@Havila: I do not bind if you call me Idiotic as long as you call me Pa, along with it! Since you are not an Ijebu man and evidently, you hate us, my job then, is to discourage the Ijebu christians to bolt away from 'your religion'. From your Bible, we see that there is a great expression of discrimination. Not because of what a person does that is evil But simple because that they are born by a maternal or paternal classification. It reminds of the Osu caste system that the Igbo people practiced. At least you are able to justify your unnecessary discrimination and racist bigotry directly from your Bible. We do not have the same in Qur'an or Sunnah! Unfortunately, there are discrimination and racist bigotry within the Muslim communities.

Since hagar, a black african woman from the house of Pharaoh, in Egypt gave birth to Ishmael for the prophet Abraham, I will like you to answer some questions below: Was Abraham a prophet before he traveled to Egypt?
Was this journey before he had contact with hagar? Was Abraham a friend of God at that time? Did God allow His friend to perform adultery? Bearing in mind that Adam and Eve were ligally married in the Eye of God, do you then think that God will allow His bosom body, Abraham to commit a major sin like adultery an illegal sexual act or relationship? If this is not the case, then I will tell you that you do not know what you are writing and need to get off from your emotional thinking platform and come to reality.

Again, are you saying that a friend of God has a child who is his first child, ever and this is an illegitimate birth? Are you saying that after the birth of the second child, who can never be a first child or son, thirteen years later, Issiac mother ask that the older brother to be sent away, just because the older brother made fun of the younger brother? Is that normal or is that the work of a demented emotionally insure child in the body of an adult? You are a Doctor, you should be able to reason. I am throwing it out there for you. How old was Issac before his mother ask the big brother to be expelled with his mother from their mutual home, which they must in anybody's eye have full right to reside in. Regardless, since Ishmael is 13 years older and Issiac was born before this incident, how is possible that an old man, which was what Abraham was could have carried this boy on his shoulder for that long and treacherous journey in the desert from jarusalem to makka? Please tell us, if you see the possiblility or plausibility of it.

Did Abraham and Ishmael ever met after all of the above? Also, this Ishmael and Issiac ever met or you do not have any answer to any of these? How did the Jews and the extended outpost of it known as christians know about Ismail? Did Ibrahiim tell the youger brother Isiaq that his older son and Isiaqa's older brother is condemned? You see the offspring of any prophet from youth ever condemned, without doing any evil? Is there a presidence?

Now coming to our contemporary history; There was slavery in Africa. Therefore Black people in Africa and those transported around the world, eg American Blacks and the Caribbeans must be cursed, if one were to use your logic, right? I am sure you will see your follies by now. But I will not blame you. You do not know any better. Afterall, in America today, Bible is still being used to justify discriminations, even by the Neonazi, the daughters of the revolution, the KKK and the Arian clubs. You should be ashamed of yourself by now.

Havila, Belloti quoted verses from your Bible, you the great ledear and emancipator of Islamic Nairaland and beyond 'jammat', scurried away without answering or attempting to answer it. I do not want your personal opinion or the 'newcomer', the psudoapostle, who you call Paul. I want it directly from Jesus, who was not a christian or his true companions. Take your pick. I do not want to see Roman, Calathians, Corithians, and wishy washy storytelling suggestive command. Answer me, man!

You know anything about Aisha and her family before she got married to the Prophet (AS)? Was she born before or after the first revelation "Iqra", to Muhammad (AS)? How old was she, before the first revelation? Did you know that she was engaged before Islam, promised to a future husband? Also did you know that the marriage was called off because of the fact that her father converted to Islam? Did you know that the convertion was one of the earliest in Islam, since Muhammad and Abu bakr were good friends before Islam? Did you know that this convertion was the first of all adult male in the very first month of Islam? Did you know that Muhammad spent 13 years in makka before migration to Madina? Did you know that the consumation of the marriage between muhammad and Aisha was in the second year of arrival to madina? Is it then not very clear to you that a child who was engaged before, must have least be born before the engagement or the broken off of the engagement? Is then not true that Aisha at the youngest will be 15 and if you add her age before her father converted to this above, which is 4 or 5, then she has to ne 19 or 20? Where are you coming from and is this the same you who had tutored your Ph. D canditate brother in his youth, the ever strange math?

