if you hadn't typed my name at the end. You may have issues with me, but it doesn't take a dot away from my peace as a Christian. You only manage to prove yourself a restless soul on every thread you've visited - is that why you're irate that I left Islam that is meant only for retards like you?

I have a life now - in Jesus Christ: and thank God I don't have to "prove" my Islamic background for your brigands to seek my life with Muhammad's dagger.

David, i dont have any respect for bible but i do respect those who choose to lean on it. And you shahan if what you ve just said is the truth, am very disappointed. But i believe its basically a result of insufficient knowledge to be modest. i can only advice you to read and learn more about Islam and God and dont get carried away by the worldly temptations and negative propaganda about Islam. May Almighty Allah continue to guide all of us to the right path. Amen

@belloti,

If for anything sake you think I made a wrong choice by becoming a Christian, that says a lot about where you guys are coming from. How in heaven's name could anyone even dare to defend the atrocities of Muhammad under the face of human morality, let alone that he came in the name of religion?

There's no need for you to be disappointed - no sane person with an iota of a moral conscience will take the crap and lies that Muhammad propagated to people who know no better, and I'll just advise that you take off your religious goggles and see things exactly as they are before it is too late.

    . You have started a familiar tune. Arguement now is essentially baseless. we will just carry on in a vicious circle

Well, since you modified yours above, here's what I think: rascals and R-IQs don't need to be treated with the same slobbering mentality they exhibit. You could do one thing, though: ignore my lines if you think they're too piqued for your taste, and let those who started the wahala be served their own syrup for their malady.



_{. . . it doesn't mean you're not a gentleman because of Islam}. 

You see Shahan, my point is; whenever we argue here, there is always this tendency to attack our Holy Prophet (SAW), not because its in line with the arguement no, just because it pleases you guys to do so. As i was referring to your conversion to christian, you promptly responded with an attack to our very sensitive area. Cant we talk at our own level without mentioning of the Rasul?

@belloti,

I understand your point, no vex. Me and you at our own level, we can yarn just about anything, slap each other and let it pass with good smiles, trust me!

But how do I discuss publicly affecting issues like Islam especially with Muslims and not mention the Rasul? Even more to the point, how do I begin to understand that the things he did and taught are not grievous, but are to be euphemized in political cosmetics? Sometimes, I just feel like posting the relevant texts without commentary and let others fill in the gaps. Either way, the one you call rasul is not what you think he is in reality.

Shahan, that was palatable. i was stretching out my hands for a hug.

I understand your points. But The Holy Prophet SAW, mean so much to so many different people. Its all a matter of personal conviction. Christians and Muslims are at the two extreme poles of passion for the man. Unlike how we muslims loves Jesus and his mother Mary, Christian never even want to understand the real issues about the rasul. Islam as a word means peace and as a religion means a complete submission to the will of the almighty. The Holy Quran is the Guidance, the Hadith and Sunna are examples. The whole aim is for us to be the best human being we can be. Loving, Caring, Trustworthy, Honest, Disciplined, etc. If you listen to negative remarks concocted by enemies of islam without properly searching for the truth you may never understand Islam. And i wish you do.

@belloti,

I quite understand where you're coming from. However, there's something our Muslim friends have failed to see - that is, the condition of the human heart as affected by sin. No good deed (Loving, Caring, Trustworthy, Honest, Disciplined, etc) is ever going to renovate the intrinsic nature of sinful man without the redeeming work of a Saviour.

Have you ever wondered why the Rasul struggled with sin? You and I know for a certain that, not only was he self-confessed as a sinner, but that also he confessed to turning in repentance in such a degree that goes over the top. What then is the benefit derived from the word "Islam" as peace if the Rasul himself did not have a conscience and heart at peace with righteousness? If a good standing with the Almighty sin-hating God is predicated on merely good deeds, then Islam is no different from the multiplied religions of the world that do the same.

I enjoy the peace and calm exuded in your rejoinders; but much more than that, it's my honest hope and prayer that you and many others will consider the free gift of salvation in the sinless Saviour - the Lord Jesus Christ! The gift of His grace truly goes to the root of man's problems: the sinful nature. It is not only deeds that need to be taken care of; more than that is the source of our deeds - the sin in our hearts.

That is what Christ came to deal with, so that we might truly be set free and come to know the love of God to man. If you'd only ask Him, you'll  find that you're only seconds away from the most wonderful prospect of life! May it be yours.

Salaam, and with it a hug.

With due respect Shahan, i ve come to realised that there are just too many slogans in christianity and its like a good christian need to be some kind of an orator. Its either salvation, sin of the heart, carnal issues, or saviour of sort. The whole issues are shrouded in some kind complex dogma. All i am saying is that we are bound by the truth and we shall all first of all be sincere about ourselves. lets discard all these sweet fantacies about christ being this or being that, what about us? what are we? We were all born humans before decided to go on our respective ego rides and critical evaluation of others who feel or think differently from us.

