Hell is not the punishment for failing to accept Christ as Saviour. It is the punishment for sins you committed long before you heard of Christ.

chrisd:

What you think?

I think you're avoiding the unpleasant conclusions about the nature of God.

Good does not need to exist in opposition to evil. Good can be defined a a absence of suffering (maybe our Buddhist brethern were right after all). In the world of an all powerfull, all Good God, we would not even need the concepts of Good and Evil in the first place. These would be utterly meaningless to us.

I think we already have the disease nfern "Christianity-in-a-bubble"

Evil is here for good, we have to live by that.

chrisd:

I think we already have the disease nfern "Christianity-in-a-bubble"

I would be very happy to hear about your reading of Christianity. Maybe we could reach a common ground.

God offers to every mind its choice between truth and repose. Take which you please; you can never have both.

repose?

A sect or a party is an elegant incognito devised to save a man from the vexation of thinking. Repose is alien to us I suppose

If that is the case, than your God is pure evil. By no stretch of the imagination can an all good God do such a thing.

@ nferyn, I am asking you again what do you call good works, wickedness or evil? I am not saying God condones wickedness or evil, it only implies that good works are not acceptable except when done according to his will and precepts, when cornelius was doing an equally good deeds, God sent peter to let him know his works are acceptable but he is not applying the right precepts, he heard, believed and was justified................God is doing the same to everyone today and will always, he that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit is saying to the church.

chrisd:

Hell is not the punishment for failing to accept Christ as Saviour. It is the punishment for sins you committed long before you heard of Christ.

Sorry u got it wrong. Should read......"Hell is not the punishment for sins you committed long before you heard of Christ. It is the punishment for failing to accept Christ as Saviour"......

That the basic protestant distortion.

Makes it very convenient too. That's what judgement is all about, all about your sins.

Obviously u don't get it, if hell is the punishment for sins committed before we came to know Christ Jesus as our Saviour, then we all are going to hell. So what's the essence of accepting Jesus as one's Saviour?

PrettyH [/i]debating [i]chrisd ... I'll love this

see i dont kinda understand some thfing,am not perfect,yes i do wrong,am always fallin short of being worthy,am trying my best but is not good enof,cos i aint good enof but he(jesus)still loves me....
so can someone tell me who belongs in heaven cos i believe everyone is as wrong as i am,no one is worthy...

@adesodgi. I didnt know you were one of the fighting temptations!

nferyn:

PrettyH [/i]debating [i]chrisd ... I'll love this

ADVANCED BIBLE STUDY

Jesus said in Matthew 8:11...

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The Bible teaches that both those who do good and those who do evil shall be resurrected, after which we are judged and sentenced. The Bible says,

"It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

God has set forth His laws and demands obedience to them. Any disobedience to His law is known as sin, which a God of integrity and justice must punish.

So the JEWS, the truely observant jews are not God’s children All that praying 3 times a day, doing good deeds, setting up jewish hospitals all over the world, making the best bagels and lox for the goyim, and actually loving their God.. are NOT God’s children? Only christians are going to heaven. So good deeds dont count huh? Ive met jewish, muslim, sihk, atheist, and hindu physicians.. the most nicest and trustworthy people I've ever worked with… you mean to tell me they’re going to hell? I could understand an atheist going to hell… but not the God fearing ones? So a pedophile seriel rapist who is minutes away from execution who makes a spur of the moment decision to truely believe in Christ and that he died for his sins goes to heaven This is why I see more and more christians in the streets, tv and in my everyday business just dress how they want to dress, cuss, talk about their sexual encounters to everyone, sleep around, racists, hateful, spiteful… its all good ’cause you’re bathed by the blood of Christ. “sin now and repent later.”

