Workch:
the blind man analogy is a strawman that you intentionally conjured because of your lack of ability to provide evidence. We both know this.

You have to first prove to me that both cases are the same. A blind man has been proven to be blind, you need to prove to me that I am also blind because I think you re the blind person here

Have you experienced the supernatural?
Can you speak to God and get a response?
Has the Holy Spirit ever explained something to you?

If no, you're blind with regards to the spiritual.
Or, you are using your own hands to cover your eyes and expecting not to see
Orr... You are seeing but refusing to call a spade a spade

FxMasterz:


Why should I care?

Please ignore any invaluable comments.

wegevv:


I’m not sure there is scientific all conclusive evidence that God exists. I don’t believe that is how God intended “faith” to work. There also isn’t scientific all conclusive evidence that God does not exist.

Now many Christians have their own personal encounters that is enough for them. Imagine experiencing what Paul is described to have experienced in the Bible. That would be enough individual evidence for many. It certainly was for Paul.

These testimonies are not enough to conclusively prove to everyone that God exists but they do encourage others who then go on to find their own individual experiences and faith. I’m sure you’ve heard many testimonies and while they obviously won’t prove anything to you try put yourself in that person’s shoes next time.

For me I’ve also found that the Bible is more correct about many things (inter gender relations, tolerance, attitude under subjugation, etc) than the mainstream ideology atheists tend to subscribe to. I used to buy into many liberal ideology (e.g. blank slate theory) that majority of atheist in the west subscribe to. But I’ve realised many of these are idealistic thinking not built on truth. And finding the truth has led me back to the scripture and God. Life makes a lot more sense now and I could not be happier

Ultimately Christians can’t answer all the questions. Paul himself admitted in Corinthians that “we only see a reflection as in a mirror” and we only “know in part”. We don’t have all the answers and that’s okay. It’s not like science can either

The fact that people are so interested in 'scientific' proof of God's existence is rather astonishing (although if you open your eyes and look, there is)

Atheists will want to see scientific proof of God's existence, Christians will mostly have spiritual proof.

The only universal medium to use as prove is now the healings, prophecies and so on where the Spiritual immediately impacts the physical/scientific and yet, Atheists still dismiss it as this and that.... (And still ask for 'proof')

Workch:


personal encounters are not reliable. Don't even depend on personal encounters as humans are not as reliable as you think.

This very statement should prompt all Christians that care to respond, to avoid using much strength on this man.

What you mean here is that if I heal you of your lungs disease (personal encounter), it's still not reliable and you won't believe in God because of that? You've said many vain words, but I don't know how many Atheists agree with this one...

vdestro:


We know, it's a bastard's lullaby which you people use to try give yourselves comfort through your tears.

Can you please calm down?
What's a Bastard's Lullaby here?
Was this thread titled 'Come And Be Forced To Become A Christian'?

Allow people to express their thoughts freely here, or are you saying this person did wrong to follow the topic of this thread?

Again I ask, what makes you better now?

Wilgrea7:


I agree that everything that begins too exist has a "cause". I'm not quick to call that cause a creator mainly because of the religious connotations the word entails.



How exactly is the bible proof of a God? I'm genuinely curious.




Miracles prove nothing other than the fact that something unexplainable happened. Magic, miracles, juju, whatever name you decide to call them. these seemingly unnatural events prove nothing other than the fact that something we didn't think could happen, indeed happened.

If I vanish before your eyes, and reappear, what exactly does that prove other than the vanishing I just did?




Any particular evidence of this thing you call "God" being inside us? How did you arrive at that conclusion?



I've seen a lot of theists try to attack the big bang and evolution. Both of which have reasonable evidence doing for them, like the cosmic microwave background in the case of the big bang, and fossil and radiometric data in the case of evolution.

But here's the thing you guys fail to understand. Proving the big bang and evolution wrong (I'll be more than happy for you to do so), doesn't automatically validate your religious stories.

Any, and I mean ANY statement or claim that tries to explain how the natural world came to be, needs to do so with EVIDENCE. In the absence of evidence, these claims will be baseless, and cannot be taken seriously.

You are still yet to provide any evidence for a god, talkless of YOUR god.



What healing?

Yes I'm exhausted so I may no longer have the strength to answer line by line (lol I didn't expect so much comments)

But yes you've agreed that everything starts because of a 'cause'
And that dissapearing and appearing happened because of a 'cause'
And the miracles, are they natural? No. But there is a 'cause'.
And I'm asking atheists to believe that that cause is nothing natural. That's all. I think we're clear.

MaxInDHouse:


I just want to clear something that's hidden to billions of people today!

When the group name "CHRISTIANS" is mentioned many often say they're not Christians but they believe in Jesus of Nazareth.