The point is there is a God somewhere that we should all worship delligently and with all sincerity.

@belloti,

If you are in search for that God "somewhere" whom we must all worship dilligently and with all sincerity, then understand that you will never find Him as long as you ignore the question of who actually is Jesus Christ.

That you may have the misconception that Christianity is shrouded in some kind of complex dogma shows you haven't taken the time to examine the claims of Christ Himself, and you're basing all judgement solely on what little of the Qur'an you understand. There's no ambiguity in Christianity except the ones people want to make for themselves.

belloti:

lets discard all these sweet fantacies about christ being this or being that, what about us? what are we? We were all born humans before decided to go on our respective ego rides and critical evaluation of others who feel or think differently from us.

There are no fancies about Christ, I assure you. If anyone has the guts, they should pick up the Bible and ask themselves: what really did the Bible say about Christ before Muhammad came denying those very claims?

You really can't go round this issue; and as long as Islam has no answer for the root of man's problems (the sinful heart), then it really can't provide what it doesn't have.

Cheers.

belloti:

Unlike how we muslims loves Jesus and his mother Mary, Christian never even want to understand the real issues about the rasul. Islam as a word means peace and as a religion means a complete submission to the will of the almighty. The Holy Quran is the Guidance, the Hadith and Sunna are examples. The whole aim is for us to be the best human being we can be. Loving, Caring, Trustworthy, Honest, Disciplined, etc. If you listen to negative remarks concocted by enemies of islam without properly searching for the truth you may never understand Islam. And i wish you do.

- You are simply being dishonest here. It is certainly untrue that muslims "love" Jesus, if they did they would not be forever hunting his followers to kill!

- The above aims you indicated are certainly not islamic traits. From the time of mohammed till today, "love, caring, trustworthy, honest" cannot truthfully be ascribed to a real muslim! you do not bomb 3000 people in one day out of love and care! If the prophet admitted that lies were allowed to decieve and ambush the enemy (see christians), then you cannot claim to be trustworthy and honest!

belloti:

With due respect Shahan, i ve come to realised that there are just too many slogans in christianity and its like a good christian need to be some kind of an orator. Its either salvation, sin of the heart, carnal issues, or saviour of sort. The whole issues are shrouded in some kind complex dogma. All i am saying is that we are bound by the truth and we shall all first of all be sincere about ourselves. lets discard all these sweet fantacies about christ being this or being that, what about us? what are we? We were all born humans before decided to go on our respective ego rides and critical evaluation of others who feel or think differently from us.

The point is there is a God somewhere that we should all worship delligently and with all sincerity.

- There is no complex dogma in Christ! there are no complex "slogans" to memorize unlike in islam. It is absolutely of no relevance how many scriptures you can quote as long as Christ is NOT the Lord and Saviour of your life! Even the unlearned can be saved, the poor who cannot afford a bible, all are welcome at the masters feet! Christianity is a relationship based on trust between man and his maker, it has nothing to do with being able to speak high sounding words to befuddle your neighbour.

- the question is not about the presence or absence of a God. The real question is Who is that God and do you honestly know Him?

davidylan:

- the question is not about the presence or absence of a God. The real question is Who is that God and do you honestly know Him?

Apt!

David, i think i do. But thats a matter for another day

belloti:

D

. Unlike how we muslims loves Jesus and his mother Mary, Christian never even want to understand the real issues about the rasul.

now see what Jesus says.

Jhn 14:15 "If you love Me, keep* My commandments.

and he goes further to say this.

[b]Jhn 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Jhn 15:11 "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
Jhn 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
Jhn 15:15 "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Jhn 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
Jhn 15:17 "These things I command you, that you love one another.
Jhn 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. [/b]

Let me leave some quotations from the Koran that has led several Muslims to Christ,one was on TBN the other day,now a pastor in Texas,he started reading the Bible after hearing the Koran declare that those who follow Jesus are greater than those who don't and he sought from the Bible who this Jesus really is.

The 3 most popular translations of the Koran are quoted for better clarity.


003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of [b]a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). [/b]

003.046
YUSUFALI: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
PICKTHAL: He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
SHAKIR: And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.

003.047
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
PICKTHAL: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

003.048
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
PICKTHAL: And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
SHAKIR: And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.

003.049
YUSUFALI: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
PICKTHAL: And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
SHAKIR: And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

003.050
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
PICKTHAL: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
SHAKIR: And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

003.051
YUSUFALI: "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

003.052
YUSUFALI: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
PICKTHAL: But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
SHAKIR: But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.

003.053
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
PICKTHAL: Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).
SHAKIR: Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the messenger, so write us down with those who bear witness.