First off I dont want you to think that I'm trying to argue with you. It's just that whenever I see someones view point on Christianity, and if it seems wrong, I like to try and help the person to understand it, ( i know that certain people and situations have kinda warped Christianity's rep..so i understand there is some confusion these days)
Anyway, about your statement...This is the beauty of Salvation through Christ: If a serial rapist was getting ready to die, and the Holy Spirit was convicting him one last time, yes, if the man finally said yes to the Lord, he would be forgiven and would receive salvation instantly and would die and go to heaven.

ADVANCED BIBLE STUDY: LEVEL2

All those people that set up hostpitals feed the poor etc, are doing great things for humankind. Yet, it doesn't count if it isn't being done for the Lord. Our works are as filthy rags. Man tries and tries to find his own way to God, but Jesus clearly stated in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me." Good works are great, we are to do good works in this life, but that isn't the way to eternal life. I would much rather accept the simple message of salvation than struggle to live a life of good works, worrying if im going to end up having enough good works that outway the bad.

Also, those Christians that dress dirty, and talk even more dirty, etc, aren't really Christians. Let me explain: The word Christian means Christ-like. Christians themselves didn't decide to give themselves that name. Actually, unbelievers gave followers of God that name back in the New Testament because they tried so hard to be like Christ. Therefore, someone may be saved, but they may not be a Christian, living like Christ and following His commands. THere are also those who profess to be "Christians" these days that certainly are not. They don't understand what it means to be a Christian. It's more than wearing a cross and doing a good deed after going to church on Sunday. It's more than a "spiritual fad" I've heard people say, "I used to be a Christian, but i realized it wasnt for me" Once you are saved, you are saved. So either they meant that they used to be Christ-like, or they are saying that they got saved and decided not to be anymore--impossible. The Bible speaks of those that professed to be in the faith but then left. That shows they never were in the faith to begin with.

chrisd:

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me."

But by me I like that, not by believing in death to clear sins. .

Anywayz Thak God it is "according" to "John" in the bible not "according" to "God" or even "Jesus". or According to who is it in this case?

But really this verse does make sense, in a way, that is from my logical reasoning which means, you have to "believe in him", which means "believe in his words", which does not necessarily mean the "words" of those that "claim" to "speak" on his "behalf". One beauty of the bible, that always amazes me is the "according to" been used. But who knows even whether he really said those words, since it is "according to"? I wonder

And by the way so, who would go to hell? Non Christians?? hahahha but "Christianity" is an english which is used to defines those that follow the supposed "Teaching of Christ". Which is really questionable. Sometimes I am even confused to what happened to the teachings of "the old testament".

But well this is just my opinion. Treat it with rationality.

The Lesson of the Rich Young Ruler

How good are you? Christianity teaches as other religions do to improve ones self to be accepted by God.
In Mk.10:17-22 We find a rich man running to Jesus and kneels asking him “Good teacher (Rabbi) what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? To call Jesus good meant a moral perfection in Judaism, not just being a caring kindhearted person.

Jesus sees he is sincere in his pursuit and loved him, that he was observant of the law and was a righteous man. He then said to him, If you want to be perfect, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.
Perfect here means if you want to be complete, mature. SO in addition to doing good and living a just and righteous life one needs to accept god to be truly perfect, to be at best. So he gave him a harder task than others. That's how one can grow. It does not mean good works do not matter. Jesus was always doing good works and that's a fact.

christians are the followers of Christ............... what about those who have died before christ came in to the world......wt about those who did not feel the message of Jesus Christ before they died..............

non christians will make heaven........ infact........... herbalist will make heaven if they are righteous

1. Which non-Christians go to Heaven, if any? Situations to consider:
a. Universalism: God loves everybody and saves everybody, whether they cooperate with Him or not.
Objection 1: Then why evangelize?
Objection 2: If God gave people the freedom to reject Him, why would he take it away again? If He planned to take it away, it isn’t really freedom.
b. People who cannot hear or respond to the Gospel.

2. Those who knew God but died in Old Testament times.
They are saved by Christ, same as us. Noah, Abraham, etc., are Christ’s firstfruits. The whole Epistle to the Hebrews is about this.