Let it be known that this didn't just start with Muhammad some 570 years after Jesus rather it started right in the first century when Jesus' disciples were still alive:

Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort! 1John 2:18-19


YES anyone claiming they believe in Jesus are part of religions under Christendom including Islam!

The secret back then is what you just read in verse 19 of the quoted scripture:

They wanted to be called believers in Jesus but they're nursing the feeling that practicers of what Jesus commanded are zombies so they went forming their own religion according to what they want and gather teachers to teach them what they want to hear as long as it's OK or generally accepted in their community! 2Timothy 4:3-4

Wow. Thank you for showing me this.
I never imagined it this way, especially pertaining to Muslims.

ReacherSaidNoth:
If it isn't the new resident religious section dumbass.

What is the correlation between a tenancy agreement and the silly fables in the bible?

Things Fall Apart is simply historical fiction, or do you think Okonkwo is not a fictional character?

And textbooks are also books making claims, of course you can determine whether or not the claims in them are true or not using resources other than the same textbooks.

If a math textbook says 2+2 is 4, that is a claim that can be tested to prove its validity.

In your Storybook the bible, you are told tales of pregnant virgins, talking animals and other ridiculous crap, those are all empty claims as there is no way outside of the book that such things can be shown to occur in reality.

I'm just concerned with the mathematics aspect. Sorry but maths can prove and disprove itself, it depends on the level you're using to make calculations
1+1 can be proven as 2 and 1+1 can still be proven as 1

Then the reason I don't even need to read anything else or respond is the insults... 'Dumbass'... Say everything again, ask many questions but omit insults... Are you saying you'll shoot me dead if we were arguing face to face?

preciousee17:


This very statement should prompt all Christians that care to respond, to avoid using much strength on this man.

What you mean here is that if I heal you of your lungs disease (personal encounter), it's still not reliable and you won't believe in God because of that? You've said many vain words, but I don't know how many Atheists agree with this one...

If you heal me of lung infection, how do we know that it's your healing that cured me or that it's not just my immune system that fought it or something I eat or took or just placebo effect?

The only way to find out is if we tell you heal several people with lung infections at a controlled environment so we can measure the potency of your healing prowess.
We will make a category of some people the control ( you won't pray for these people), then we can now compare the success rate of those you prayed for as against the control to be able to know for sure that it's your prayer that worked.

preciousee17:


You actually searched Google for the answer to this question... Wow, so desperate

How did I know it's strawman if I don't know it already. I just want to show you to stop arguing in that manner.
It's illogical

preciousee17:


Till you confront the things you have been asked, I'm not sure I can take your argument seriously anymore. Already you've said the same thing over and over again and I'd love to hear something new.

In this case, we Christians can see
You Atheists can't see.
How do we prove to you that the moon exists?

Don't dodge this

The blind man and the moon analogy is a faulty equivalent fallacy and a strawman at the same time.

It's a faulty equivalence because the blind man is convinced that he's blind while I'm not convinced that I'm blind with respect to spirituality. The blind man knows that some people can actually see the physical but he's incapable of doing it, in my case I don't think the spiritaul relam eixst.

You don't have to convince the blind man that the physical relam exist before telling him about the moon, he is convinced, even if he cannot see it, he feels it and hears it. You have to convince me first the spiritual realm exist, because I have not seen any evidence that it does.

So the analogy is fallacious and so illogical

benodic:


Stories like this for example are what encourages atheism.

If a believe in God or religion can drive me to lay my hands on my fellow human being to the extent of even killing him or her, then I am better off without one.
Remain blessed

Noted.

Again, people/news portals tend to broadcast more of the bad side of things generally.

News like massive charity visits by the same Muslims hasn't gotten this much public attention

And, there are extremists to everything
Certain people will kill you if you're not an atheist like them
Certain people will kill you if you're not white or black like them
Certain people will kill you if you're not LGBTQ like them

You can't really use extremists as a reason not to accept an idea. Almost every idea has extremists.

preciousee17:


Oh, how did weapons of war get invented?
War tactics? Instruments of music? Haven't you heard in the news that the remains of Noah's Ark was discovered? (That kind of news won't be publicized and that was the first ship in the world). What of clothes? Bells etc. All those things from the time of the Bible, isn't it only passing through redesign now?

There's no single verifiable evidence in science that the Noah's ark ever existed, if you have one, you can show us and let's analyze it.
And if you believe a news of wooden remnant of an ark surviving for more than 4000 years then we may have to take you on basic science class on decomposition by saprophytes.

Workch:
So you think you understand the bible better than those who actually read it and say it's not consistent with reality?

Is the bible consistent with the reality of life in your opinion?

What you are saying now is not what I said. Please quote me by my words so we can have a healthy argument

Workch:
So you think you understand the bible better than those who actually read it and say it's not consistent with reality?

Is the bible consistent with the reality of life in your opinion?

Yes and yes.

Workch:
is the Bible consistent with reality?