003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
PICKTHAL: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
SHAKIR: And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

003.055
[b]YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith,[/color] to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve [color=#990000]and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. [/b]

babyosisi:

Let me leave some quotations from the Koran that has led several Muslims to Christ,one was on TBN the other day,now a pastor in Texas,he started reading the Bible after hearing the Koran declare that those who follow Jesus are greater than those who don't and he sought from the Bible who this Jesus really is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
003.055
[b]YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith,[/color] to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve [color=#990000]and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. [/b]

@babyosisi,
Thanks, while it is true that, thankfully, these passages make some muslims to want to know more about Jesus Christ; but I can tell you that was not muhammed's intention for "receiving" these passages; if you know what I mean by "receiving."

It was in his quest to convince the early Christians in his area at that time to accept his "new religion" that made him "receive" this passage. He is capable of any suitable revelations to achieve a purpose, which at that time was to secure followership at all cost including deception. You know he also "received" revelation of the 3 "daughter" goddesses of Allah (called al-Lat, al-Uzzah and Manat) in order to convince the polytheistic Arab pagans to accept his new ideology of "pseudo-monotheism" called Islam at that time. The guy na just one 419 prophet of the devil!

Havila:

You know he also "received" revelation of the 3 "daughter" goddesses of Allah (called al-Lat, al-Uzzah and Manat) in order to convince the polytheistic Arab pagans to accept his new ideology of "pseudo-monotheism" called Islam at that time. The guy na just one 419 prophet of the devil!

The initials A.L.M. in Qur'an.2 vs.1 is highly suggestive of those 3 daughter goddesses. No sincere Islamic scholar has been able to unravel the mystery of those letters; and the suggestions by Pickthal and Shakir that it is "Alif. Lam. Mim" is disingenuous and simply cutting corners to protect the religion from its obvious polytheistic paganism. Reading the whole chapter (286 verses) reveals several speakers besides the chief idol *allah. Sample verse 252 by Pickthal and Shakir:

PICKTHAL: These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth, and lo! thou art of the number of (Our) messengers;
SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah: We recite them to you with truth; and most surely you are (one) of the messengers.

@Shahan,
At the risk of going off-topic; with regard to you guys discussion on whether women should preach or not, thought I dont feel like contributing but I believe and totally support women preaching in churches. Using Titus and Timothy alone will confound other scriptural references in support because issue of periodic and contextual tradition comes in; but really I dont want to go into it. Personally, I am indifferent to who is preaching, male or female, but concerned about the message being preached. e.g the current head of the episcopal church in the US is a woman, I dont mind but had it been that I am Anglican, I will disagree with her ministry and belief such as support for ordination of gay priests, and gay marriage among others
By The Way, you are such a gifted and brilliant bible teacher from your various discussions, if someone like you refuses to teach in your church because of your gender, did God make a mistake in giving you such wisdom and knowledge (probably more than most male folks in your church) for the edification of the church? Definitely not!!

Lol, @Havila!

Okay, so that I don't risk another off-topic gist on this thread, I've posted a reply at this one: Shahan, A Female? Wow!.

Cheers.

babysin, shan etc

thank God u believe in the Quran.

u really enjoyed the Quranic description about the birth of jesus. can you please refer to your bible and post it here where it was said that HOLY SPIRIT WILL OVERSHADOW THEE , AND YOU WILL CONCEIVE A CHILD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

please go over the two and tell which one you will refer you kid to read. maybe the one having holy spirit 'over shadowing Mary' and the one 'having son of the holy spirit'. (holy spirit being the father)

[b]Quote from: Havila on Today at 02:09:07 AMYou know he also "received" revelation of the 3 "daughter" goddesses of Allah (called al-Lat, al-Uzzah and Manat) in order to convince the polytheistic Arab pagans to accept his new ideology of "pseudo-monotheism" called Islam at that time. The guy na just one 419 prophet of the devil!The initials A.L.M. in Qur'an.2 vs.1 is highly suggestive of those 3 daughter goddesses. No sincere Islamic scholar has been able to unravel the mystery of those letters; and the suggestions by Pickthal and Shakir that it is "Alif. Lam. Mim" is disingenuous and simply cutting corners to protect the religion from its obvious polytheistic paganism. Reading the whole chapter (286 verses) reveals several speakers besides the chief idol *allah. Sample verse 252 by Pickthal and Shakir:Well, confused shan and the rest,Muslims believe in jesus as the servant and prophet of Allah but not as a saviour, son of God, dying for your sin, crucified etc. if you are not satisfied, you can create thread based on the above by picking any of those I mentioned and we back it up.PICKTHAL: These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth, and lo! thou art of the number of (Our) messengers; SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah: We recite them to you with truth; and most surely you are (one) of the messengers.[/b]

U r disturbed or confused. Uve been explained to in one of the threads but u still come here and feigned ignorance.

now to the issue of trinity, take your time to read and i pray Allah open your heart to the truth.

Lets look at thisDictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and engrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."

Many of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity which have been for many centuries taken on blind faith (those which differ from the beliefs of Muslims) are now beginning to be challenged by some of the foremost scholars and religious leaders of Christianity today.