Go to Scottland yard or any of the Police stations and get a copy of Pedophilia known profile. There is no single description that will fit Muhammad (AS). He was not a recluse, not shy,married before to a powerful woman and remained single for a short while before he remarried. No one reported that he was not capable of controlling his sexual energy. This is a man who was a virgin before he married his first wife. You can even say that about yourself. Muhammad (AS) stated in an authentic adith that from Adam and up to him in his human bloodline, there is no illegal sex act. This proof that Ibrahiim and hagar were married and nothing illegal about their relationship! Who should I believe, you an ordinary man who took another for god, or the one who gave all glory to The Creator? Havila, Oro e Sun mi!

@Olabowale,
Maybe you should allow younger 'jammat' like Belloti and co to continue discussing here because it is obvious you are loosing touch with reality with all these bizarre and illogical posts. I don't remember calling you 'idiotic',,,,,,probably that's from your self-assessment and it's not my business then, abi? Really you waste a lot of space in making no sense at all, just take a look at the length of your post and unsurprisingly there is no valuable content in it. Now, that's quite confusing. You do not need to burst a vein, because you do not have the skill or capacity to twist what is written by me: no where did I or anybody justified discrimination from the bible; but it is only in your quran where you are taught to "tax" unbelievers into "submission/conversion", is that not discrimination?. My explaining the affliction/bongage of Ishmael is simply explaining the prophecy spoken about Ishmael in Genesis 16 vs 10-13 and seeing the escathological relevance of that prophesy to the descendants of Ishmael in today's world. Listen:

"And the angel of the Lord said unto her (i.e Hagar), I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with a child, and shall bear a son, and shall call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; and his hand will be against everyman and everyman's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

We know that Ishmael is the progenitor or forefather of the Arabs and thus of Muhammed and his sick ideology called Islam. Simply take a honest look at the prophesy on Ishmael above (written thousands of years ago) and relate that to today's world; vis-a-vis Islam and the rest of the world; and you will see that Islam is a fulfillment of the affliction of Ishmael. It is a known fact that Islam is the major danger to peace and freedom in the world today; it also poses a great threat to the salvation of millions of those in it. What is it about Ishmael? Well, since ten (10) years has elapsed since God promised an heir to Abraham and Sarah, and they were still with no child, they decided to take matters into their own hands. This negative, doubting action produces Ishmael as a "work of the flesh" in contrast to Isaac who is a promised product of the "Spirit of God." You have a problem with that? simply take it up with God; who can question Him? He does things according to his infinite power and wisdom and to purpose. And by the way, Hagar was not a black African woman; an Egyptian woman in those days does not translate to Africa. Africa was not in existence then, in fact the entire region of Egypt and middle east where one entity as of then. So, in your attempt to make this an emotional issue, you've shown your obvious ignorance of the scriptures. What do you read in the quran sef? She was a slave with no right as of then, but lives in the benevolence of the owner. However, we know that slave or freeman, black or white, once your are in Jesus Christ, you are a Child of God and a joint-heir of the Kingdom of God in the body of Christ. (Ephesians 2 vs11-13; Galatians 3 vs 28) So do you see how senseless you sound in trying to justify slavery and discrimination with the Bible or Christianity? Get wisdom, my friend, you are in serious need of it!!

Let me help you in getting the needed wisdom by providing an assignment for you and Belloti: it is true that when Jesus was born, three (3) wise men went to Him with three different gifts: Gold, Myrrh and Frankincense. In the ancient east history and practise, go and find out what Frankincense is used for. That is another answer to Belloti's question on Christianity and the Divinity of Jesus Christ. I know individually seeking wisdom is not an islamic virtue, so you can go and ask at the masjid too.
Did I hear you say muhammed was not a recluse; but he received the first revelations of the quran while 'reclusing' inside a cave. Give you 'profiles' to an uninformed like yourself. Muhammed was a sex pervert, a recluse, a nymphomaniac, a paedophile, a rascist, woman abuser who told his followers to beat their wives gently; a power hungry cretin who 'formulated' Islam as a power-grabbing instrument. Indeed, a false prophet who only command followership out of intimidation and lies which is still the tool-in-trade of todays' Islam. Are you fuming from the nose yet? wait for more,,,,,,,,,,,

@Havila

I beg to differ with you. You're using the same line of reasoning whites used to biblically justify their racism/slavery towards blacks to justify Islamophobia. It doesn't go down well with me because Ishmael is a person and Muslims are a group. Arabs make up just about 20% of Muslims worldwide. Your reasoning concerning Ishmael as the father of Arabs and muslims in general does now work seeing how the majority of muslims are not Arabs.