Yes. Expatiate further please.

preciousee17:


Yes. Expatiate further please.

So tell me how I can confirm that a virgin was able to conceive without fertilization in "reality".

Reality is the keyword

preciousee17:


What you are saying now is not what I said. Please quote me by my words so we can have a healthy argument

in reality, do you think that 2 kangaroos, Emu birds, cassowaries and Kiwi can hop accross Indian Ocean or a arctic to join Noah's ark 4,000 Years ago in the middle east and back to Australia and new Zealand without a trace of that happening?

Workch:
The problem with most Christians is that they think that they know everything and can explain everything with the Bible. What we mean by control environment are environmental parameters that can be manipulated to test a phenomenon. For example, if I say that water melts at 0 degree celcius provided pressure is maintained, the environmental condition are the pressure and temperate.

Let's don't go scientific, so you can actually get it, if I tell you that humans ca walk, this is not true in every environmental condition. Humans can only walk at a certain environmental condition like availability of a walking platform, favorable gravity and pressure. So thr test the hypothesis "humans can walk" you have to control the environment to meet those standards to prove it.

If you want to test a pastor healing cancer, on what conditions that are "measurable" should we test it (measurable is a key word).


Again, you Christians think that you know a lot.
Faith is not a measurable factor, it's not even an environmental factor one can deliberately control. You need to bring yourself down and learn.
If you specify a measurable condition to test it, then we can measure the potency of miracles else it becomes a factor of probabilities and most times it's not statistically significant.


Again, the reason science dont take all these seriously is because you are yet to provide real entities to measure. You can't keo making abstract things up and expect us to take it seriously.
If you say faith determines the level of potency of the miracle, then the question will be:

1. How can we measure faith?
2. What method are we going to accurately measure faith?
3. Then how can we now test the measured level of faith with the potency of miracles.

Without giving us detailed methods to do these, I don't think we can Take you seriously

Remember I don't even take you seriously in this argument, so right now I'm just responding to the three questions because I can, and not because I want you to take Christianity Seriously

Now
1. Faith is believe in God.
Do you believe rain will fall tomorrow?
(Yes because God can make rain to fall). That's what faith should be.
(Erm, I'm not sure, it depends). There's no faith there.
(Yes because it's rainy season). There's no faith here.

[My question in return: Do you understand this?]

2. You mean a physical method? Sike! Faith is not physical.
Do you believe rain is going to fall tomorrow?
(Yes because God can cause rain to fall).
Take that believe, put it on a scale of 1-10.
I think that's the measurement you'll need

3. On a scale of 1-10, how strong was your faith? Was it up to 1? Congratulations, you have qualified!
Now is it God's will?
Perhaps yes.
Then the miracle occurs

Workch:
Prophets, voodoo, mediums are claims and not evidence.

Can you agree with me that must Christians don't know what evidence is?

You people don't know what evidence is

Don't worry, my argument with you just ended 😂
You mean a Prophet tells you that the Euphrates River will dry, thousands of years ago. And now the Euphrates River has suddenly dried up. But for you, that's not an evidence that the prophet is legit? It's only claims...
Happy hunting!

Templee333:
Since the christian bible makes it clear that a good tree cannot produce rotten fruits, what should i do when all i see in christianity is rotten fruits? Wolves in sheep's clothing are the ones in churches. I can't believe in a god who tells you to read a bible but doesn't expect you to practice what is written in that same bible, and yet that bible is said to be the unchanging word of the one true god. What i hate most in my life is falsehood,yet, christians are liars and realy realy realy bloody hypocrites! I better stay away from them just for the sake of peace.

I have been following your thread where you sought for truth in Eckankar, BCS, JW, Wind of Change. All man-made religion.

You are a truth seeker. You won't find what you seek in religion. Human created religion and humans are hypocritical in nature, deceiving themselves.

You need to know the Truth. He is a person. It is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Truth.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, and one with God didn't start a religion. His followers were following Christ lifestyle to the extent they were called CHRIST-ians. Most people today are not Christ followers. They just bear the title Christians and will be rejected by Jesus Christ on the last day because they are sinners and evil doers. They lie, steal, fornicate, commit adultery, and many other sins and evils.

Leave them to their self deception. You be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus will reveal himself to you through the Holy Spirit.

God is real. Jesus is the only way to God. Other ways will lead you to Hell.

You can add me on WhatsApp. I will be eager to pray with you and share Jesus Christ, The Trruth of God, with you.

LordReed:


You claimed that the miracles have been repeated in a controlled environment so can you change water to wine or can anybody anywhere change water to wine in a controlled environment?

All I want to know is can "poisons have been turned to normal food" be done in a controlled environment?