An example of this can be found in the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the  heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read that a British television pole of 31 of the 39  Anglican Bishops in England found 19 to believe that it is not necessary for Christians to believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, but only "His supreme agent" (his messenger) as taught by Muslims for 1400 years now and testified to by John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you hast sent."

The general impression among Christians today is that the difference between today's "Christianity" and Paganism is so great that any similarity between them is scarcely recognizable. This, however, is far from the truth. The more knowledgeable a Christian becomes with today's "Christianity," the more they realize that it is the end result of a continuous effort to appease the pagan Romans in order to gain their support. This has regrettably resulted in the foisting upon Jesus  and his apostles the pre-existent beliefs of ancient paganism.

The established beliefs of these pagans were "inserted" into the word of God and its religious practices through the agency of many centuries of divine "inspiration" to the Church. The knowledgeable Christian scholars are the most well-acquainted with this factThe great luminary of the Church, Saint Augustine (354-430 C.E.), is quoted to have said "The same thing which is now called CHRISTIAN RELIGION existed among the ancients. They have begun to call Christian the true religion which existed before." "Our love for what is old, our reverence for what our fathers used, makes us keep still in the church, and on the very altar cloths, symbols which would excite the smile of an Oriental, and lead him to wonder why we send missionaries to his land, while cherishing his faith in ours"

James Bonwick Let us start with the very symbol of Christianity itself, the "cross." The Cross: Fish: Symbol of last supper It is well known that the first symbol of Christianity was that of a fish. On sacramental cups, seals, and lamps the Holy Spirit was symbolized by a dove and Christ by a fish (perhaps because at the time, fish was one of the elements of the sacred meal) or by a shepherd carrying a sheep on his shoulders (from Luke 15:3-7) The cross was not adopted until long after the departure of Jesus. One of the main reasons for this was the fact that he who dies on the cross is considered cursed by God (Galatians 3:13). Current historical knowledge recognizes the fact that the cross was well recognized as a religious symbol long before the advent of Jesus .

It was adored in India as the symbol of the Hindu god Agni, the "light of the world." It was placed in the hands of Siva, Brahma, Vishnu, Krishna, Tvashtri, and Jama. The cross was also well known among the Buddhists from ancient times and the followers of Lama of Thibet.

The ancient Egyptians also adopted the cross as a religious symbol of their pagan gods. Countless Egyptian drawings depict themselves holding crosses in their hands. Among them, the Egyptian savior Horus is depicted holding a cross in his hand. He is also depicted as an infant sitting on his mother's knee with a cross on the seat they occupy. The most common of the crosses used by these pagan Egyptians, the CRUX ANSATA, was later adopted by the Christians. The Egyptian savior, Osiris, the Egyptian god of the dead and the underworld, is sometimes represented holding out this cross to mortals signifying that this person has discarded mortality for the life to come. Another cross has been unearthed in Ireland. It belongs to the cult of the Persian god of the sun "Mithra" and bears a crucified effigy.

The Greeks and Romans too adopted the cross as their religious symbol many centuries before Christianity did the same. An ancient inscription in Tessaly is accompanied by a Calvary cross. More crosses can be found to adorn the tomb of king Midas in Phrygia. The above references may be referred to for many more examples.

The "Trinity":
Now let us study the "Trinity" and its roots in ancient pagan worship. The "Trinity" of Christendom, as defined in the creed of Nicea, is a merging of three distinct entities into one single entity, while remaining three distinct entities. We are told to speak of the three gods as one god, and never as three gods which would be considered heresy (Isaiah 43:10). They are considered to be co-eternal, co-substantial, and co-equal. However, only the first was self existent. The others preceded from the first. This Neo-Platonic philosophical doctrine has its roots not in the inspiration of God, but in ancient paganism.

Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Deities were always trinities of some kind or consisted of successive emanation in threes. In India we find the doctrine of the divine trinity called "Tri-murti" (Three-forms) consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. It is an inseparable unity though three in form. Worshipers are told to worship them as one deity. Such concepts posed no problem to the logic of a Hindu worshipper since they were already used to worshipping gods with the body of a man and the head of an elephant(Ganesh), or monkey-faced gods (Hanuman), or gods with six arms, and so forth. Remember, classical Hinduism dates back to at least 500BC, with roots extending as far back as 2000BC. The Brahmas also have their trinity.

In their trinity, Vajrapani, Manjusri, and Avalokitesvara form a divine union of three gods into one god called "Buddha." The citizens of China and Japan also worship Buddha, but they know him as "Fo." When they worship him they say "Fo, is one god but has three forms."

The ancient Egyptians also worshipped a trinity. Their symbol of a wing, a globe, and a serpent is supposed to have stood for the different attributes of their god.