Again, what happened to this passage from the bible?

"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

Even when the sins of the father (Ishmael) is visited upon his childre, it is for four generations at maximum. Ishmael's curse does not explain anything about Islam today.

I'm not even muslim, just compelled to clear up things. The same argument you're using was used by whites (using Ham son of Noah) to justify slavery. I don't like it when people deceptively use the bible for things like that.

@ Donzman

Your post drips with lack of knowledge

When you made the bible quotations and attempt to correlate them to the words spoken about Ishmeal, you forgot a salient question: Was Ishmeal "cursed" because he "sinned"?

Gen 16:10[b]And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. [/b] 11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
13And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

It is highly unlikely that a "curse" would include the words " i will multiply thy seed exceedingly . . ." or that Hagar would have been eager to remember an episode where God "cursed" her son.

The passages you quoted were specific instances here where God pronounced a punishment on His people for disobeying Him. The same God who pronounced such judgment was more that likely forgiving them the instance they repented. The reason the punishment never went beyond at best the 4th generation was because God would not want generations of innocent children suffering needlessly for the sins of a man they never knew. That was why in Ezekiel, he reversed it and said;

Ez 18: 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The issue of Ishmeal is similar to that of Esau, even before Esau was born (a stage at which he had commited no sin as yet), God had already foretold his life and those of his descendants well into the future. Such CAN NEVER BE ALTERED!
The words spoken to Ishmeal were very similar to the ones God spoke to Abraham when he left Ur of the chaldeans, if such a covenant is still in force today, why do you think that of Ishmeal's would not go beyond the 4th generation?

mrpataki,

i can see that u r really at the crossroad. i asked for the meaning of a verse from your bible (what your jesus god said) and u started giving me irrelevant response.

i saw you are really dillusioned so i limited the verses to just only one. i need good explanation on it. this is the verse below.

Luke 19v27: for those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and SLAY THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM THERE BEFORE ME .

and you posted this as your response.

[b]@ babs787
I will answer your question thus:
Jesus is coming back for his church that is without sin, meanwhile there is what we call the Kingdom of God which is what Jesus is coming for, in absentia at the moment, he discovers among his own, some who seems to be influenced by the things of this world, rather than by the things of God. Like the kingdom in the story,(where you brought out) our world is in a state of civil war, some people are loyal to God, our King in heaven, while others refuse to acknowledge his Lordship. One day the Lord Jesus will return to put an end to the civil war by destroying the enemies and recreating the earth. On which side will you be?

In essence the scripture you have just qouted for explanation by me is actually Jesus making us to know what the endtime(his coming back) is actually going to look like.

As much He is the Prince of peace, He is also a God of judgement, and when he comes back to earth, he is coming for Judgement, and to take his own kingdom home.

If you still want more clarifications i will kindly oblidge you.[/b]

IS THERE ANY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MY QUESTION AND YOUR RESPONSE IN WHICH YOU CLAIMED TO HAVE ANSWERED?

@ope emi,

u claimed jesus was speaking in parable. is the above verse a parable and i will be happy if you can assist your confused and ignorant fellow (mrpataki) and bail him out. he's lost of words and beating about the bush.

@ Babs787

Ignorance indeed is a disease or should i say dyscrasias?

You just took Luke 19:27 totally out of context for clearly mischievous purposes. Now be a good kid and lets go over that verse again, but as it is impossible to get the full gist of a story simply by leaping away with one sentence in a 2000 page book, so is it impossible for you to take verse 27 without considering other accompanying verses!

Luke 19: 11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

Look closely at verse 11, it clearly indicates here that Jesus was telling a PARABLE, i.e. an illustrative story! The story as told by Jesus is about a CERTAIN NOBLEMAN going on a journey and giving his SERVANTS some money to trade with in his absence. Note that in this STORY, the nobleman is almost certainly a ruler as verse 11 indicates he went to get himself another kingdom!