Yes. Let me give you an example.
A Christian missionary travels to an unknown land to preach
He is later caught, beaten and locked up
And later given a poisoned food to eat, and he eats it (most especially unknowingly).
If it is not the will of God that that man should die, then that poisoned food will have no effect on him

preciousee17:


Remember I don't even take you seriously in this argument, so right now I'm just responding to the three questions because I can, and not because I want you to take Christianity Seriously

Now
1. Faith is believe in God.
Do you believe rain will fall tomorrow?
(Yes because God can make rain to fall). That's what faith should be.
(Erm, I'm not sure, it depends). There's no faith there.
(Yes because it's rainy season). There's no faith here.

My question in return: Do you understand this?

I don't believe that rain falls, I know it. Believe only comes in when there's no evidence.
I don't have to believe that if put my television on, provided the television is okay and there is electricity that it will work, I know it. I will do it 1000 times and it will work 1000 times.
Faith does not work that way, faith deals with uncertainties, knowledge doesn't.
So you should be able to differentiate knowledge from belief, they are to different things.

2. You mean a physical method? Sike! Faith is not physical.
Do you believe rain is going to fall tomorrow?
(Yes because God can cause rain to fall).
Take that believe, put it on a scale of 1-10.
I think that's the measurement you'll need

I know faith belief, I don't work with beliefs because it's prone with evidence that there are errors in it.

3. On a scale of 1-10, how strong was your faith? Was it up to 1? Congratulations, you have qualified!
Now is it God's will?
Perhaps yes.
Then the miracle occurs

I don't do faith, I'm agnostic. It's either I know or I don't and it's only evidence that brings knowledge.
I cant say how much of faith I had but I'm sure that I doubted a lot of things as a Christian, they weren't adding up because there was no evidence for them. Surprisingly, I started seeing a lot of evidence against them after

LordReed:


You claimed that the miracles have been repeated in a controlled environment so can you change water to wine or can anybody anywhere change water to wine in a controlled environment?

All I want to know is can "poisons have been turned to normal food" be done in a controlled environment?

It is obvious you haven't experienced the power of God. You are too familiar with the power of men that you think God is as limited as man. Correct your thinking.

God can do the incredible...He is limitlessly powerful.

preciousee17:


Don't worry, my argument with you just ended 😂
You mean a Prophet tells you that the Euphrates River will dry, thousands of years ago. And now the Euphrates River has suddenly dried up. But for you, that's not an evidence that the prophet is legit? It's only claims...
Happy hunting!

lol, you still don't know how to find evidence. It's not how evidence works.

Don't be gullible

Bizzyman:


I have been following your thread where you sought for truth in Eckankar, BCS, JW, Wind of Change. All man-made religion.

You are a truth seeker. You won't find what you seek in religion. Human created religion and humans are hypocritical in nature, deceiving themselves.

You need to know the Truth. He is a person. It is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Truth.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, and one with God didn't start a religion. His followers were following Christ lifestyle to the extent they were called CHRIST-ians. Most people today are not Christ followers. They just bear the title Christians and will be rejected by Jesus Christ on the last day because they are sinners and evil doers. They lie, steal, fornicate, commit adultery, and many other sins and evils.

Leave them to their self deception. You be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus will reveal himself to you through the Holy Spirit.

God is real. Jesus is the only way to God. Other ways will lead you to Hell.

You can add me on WhatsApp. I will be eager to pray with you and share Jesus Christ, The Trruth of God, with you.

Thank you for this contribution. A true Nairalander has spotted another (I'm new tho)
If the young man has searched for truth for so long, I pray he finally finds it. Let his labour not end in vain

Bizzyman:


It is obvious you haven't experienced the power of God. You are too familiar with the power of men that you think God is as limited as man. Correct your thinking.

God can do the incredible...He is limitlessly powerful.

Ok I want the god to show the limitless power by turning water to wine in a controlled environment.

preciousee17:


Yes. Let me give you an example.
A Christian missionary travels to an unknown land to preach
He is later caught, beaten and locked up
And later given a poisoned food to eat, and he eats it (most especially unknowingly).
If it is not the will of God that that man should die, then that poisoned food will have no effect on him

I didn't ask for hypothetical or imaginary example, I want a practical demonstration in a controlled environment.

LordReed:


I didn't ask for hypothetical or imaginary example, I want a practical demonstration in a controlled environment.

simple, I will be convinced as well if anyone can do this

LordReed:


I didn't ask for hypothetical or imaginary example, I want a practical demonstration in a controlled environment.

Of course there are lots of documented miracles, videos too

Why don't you believe those ones first?

preciousee17:


Of course there are lots of documented miracles, videos too

Why don't you believe those ones first?

I am addressing your statement that miracles have been reproduced in controlled environments, that is what I am interested in. If you have videos of a miracle taking place in a controlled environment put a link here let's watch it.

Workch:
simple, I will be convinced as well if anyone can do this

Most likely they will shift the goal post.