The Greeks also had their trinities. When making their sacrifices to their gods, they would sprinkle holy water on the altar three times, they would then sprinkle the people three times also. Frankincense was then taken with three fingers and strewed upon the alter three times. All of this was done because the oracle had proclaimed that all sacred things ought to be in threes.

Remember that the philosophy of these people (The Greeks) is what was primarily responsible for defining the Christian "Trinitarian" nature of God. This was done through the writings of the Greek philosopher Plato regarding his "Logos" ("word". Further, remember that the Gospels of the Bible were named the "Greek Gospels" for a reason: they were written in their language and based upon their philosophy.

The works of Plato were extensively studied by the Church Fathers, one of whom joyfully recognizes in the great teacher, the schoolmaster who, in the fullness of time, was destined to educate the heathen for Christ, as Moses did the Jews. The celebrated passage : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God" is a fragment of some Pagan treatise on the Platonic philosophy, evidently written by Irenaeus. It is quoted by Amelius, a Pagan philosopher as strictly applicable to the Logos, or Mercury, the Word, apparently as an honorable testimony borne to the Pagan deity by a barbarian, We see then that the title "Word" or "Logos," being applied to Jesus, is another piece of Pagan amalgamation with Christianity. It did not receive its authorized Christian form until the middle of the second century after Christ.

The ancient pagan Romans worshipped a Trinity. An oracle is said to have declared that there was 'First God, then the Word, and with them the Spirit'. Here we see the distinctly enumerated, God, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, in ancient Rome, where the most celebrated temple of this capital - that of Jupiter Capitolinus - was dedicated to three deities, which three deities were honored with joint worship."
Bible Myths and their parallels in other religions, pp. 375-376.

Trinities were not confined to these groups alone, but the Persians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Scandinavians, the Druids, the inhabitants of Siberia, the ancient Mexicans, the Peruvians, and many others, all worshipped "Trinitarian" pagan deities (among a great multitude of other gods) long before the council of Nicea of 325 C.E. officially recognized this to be God's "true" nature.

The Church of the First Three Centuries 1865 Alvan Lamson" . . .

The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal.

This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin." During the first three centuries, Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was coequal, and coeternal with God, or that he was God the Son, they believed that Jesus Christ was subordinate to God, and that he had a beginning, that he was born. Those that believed otherwise were the exception.

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting

"Those Trinitarians who believe that the concept of a Triune God was such an established fact that it was not considered important enough to mention at the time the New Testament was written should be challenged by the remarks of another writer, Harold Brown:""It is a simple fact and an undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian Faith – such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the nature of Christ – were not present in a full and self-defined generally accepted form until the fourth and fifth centuries.

If they are essential today – as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert – it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth century. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?"

A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker"AD 200. .

Noetus had been expelled from the Smyrnaean church for teaching that Christ was the Father, and that the Father himself was born, and suffered, and died."

Man’s Religions John B. Noss 1968"

The controversy first became heated when Apollinarius, a bishop in Syria . . . asserted that Christ could not have been perfect man united with complete God, for then there would not have been one Son of God, but two sons, one by nature and one by adoption, the first with a divine, the second with a human will. Such a thing seemed inconceivable, religiously abhorrent.""Nestorius . . . preached a sermon against calling the virgin Mary ‘the mother of God’ declaring she did not bear a deity, she bore a man,"Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God’s Word.

 New Bible Dictionary 1982"
The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."". . . it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."". . . it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible, . . .""Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the trinity, . . ."

The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism 1995"
. . . scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament."If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then how did the church of the first three centuries get along so well without it? If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then why is it not mentioned in the Bible?

The Encyclopedia Americana 1956
"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian (believing in one God).

The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." The trinity is a deviation from believing in one God; it is a deviation from what the early church taught and it is a deviation from the scripture.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967
"The formulation 'one God in three persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century."

Who is Jesus? Anthony Buzzard
"The Old Testament is a strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there or even in any way shadowed forth, is an assumption that has long held sway in theology, but is utterly without foundation."

The New Encyclopedia Britannica 1976


"Neither the word trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."

The Shema consists of three sections of scripture Deuteronomy 6:4-9, 11:13-21, and Numbers 15:37-41. It is called the Shema after the Hebrew word hear, the first word in Deut. 6:4. The Shema was to be recited twice daily once upon arising and once when going to bed. So the Old Testament Jews would start and finish their day with 'Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.'

The Complete Word Study Old Testament 1994

"To the Jew, (Deut. 6:4-9) this is the most important text in the Old Testament. Jesus himself called the injunction in 6:5 'the first and great commandment' Matt.22:36-38. . . Moses is teaching not only the priority of belief in one God, but also a means to preserve that belief.

As time went on, the proper understanding of the Shema with its spiritual implications was no longer grasped by the people. This absence of saving knowledge became a factor in their spiritual downfall." Whenever God's people forget that there is only one God and they follow after other gods this will result in their downfall. This can be seen time and time again in the Old Testament where God's people forsook the Lord and then evil came upon them. God does not send this evil, but He warns us to stay away from the evil of worshipping more than one God.