Verse 14 in the continuation of this STORY indicates that the SUBJECTS of this CERTAIN NOBLEMAN resented his rulership and were trying to do what we would call now a palace coup to over throw him. Note that they sent a message after him to tell him of their intentions.

From verse 15, our STORY continues with the arrival of the NOBLEMAN who is set to take account of the actions of his servants while he was away on his journey. Verses 15-26 indicates the rewards and punishments each servant of the NOBLEMAN recieves on account of his stewardship.
Verse 27 in continuation of our STORY shows the NOBLEMAN remembering the treachery of his SUBJECTS who planned to unseat him in a palace coup while he was away. Much like Abacha and Babangida did in their heydays, our NOBLEMAN calls for his servants to round up his attempted coup plotters to be brought to justice, in those days death was the punishment.

Verse 28 clearly indicates the end of our STORY! In no way was verse 27 refering to Jesus physically requesting to kill anyone! Please in order not to sound mischievous next time, pls read surrounding verses to get a good grip of what the verse you are attempting to interprete is saying not just following your mullahs blindly in cherry picking verses to attempt to cast Jesus in the same light as that psycopathic pedophile and mass murderer, Mohammed!

DAVIDYLAN,

IT IS VERY MUCH true that ignorance is a disease and your above quote showed your level of ignorance.

now lets go back to your quoted verses

26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

now TO 26, WAS HE SPEAKING IN PARABLES TOO AND
27, WAS THAT A PARABLE
28, WAS THAT A PARABLE TOO?

in a nutshell, bringing people and slay them before me is a parable, can you tell me the meaning of the parable and what qualifies it to be parable

and also the last verse u quoted when he went to jerusalem is also a parable.

one more question, what qualifies the 27 to be parable and why 26 and 28 is also not a parable?

u are also confused, beating about the bush.

u may include the below and explain

Num 31v1-: and the Lord said unto Moses, ‘AVENGE the children of the Midanites……………as the Lord commanded Moses and they SLAY ALL THE MALES. And they took all women as captives and their little ones, and they took the spoil of all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods. And they burnt all the cities wherein they dwelt and all their goodly castles with fire. Moses said,’HAVE U SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES AND KILL EVERY WOMAN THAT HAS KNOWN MAN BY LYING WITH HIM BUT ALL THE YOUNG GIRLS WHO HAVE NOT KNOWN A MAN BY LYING WITH HIM KEEP ALIVE FOR YOURSELVES.


AS CONFUSED AS MRPATAKI

@ BABS787,

You are dangerously unintelligent and totally bereft of understanding even a jack!

What really is your point? I have explained that verse to you time and time again, but you seem not to comprehend what it means to reply your stupidity, or perhaps you dont even read replies at all.

Tell us what is your conclusion, maybe from there, you can get an understanding to your plight!

@Davidylan,
God bless you richly for your understanding of the depth of scriptures; and He will increase that understanding of yours.

@Donzman,
Thanks for your post; but as Davidylan has shown above, difference exists between 'afflictions' resulting from foretold words, and a 'Curse'.
I did not say Ishmael was cursed; but a view of the prophesy concerning his life will reveal my position that Islam is an extension of the 'affliction' (not curse) of Ishmael. The words of God cannot change.
Again, neither did I say Ishmael is the father of muslims in general (take a look again) I said Ishmael was the progenitor of Arabs and thus of Muhammed and his ideology of Islam. Even muslims know and admit it. Listen: Not all Christians are Jews, but all true Christians are joint heirs of Abraham's covenant and blessings through Christ/Christianity. In the same way 'not all muslims are Arabs, but all muslims are joint heirs of Ishmael's "covenant" through muhammed/Islam. Sorry if this sounds offensive but it is the spiritual fact of life. Even, idol worshippers share covenant with their deity through the priest or babalawo. Nature and spiritual things abhor vacuum; thus even atheist and secular humanist share covenant with the "ruler of the world system" (guess who) through philosophy and other world systems, etc. Do you now understand why truth must be told even if it is offensive?
I now know that you can see that this is different from the issue of Ham and Noah; the relationship here cannot be used to justify such things as racism because there is no word of God here, those who use it were simply ignorant fool doing the works of wickedness. Before you jump to post kindly make sure you have really read and understood a post.
This is not about Islamophobia; it is simply boldy declaring the escathological relevance of the prophesy of Ishmael to today's occurences.