3. Those who die as infants or are severely mentally deficient.
The Bible says little or nothing, but most Protestants believe that such people are not fully accountable for sin, and hence are not separated from God in the first place.
Catholics believe they are not punished for sin and go to heaven.

4. Those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it. Be careful what you say about this case.

"God wouldn’t punish them for rejecting Christ" – no, He never punishes you for rejecting Christ. He punishes you for your own sins, not the sins you have not had the opportunity to commit, and that’s quite enough!

"God will save everybody who has no opportunity to choose whether to accept Christ" – well, then, let’s arrange for Christianity to die out, so then nobody will hear the Gospel and everybody will be saved!
See also the next 2 cases.

5. Those who live a life of good works while practicing some other religion (or none).
Remember that good works alone do not save you, but are necessary for salvation. Enough said. But see the next case:

6. Those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none).
This is the interesting case. Two clear Biblical teachings:
a. Salvation is made possible by the death of Christ on the cross. Apart from Christ and what he did, there is no salvation. (Acts 4:12, John 14:6; Lk 10:22)
b. Non-Christians can, at least in principle, perceive God’s righteousness and their need for His mercy. (Romans 1:18-20, 2:14-16; Acts 17:28)
Whatever we conclude will need to be faithful to both of these teachings.

My opinion is the following (and you are welcome to disagree):

a. It is possible for a non-Christian to realize his need for God’s mercy and seek it.
(Note: Although I think this is possible, I do not think it happens routinely. Missionaries report finding occasional cases of it.)

b. In my opinion, God will not turn away people who seek His mercy, even if their understanding of Him is vague and they lack historical knowledge of Christ. (Some of God’s people in the Old Testament knew little about Him and His works; one example appears to be Melchisedek.)

c. We should never rely on Christ to save people who have not heard the Gospel. We have our marching orders.

d. The Bible gives no statistics on how many people go to Hell. It does, however, clearly teach that it is possible to do so, and that evangelism is urgently needed.

I run as close to universalism as I can – which is not very close, because I’m constrained by the Bible.

@ chrisd
Do you consider the Bible as codified as an actual historic account of the life of Jesus?

Not really.

chrisd:

Not really.

How then do you know what the real teachings of Jesus were?

nferyn:

How then do you know what the real teachings of Jesus were?

i doubt you will get an answer to this. . .i ask it all the time.

What might come as a shock to many modern-day Christians, the early Church also placed more emphasis on the message of scripture over actual words on pages. The early Church was not so much concerned with the words, but rather with what the text tells us about Jesus and the Christian faith.

chrisd:

What might come as a shock to many modern-day Christians, the early Church also placed more emphasis on the message of scripture over actual words on pages. The early Church was not so much concerned with the words, but rather with what the text tells us about Jesus and the Christian faith.

But you know how distorted that original message was by the institutionalised Catholic Church? And the Protestants use a slightly modified version of the same Bible, while sticking even closer to orthodoxy. If you want to know what the orginal churches were like, you'd better head to Ethiopia; there's hardly anything left of the gnostic tradition (btw, many early gnostic churches even believed that there was an actual physical historical Jesus in the first place)

The Bible has been subjected to attacks to disprove its accuracy.
(1) Questioning the existence of the Hittite kingdom.
(2) Questioning existence of Solomon and David.
Archaeologists confirmed Bible accuracy in these areas. Non-Christians then started to climb up the ladder and question existence of Moses and Abraham too. While they argue that Christians presuppose the inerrancy of the Bible, are they not doing the same in their presupposition that everything in the Bible is in err unless proven?

For me, protestantinism chucked out things they did not like. Those part were always considered part of the bible.

the bible has been modified to fit the agenda's of the various churches.

knowing this, one must take it with grains of salt - its been a couple thousand years since anyone could possibly claim the bible is error free with a straight face.

- actually, it could be more than a couple thousand. . .

About 1500 years. Anyway, the Bible is not supposed to be error free, but it is supposed to be accurate.