Dictionary of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie


"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief.

Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr.

"The New Testament does not contain a formalized explanation of the trinity that uses such words as trinity, three persons, one substance, and the like.

" The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 1976

"The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence. [said Karl Barth]"

Exploring The Christian Faith 1992"

nowhere in the Bible do we find the doctrine of the trinity clearly formulated""People who are using the King James Version might be inclined to point to I John 5:7 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost' But it is now generally recognized that this verse does not belong to the original text of the letter; it is a later insertion.""The theological formulation took place later, after the days of the apostles.""the doctrine of the trinity is not found in the Bible""The doctrine was to develop along mainly Greek lines"

Take note of the words "explicitly and formally", "formalized explanation", "express declaration", and "clearly formulated". These words are indicative of the fact that all the clear verses on the subjects of God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit do not even hint at a trinity. There are only a few verses that seem to hint at a trinity, and then only when they are twisted.

The difficult or unclear verse must always be interpreted in light of the clear verses. If God is a coeternal, coequal, one substance, three-in-one Godhead, trinity, if that is what God really is, then he would have made himself known as such to the first century apostles; they would have made the trinity part of their beliefs teachings and writings. They would have used words like God the Son, coequal, coeternal, one substance, or trinity, but the scripture is devoid of all of these trinitarian words and phrases because the first century apostles did not believe or teach, or write about God being a trinity, or Jesus Christ being God.
But the pagan and Greek and Babylonian religions used those words.

Dictionary Of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie
"The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are Greek philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible.

The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."

The Rise of Christianity W.H.C. Frend 1985
"For him [Clement] the trinity consisted of a hierarchy of three graded beings, and from that concept - derived from Platonism - depended much of the remainder of his theological teaching."

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting"
Eberhard Griesebach, in an acedemic lecture on "Christianity and humanism" delivered in 1938, observed that in its encounter with Greek philosophy Christianity became theology. That was the fall of Christianity.

The Problem thus highlighted stems from the fact that traditional orthodoxy, while it claims to find its origins in scripture, in fact contains elements drawn from a synthesis of Scripture and Neo-Platonism.

The mingling of Hebrew and Greek thinking set in motion first in the second century by an influx of Hellenism through the Church Fathers, whose theology was colored by the Platonists Plotinus and Porphyry.

The effects of the Greek influence are widely recognized by theologians, though they go largely unnoticed by many believers."". . . the Trinity is an unintelligible proposition of platonic mysticisms that three are one and one is three" [quote from Thomas Jefferson] The Greek mythology and pagan religious beliefs were derived from Babylon.

Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel 1870
"The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches . . . This Greek philosopher's (Plato, 4th century BC) conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all ancient (pagan) religions"

The Rise of Christianity W.H.C. Frend 1985"
we find Christianity tending to absorb Greek philosophical values, until by the end of the third century the line between the beliefs of educated Christian and educated pagan in the east would often be hard to draw." The early Christians began mixing Greek and pagan and Babylonian philosophical and religious trinitarian concepts with their Christian doctrine which lead them to begin considering the trinity, and after three centuries that thinking finally took hold. Acts 17:22 says that the Greeks were too superstitious, and I Corinthians 1:22 says that the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom.

The Greeks were too intellectual in their approach to God’s Word. They became wise in their own eyes and the truth of God’s Word became foolishness to them, so they grafted their own superstitious philosophical wisdom into God’s Word and changed the truth into a lie; they changed Son of God to God the Son.

Catholic Encyclopedia 1991

"The term 'Trinity' does not appear in scripture""(The Doctrine of the Trinity) - hammered out over the course of three centuries of doctrinal controversy against modalism and subordinationism" Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr."Roman Catholics . . often claim that the trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was first revealed through the ministry of the church centuries after the Bible was written.

This is in keeping with the Roman Catholic belief that Christian doctrine may be based either on the Bible or on church tradition." The Roman Catholic Church did not get the doctrine of the trinity from the Bible, they hammered out their own theology of what they wanted God to be over several hundred years, and mixed Greek philosophy with Babylonian mystery religion, and their own private interpretations of the Bible.
I Peter 1:20, 21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. People don't respect God’s Word, they are more interested in inventing their own theology by the will of man instead of believing the word of God, they are not interested in rightly dividing God's word of truth.
The trinity is private interpretation and wrong dividing of God's word.

Jesus Christ is not God 1975 Victor Paul Wierwille

"Long before the founding of Christianity the idea of a triune god or a god-in-three persons was a common belief in ancient religions. Although many of these religions had many minor deities, they distinctly acknowledged that there was one supreme God who consisted of three persons or essences. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to represent this three-in-one god, now the symbol of the modern three-in-one believers.""The Hindu trinity was made up of the gods Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. The Greek triad was composed of Zeus, Athena and Apollo.