@babs707,
as for you, babs, you are in a world of your own. Can you read at all? The fact that somebody is literate does not translate to being able to read and understand, hope you know.

@Havila and Davidylan

Are you both idiots or just plain religious bigots?, I'll take it that you're idiotic religious bigots. There is no place in the bible where anyone tries to differentiate between ordinary curses and curses as a result of sin. Common sense will tell me that an ordinary curse will be more easily forgiven than a curse due to sin. You're both idiots, I wonder why Olabowole even tries to argue with you. He should just slap the both of you and keep it moving.

12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Does it say anything about Ishmael's descendants?, Again an idiotic religious bigot.

Such CAN NEVER BE ALTERED!

Quit pulling shit out of your nasty ass because it stinks. Where does it differentiate between a natural curse and a curse due to sin and where does it say that such can never altered. Again, an idiotic bigot.

What kind of God will condemn someone before he/she is born?  By the way, Esau wasn't condemned, he just didn't have the right to his birthright.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Correct, why then do you infer that Muslims (most of whom aren't even descendants of Ishmael) will suffer for the sins of Ishmael?

It is one thing being a religious bigot, being an idiotic one?, Priceless!

Dumbman,,,,,,sorry Donzman,
dont burtst a vein. You are having serious fits now due to your lack of knowlege as accurately opined before. You can call us all sorts of names you like, it does not reduce or remove the fact.

Donzman:

What kind of God will condemn someone before he/she is born? By the way, Esau wasn't condemned, he just didn't have the right to his birthright.

AS soon as i saw this line, i stopped reading your insultive post and concluded you indeed are suffering from a chronic lack of knowledge. Not everyone who calls himself a christian can rightly divide the word of truth.

Thanks

Yours truly,
An idiotic religious bigot!

davidylan:

AS soon as i saw this line, i stopped reading your insultive post and concluded you indeed are suffering from a chronic lack of knowledge. Not everyone who calls himself a christian can rightly divide the word of truth.

Thanks

Yours truly,
An idiotic religious bigot!

Thanks, that's what I do, I make people stop spewing bullsh!t.

Havila:

Dumbman,,,,,,sorry Donzman,
don't burtst a vein. You are having serious fits now due to your lack of knowlege as accurately opined before. You can call us all sorts of names you like, it does not reduce or remove the fact.

There are no facts from you and Davidylan, only inferences based on nothing.

Yours truly,
Donzman the Master Debater and Cunning Linguist.

@Havila: On the 16th of December, 2006, your response to me started with you saluting me? Abi? Even now, in your most recent response to me, it was the same salutation. Welcome. The training is very grounded, indeed. The younger 'jammat' to cul a phrase from you may tend to respect you. For me, I should not, since you have told me that i am older than you. I appreciate you to a point. That's all. Unfortunately, you can not see logic in my responses. That is good, because you remind me of the Kuraishi people during the Battle at the well of Badr. The moment God the Almighty confounded them upon the Prophet (AS) throwing a handful of dirt in their direction. They bagan to see double. Indeed, more than that. God made it easy on the muslims and laid bare the enemies. In your case you are still here, alive and this is why we are talking to you. I mentioned to you that I have one of your Ife boys with me. His name is Nurudeen Lawal. He is a cardiologist and he is a native of the same town, Ife and his father was a lawyer. He has been a Doctor for over 15 years now. He is 39. The reason that I am telling you this, is that he read the Qur'an English translation. From this casual contact, he discovered much, specifically where there is relativity to his medical study. I advice that you do the same. You need true knowledge. When a muslim discussed the stages of the featus, you began to laugh and ridicule the entry. True knowledge will give you the ability to reason and reconcile the heart/mind and soul with the truth and try to fight falsehood. For you it will be a challenge, but with God all things are posssible. Do not hang your believe and hope so blindly on the 'supposed death, by hanging/crucifixion' that never happened. All that is crucified is accursed. There is no prophet that is accursed. Only Satan and those who follow him are accursed and there is no mercy from God the Almighty on them.

Donzman:

Thanks, that's what I do, I make people stop spewing bullsh!t.

There are no facts from you and Davidylan, only inferences based on nothing.

Yours truly,
Donzman the Master Debater and Cunning Linguist.

Am i the only one wondering which Dumbman you are refering to here?

Of course ours is inferences based on nothing, i'm just wondering what inferences your earlier rants were based on. The way to seek notoriety and popularity is not by jumping on every thread, contributing nothing but calling others stupid fools and trying to run them down.
Those who award themselves the titles of "master debater" should be able to prove it not in the number of insults but in the quality of posts.

@Davidylan

Each to its own. I can't glorify the nonsencial rantings of you and Havila by responding without insults. Donzman operates in a manner coherent with his feelings. If I feel your post is rubbish, I can't help but tell you they're rubbish.

Until you prove that there is a biblical difference between Ishamel's curse and any other curse, this post still stands true:

Donzman:

@Havila

I beg to differ with you. You're using the same line of reasoning whites used to biblically justify their racism/slavery towards blacks to justify Islamophobia. It doesn't go down well with me because Ishmael is a person and Muslims are a group. Arabs make up just about 20% of Muslims worldwide. Your reasoning concerning Ishmael as the father of Arabs and muslims in general does now work seeing how the majority of muslims are not Arabs.

Again, what happened to this passage from the bible?
Even when the sins of the father (Ishmael) is visited upon his childre, it is for four generations at maximum. Ishmael's curse does not explain anything about Islam today.

I'm not even muslim, just compelled to clear up things. The same argument you're using was used by whites (using Ham son of Noah) to justify slavery. I don't like it when people deceptively use the bible for things like that.

@ Dumbman,

just like you said sir, each to his own. i stopped responding to arrogant intellectual dimwitts a long time ago!

Dumbman, Donzman

Reminds me of a primary school rhyme

At all, lets stop the show of arrogance and insultive provocations. Its getting too hot in here.

exactly. Donzman, you can put ya points across without throwing insults and dissing peeps.

exactly. Donzman, you can put ya points across without throwing insults and dissing peeps.

exactly. Donzman, you can put ya points across without throwing insults and dissing peeps.

exactly gbade.x, you can do as the board says "Reply ( Click Once, Then Wait)". Yes, amazingly it does work if you click once and wait. 

Actually i'm using mah phone to browse, so the speed of the connectivity depends on the network.

Besides that, i don't see how ya post goes with the current discussion.

God is good, All the time!

MRpataki,

anybody that sees your post will think thau uv really answered my question but alas u failed woefully.

this is the question again

Luke 19v27: for those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and SLAY THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM THERE BEFORE ME .

and you posted this as your response.

[b]@ babs787
I will answer your question thus:
Jesus is coming back for his church that is without sin, meanwhile there is what we call the Kingdom of God which is what Jesus is coming for, in absentia at the moment, he discovers among his own, some who seems to be influenced by the things of this world, rather than by the things of God. Like the kingdom in the story,(where you brought out) our world is in a state of civil war, some people are loyal to God, our King in heaven, while others refuse to acknowledge his Lordship. One day the Lord Jesus will return to put an end to the civil war by destroying the enemies and recreating the earth. On which side will you be?

In essence the scripture you have just qouted for explanation by me is actually Jesus making us to know what the endtime(his coming back) is actually going to look like.

As much He is the Prince of peace, He is also a God of judgement, and when he comes back to earth, he is coming for Judgement, and to take his own kingdom home.[/b]
If you still want more clarifications i will kindly oblidge you.

IS THERE ANY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MY QUESTION AND YOUR RESPONSE IN WHICH YOU CLAIMED TO HAVE ANSWERED?

am not saying he is not coming back, i asked for the MEANING OF THE VERSE. abi make i put am for another language for your understanding?
is this the explanation to the verse i quoted.

havila,

i may be an illiterate for the fact that i brought out truth for you to see in which you and your cohorts failed to answer.

i have no time to discuss the issue of Ishmael with you. if you want, we create a thread for that and i will bring you out of your ignorance, but for now, the topic remains and also my above verse remains too.

babs787:

this is the question again

Luke 19v27: for those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and SLAY THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM THERE BEFORE ME .

This was what Jesus Christ said to end his parable of "The Ten Minas".

If you begin the reading from [url=http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=luke+19%3A+10-35&version1=31]luke 19: 11[/url] you will find out that the parable began with a man that had lots of servants and was appointed to be king somewhere(Heaven). Before going he gave his servants money(Gift of God) to invest(to bring people to him) on. On his way;

Verse 14:  "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

These are his enemies who didn't want him to become king.