These three were said by the pagans to 'agree in one.' One of the largest pagan temples built by the Romans was constructed at Ballbek (situated in present day Lebanon) to their trinity of Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. In Babylon the planet Venus was revered as special and was worshipped as a trinity consisting of Venus, the moon and the sun. This triad became the Babylonian holy trinity in the fourteenth century before Christ.

""Although other religions for thousands of years before Christ was born worshipped a triune god, the trinity was not a part of Christian dogma and formal documents of the first three centuries after Christ.""That there was no formal, established doctrine of the trinity until the fourth century is a fully documented historical fact.""Clearly, historians of church dogma and systematic theologians agree that the idea of a Christian trinity was not a part of the first century church.

The twelve apostles never subscribed to it or received revelation about it. So how then did a trinitarian doctrine come about? It gradually evolved and gained momentum in late first, second and third centuries as pagans, who had converted to Christianity, brought to Christianity some of their pagan beliefs and practices."

Who is Jesus? Anthony Buzzard
". . . we shall find not a hint that Jesus believed himself to be an uncreated being who had existed from eternity. Matthew and Luke trace the origin of Jesus to a special act of creation by God when the Messiah’s conception took place in the womb of Mary.

It was this miraculous event which marked the beginning—the genesis, or origin of Jesus of Nazareth" Arius and his followers believed that Jesus Christ was created, that he was not in the beginning with God. They believed that he had a beginning, whereas God has no beginning. This makes Jesus Christ substantially different from God, which means he cannot be of one-substance with God as the trinitarians believe. Documents of the Christian Church 2nd Ed 1963 Henery Bettenson(quotes from Arius and his followers)"If, said he, the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence; hence it is clear that there was a [a time] when the son was not.""The Son of God is from what is not and there was [a time] when he was not; saying also that the Son of God, in virtue of his free will, is capable of evil and good, and calling him a creature and a work.

"The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend

"If the Father begat the son, there must be when he was not. He could not therefore be coeternal with the Father."[said by Arius] Man's Religions 1968 John B. Noss "Arius held that Christ, . . . was a created being; he was made like other creatures out of nothing, . . . The Son, he argued, had a beginning, while God was without beginning."

The Church in History 1964 B. K. Kuiper
"The heathen believe in many gods. Arius thought that to believe that the Son is God as well as that the Father is God would mean that there are two Gods, and that therefore the Christians would be falling back into heathenism.

" Arius believed that Jesus Christ was born, that he had a beginning, he believed that Jesus Christ was the created Son, not the Creator, and for taking the Word of God literally he was excommunicated and anathematized.

Starting with Nimrod in ancient Babylon until today man has stubbornly rebelled against the doctrine of one God.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 34:14a For thou shalt worship no other god:

The trinity is idolatry, it puts Jesus Christ as a god before God.

Forgers of the Word 1983 Victor Paul Wierwille
"To say Jesus Christ is God the Son is idolatry. To say Jesus is the Son of God is truth."
I Samuel 15:23 For Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: The Lord God Almighty, the Creator, the Father of Jesus Christ is one God not three, not three-in-one, not one-in-three, ONE! and only ONE! God is not a three-headed multi-personality trinity.

The Bible clearly refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God 50 times; it never refers to him as God the Son. The phrase, Son of God, is in the genitive case; showing that Jesus Christ originated from and belongs to God. In no way can the Son of God be the same as God the Son, that violates grammar, language and common sense. God the Son is not a biblical term, it does not appear in the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic texts. God the Son is however a Babylonian term.

The Babylonians made Nimrod a god, and when he died they deified his son Tammuz as God the Son. Making God a man and man a god was invented in Babylon. This idolatry and false belief has been carried into pagan religions, and it has worked its way into Christianity as the doctrine of the trinity.

Ravaged By The New Age 1996 Texe Marrs
"Nimrod, the first of the great Babylonian rulers, was also declared to be the first of the man-gods." The Two Babylons 1916 Rev. Alexander Hislop"He was worshipped in Babylon under the name of El-Bar, or 'God the Son'."

It is clear that the trinity does not have a Biblical origin. It can be traced back to ancient Babylon, pagan Greeks and Romans. It was forced upon the Christian Church by the emperor Constantine. It was adhered to by bishops who were afraid to speak against it. Then when the Protestants broke away from the corrupt Roman Church most of them still carried the pagan doctrine of the trinity, because they had practiced error for so long that they accepted the trinitarian doctrine.

Encyclopedia Britannica 1968

"The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325. Constantine himself presiding, actively guiding the discussion, and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council. 'of one substance with the father.' Over-awed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them against their inclination.