Verse 15:  "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

Putting the devil to shame, he was victorious and became King.

Verse 27:  "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Refering to verse 14, those who didn't want him to reign over them he sent for to be slain.(Making this verse part of the parable)

The logical Meaningof the parable is that Jesus Christ left on each and everyone of us that has accepted him as our personal lord and saviour a mission to win souls for him(that describing the the servants who has sowed his minas and reaped more from it), and as for those who reaped alot will be rewarded according to his work, and to those who didn't reap anything will be taken from him/her the Gift the lord gave them. When he left(after he died on the cross), he went to hell to set his people free and became victorious and went to heaven to become King, where he is sitted at the right hand of the Father Almighty(God), and as for he's enemies who didn't want him to reign over them(evil forces) will be slain.

I hope this as given you an insight in what the verse is trying to pass accross to you.

what does parable really mean? Are we talking about a real killing here or someone misquoted Jesus? I dont think Jesus can give that order

belloti:

what does parable really mean? Are we talking about a real killing here or someone misquoted Jesus? I don't think Jesus can give that order

Dont compound your ignorance. No one misquoted anyone, go back and re-read previous responses not waiting to see loopholes that are not there. This was the case of a parable! An illustrative story!!!! Maybe some of you need to go back and have your ability to reason objectively examined! It seems critical thinking is not a part of Islam!

So harsh and arrogant. you cant even explain calmly how do u intend to convince anyone? what kind of reasoning are you displaying here?

belloti:

So harsh and arrogant. you can't even explain calmly how do u intend to convince anyone? what kind of reasoning are you displaying here?

No sir! Rather a man wondering why with the tons of explanations here, the likes of you and babs787 keep coming back with the usual "we are waiting" rhetoric.
There are more than 10 explanations on babs787 mischievous question alone but just like your mentor the pedophile, you prefer to see in the dark.

When you attempt to say that if i explained "calmly" (i wonder why muslims cannot demonstrate or protest calmly too!), is it on the premise that you would even make an attempt to be convinced? Have u not already made upp your mind to remain in the bowels of deciet?

Quote from Olabowale:
[@Havila: On the 16th of December, 2006, your response to me started with you saluting me? Abi? Even now, in your most recent response to me, it was the same salutation. Welcome. The training is very grounded, indeed. The younger 'jammat' to cul a phrase from you may tend to respect you. For me, I should not, since you have told me that i am older than you. I appreciate you to a point. That's all. Unfortunately, you can not see logic in my responses. That is good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,]


@'Prof' Haji Olabowale,
You are very welcome anytime and anyday. As per the younger 'jammat', well don't worry about them; let each person show his personality and maturity. I am not bothered about who respects me or not. I am a man of firm principles and my standing "earns" me respect, I dont 'ask or beg' for it.
Anyway, your analogy of the kuaresh people or whatever is not germaine because you know I don't believe in your concocted book of fallacy variously called Quran/Koran/Al-quran Kariim,etc or the lies contained therein. Which one are you talking about sef, the one compiled by Abu Bakr or the one with the so-called 'satanic verses' ripped out? whatever and whichever, it's all BS.
The topic questions have been scripturally answered variously but understanding of the poster is limited for now; but you are all in our prayers that "your eyes of understanding might be opened, so you can know the riches of your inheritance in glory"; in simple english, that means that your mind be divinely enlightened to receive the true Salvation of God which is by grace and also know how assured or certain is that salvation that comes through acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
By the way, Olabsy, stop displaying such limited capacity that the best research you do is to sit in front of Television and listen to what National Geographic tells you about Jesus/Christianity. I dont need TV to know about Islam by listening to other peoples opinion, I read the Quran,  I'll read about muhammed and his deceptive doctrine and boldy declare it with evidences and in love. That's my mandate.
At least, your neophyte Belloti called himself a "scholar" somewhere; but I am yet to see the 'scholarly' product other than the same'ol masjid gossips about what Christianity is really is or not.

Havila, this is a great opportunity given to you and the other boys and girls to try and explain in much clearer terms why you believe christianity is ok. we are not asking for anything else. So far you are only attacking us instead of answering us. What do u think we should do now? we dont seem to have options