Constantine regarded the decision of Nicaea as divinely inspired. As long as he lived no one dared openly to challenge the creed of Nicaea." The Origins of Pagan and Christian Beliefs Edward Carpenter 1920 1996"And when at the Council of Nicea (325 AD) it [the early church] endeavored to establish an official creed, the strife and bitterness only increased.""-the Nicean creed had nothing to propound except some extremely futile speculations about the relation to each other of the Father and the Son, and the relation of both to the Holy Ghost,"

Man's Religions 1968 John B. Noss

"This creed, adopted under pressure from the emperor, who wanted peace, did not immediately solve the doctrinal difficulties or save the peace. The phrases (not made) and (of the same substance with the Father) were bitterly denounced by many"

The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend
"The Emperor exerted all his influence toward winning unanimous acceptance and nearly succeeded. Only two bishops stood out against it; but two other senior bishops refused to sign the anathemas against Arius and were exiled."

Constantine was really only interested in unifying the empire and gaining more power. He broke truces, started wars, and even had relatives killed to further his power. Constantine was more interested in unity than in getting the correct doctrine of the trinity. In fact before he died Constantine switched sides and took Arius’ position regarding the trinity instead of the position that he forced through the council of Nicea. Without Constantine's presiding, actively guiding, and actively controlling the discussion there would not have been a 'coequal' 'coeternal' 'God the Son' Nicene creed.

But what manner of man was this person who pushed through this doctrine which was to become the cornerstone of Christianity? A History of Christianity Volume 1 1997 Kenneth Scott Latourette"Constantine. . . although only a catechumen, [One who is being instructed in a subject at an elementary level] presided over its [the council of Nicea] opening session, and was active in its deliberations. Whether Constantine appreciated the niceties of the questions at issue is highly doubtful, for he was a layman, a warrior and administrator, not a philosopher or an expert theologian."

The Rise of Christianity 1985 W.H.C. Frend
"Like all great conquerors from Alexander to Napoleon or even Hitler his [Constantine's] aim was unity and unification on a worldwide scale.

" A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker"
He [Constantine] accepted the pagan title of Pontifex Maximus, and his coins still showed the emblems of the Sun-God."

Babylon Mystery Religion 1981 Ralph Woodrow"
. . his [Constantine's] conversion is to be seriously questioned. Even though he had much to do with the establishment of certain doctrines and customs within the church, the facts plainly show that he was not truly converted-not in the Biblical sense of the word.

""Probably the most obvious indication that he was not truly converted may be seen from the fact that after his conversion he committed several murders-including the murder of his own wife and son!""Yet in 326-very shortly after directing the Nicean Council-he had his son put to death."

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting

"It was Constantine who by official edict brought Christianity to believe in the formal division of the Godhead into two – God the Father and God the Son. It remained the task of a later generation to bring Christianity to believe in the Triune God."". . . years after winning this heaven-inspired triumph, history divulges that the alleged follower of Jesus murdered an already vanquished rival, killed his wife by having her boiled alive in her own bath – and murdered an innocent son." [speaking of Constantine]

A History of Christianity 1976 Paul Johnson
". . . appears to have been a sun-worshipper, one of a number of the late pagan cults which had observances in common with Christians. Worship of such gods was not a novel idea. Every Greek or Roman expected that political success followed from religious piety. Christianity was the religion of Constantine’s father. Although Constantine claimed that he was the thirteenth apostle, his was no sudden Damascus conversion. Indeed it is highly doubtful that he ever truly abandoned sun-worship. After his professed acceptance of Christianity, he built a triumphal arch to the sun god and in Constantinople set up a statue of the same sun god bearing his own features. He was finally deified after his death by official edict in the Empire, as were many Roman rulers."". . . His private life became monstrous as he aged . . . His abilities had always lain in management . . . [he was] a master of . . . the smoothly-worded compromise." It would be an understatement to say that Constantine was a crooked politician; yet this is the man who is mainly responsible for the Nicene Creed's doctrine of the coequal, coeternal, one substance three in one God. One day he is setting the doctrine for the Christian church another day he is murdering people; it would seem that to anyone with any common sense that formulating church doctrine should not be done by a non-repentant murderer. How many of you would like to have a non-repentant murderer setting your Christian doctrine? Yet if you believe the Nicene Creed you have done just that.


A Statement of Reasons for Not Believing the Doctrine of the Trinitarians Concerning the Nature of God and the Person of Christ 1833 Andrews Norton
"When we look back through the long ages of the reign of the Trinity . . . we shall perceive that few doctrines have produced more unmixed evil."

The Bible does not give us a doctrine of a trinity, the historical record shows that modern Christian trinitarian beliefs were not formulated until about 300 years after the death of Jesus Christ, but in pagan religions trinitarian beliefs date back to ancient Babylon, thousands of years before Jesus Christ. The coequal, coeternal, one substance, three in one trinity is not a Christian Biblical doctrine; yet there are those who insist that it is the cornerstone of Christianity.
In our day and time the doctrine of the trinity is a cornerstone of idolatry.


I pray  may God open your eyes to the truth.

Welldone sister.